8 bars X2: A-flat (Start on 3d bent all the way down) A-flat scale: (3d"', 3d', 4b, 4d', 4overblow, 5d, 6b, 6d') Just play along the scale etc.
Bridge: 2 bars: G7 (2d,3d,4d,5d)
2 bars: C7 (1b,2b,3b,3d') (blues third or B-flat)
2 bars: F7 (simply 2d'') just play tonics to begin with
1 bar: B-flat7 (3d') "blue third"
1 bar: E-flat7 (4 overblow)
Then: 8 bars A-flat again
I have heard Adam say before somewhere that his brain just wasn't wired for jazz, or something like that. I thought this was the perfect introduction for anybody who wanted to learn jazz. You just start playing the tonics then venture into playing other notes, what works what doesn't. Just like the blues and how one learns the 12 bar. Plus this just swings and I think harmonica in a swing band like this would be killer. Good day :)
Do you only play the major scale over the A-flat chord? Are the others the chord notes, or are they some kind of scales too?
You don't have to explain all jazz theory ;), a hint in the right direction would be nice though (if it's not too much work). Otherwise I'll just buy a theory book sometime.
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
The "bridge" simply follows the circle of fifths, going backwards over to the flats: G (1 #), then C (no # or flats), F (1 flat), B-flat (2 flats), and E-flat (3 flats). These scales are dominant scales. The G7, C7, F7, etc. are all dominant chords simply with the 1,3,5,7th. All they are is major scales with a flat 7th. So, the 7th notes in the C scale is B, bring it down a semi-tone = B-flat. 7th note of G is F#, so F. Oh I forget: this is the best reference I've found to simply find all the chords tones:
http://www.piano-chords.net/
on the A-flat there are many options and it is actually a little more complex with underlying changes BUT, it is all based off A-flat. Just start playing an A'flat and see which notes sound good and sound bad. kinda like the blues :)
Here's an even simpler form:
This progression starts once the "head starts" after the intro of "du dum pa dum dum" 16 measures: A-flat (3d"')
2 measures: G7 (2d)
2measures: C7 (1b)
2 measures: F7 (2d")
1 measure: Bflat7 ("blues third")
1 measure: Eflat7 (4 overblow)
8 measure Aflat (3d"')
Just play the tonics and follow the changes. Then once that is accomplished. Try to play the 3rd of each chord tone for the changes, then the 5th, etc.
Buddha your ruinin my mojo here and missing the whole point of my post. I am NOT teaching how to solo but to help provide a STEPPING stones approach to playing jazz, and conceptualizing it, for those who may have an interest. This is to get FAMILIAR with the chords. Then play the music. Just like Einsteins theory, simplicity should rule the day. Of course arpeggiating a solo is terrible and simply playing the tonic is not music, BUT we all must say "mama" and "dada" before we say "supercalifragalisticexpealidocious" And if you have read the following sentence "Then once that is accomplished. Try to play the 3rd of each chord tone for the changes, then the 5th, etc." I wouldn't have to clarify. This is how most people learn jazz, and simply experimenting, but then comments like yours come along that make jazz seem unaccessible until you have a completed the grad program and written the thesis. One must understand the tonics before they get familiar with the 3rds, 5ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths.
I have to disagree a little. Playing the root is for bassists, what you SHOULD be doing is learning arpeggios and scales based on what chords you are playing. And, why start with a song with so many changes? You yourself are speaking of simplicity. Why not first go into blues tunes with a II-V-I turnaround? Then slowly go up from there, it only makes sense.
I don't know what we are disagreeing on? I am simply trying to show a different methodology for learning jazz instead of the "2-5-1 first" then everything else. If it doesn't work for you then that's fine. Many people don't like that way and when I taught clarinet, most responded much better to simply playing the tonics with the song and hearing themselves following with the changes. From there I could see things click in peoples minds. If you think how you ACTUALLY learn blues when you started out, playing in second position, you were hammering the tonic. Then everything extended out from there and you didn't simply play 2d, 4b, and 4d. In reality rhythm changes are the simplest changes, an A section in one key, then the Bridge which simply follows the circle of fifths. Whatever floats your boat though.
"then the Bridge which simply follows the circle of fifths"
Not trying to knit-pick, but it's actually the circle of fourths that it follows. If you go backwards(counter-clockwise)around the circle of fifths, you get the circle of fourths. But I understand why you would describe it as "the circle of fifths backwards", because most people here are going to be familiar with the circle of fifths.
"I wasn't hammering on the tonic, I am quite sure I was hammering on the flat five. "
That would mean you were hammering the 5OB on the V chord(assuming you were following the changes, which is what he's talking about), and most beginners aren't using OBs when they first learn blues.
Emphasizing/hammering the tonic sounds, and works, much better in blues than it does in jazz. So when you first learn blues, most people emphasize the tonic because it's a common thing to do in blues. If you're playing jazz, on the other hand, emphasing the root isn't going to sound "jazzy", you really want to focus on the other chord tones.
Yes Zack you were a bad example. I think Little Walter is a better example of why tonic notes were not just invented for bassists:
Yes Ryan thanks for knit-picking. You know, when someone learns ONE piece of information, everything else can relate to that and the circle of the fourths is a perfect example as it's the "circle of fifths backwards". Conceptualizing is helpful. To me at least.
"Emphasizing/hammering the tonic sounds, and works, much better in blues than it does in jazz. So when you first learn blues, most people emphasize the tonic because it's a common thing to do in blues. If you're playing jazz, on the other hand, emphasing the root isn't going to sound "jazzy", you really want to focus on the other chord tones."
Again, I wasn't saying "playing the tonics is how to sound jazzy in jazz music". Knowing all the chords tones is essential, but a good place to start is the tonic of each chord. Then while extending each chord out, the relationships become clearer between all the chord tones.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2010 9:47 PM
My vote is to learn the roots of the changes first. Why? Simple. If you don't yet know how to follow the roots of the changes you probably won't yet be able to think about playing the 3rds or 7ths.
MichaelAndrewLo - thanks for the post, a challenging exercise for most blues-based harp players. I'm curious why you picked a C harp, though - have you tried a Bb?
With the C you're starting on 9th position, then playing 2nd, 1st, 12th, 11th, 10th over the bridge. A Bb would be starting in 11th, then 4th, 3rd etc
I haven't tried either but it seems to be an easier approach.
I'm not trying to ruin your mojo, but if you're talking jazz and advising to start with root tones, you're going to create a lot of bad habits.
When I see a chord Cm7 I immediately think Bb and Eb then make a choice from there I never even think to play the Root C. Why? because as Zack said, that's going to be covered by another instrument. It's best to think in layers.
I understand what you are trying to do with your method but it's just as easy to think in 3rd and 7ths juxtaposed to roots. Learning to think in roots first is part of the process that simply isn't necessary. You can fast track your progress by superceding the root tones. It the same thing with reading tab vs standard notation. It takes the same amount of work but learning tab eventually takes you to a dead end and then you have to do the work over. ---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Hey I like MAL. Michael or Andrew, either way. As you say Buddha "no fear" so why fear learning the root of the chord first, it's not as if that is the end all and be all of learning, it is a stepping stone. A world class player like yourself has so much information ingrained and does things naturally without even thinking about it that it might be hard for you to understand that the "3rd" "7th" etc. is non-sense to a person new to this stuff. Usually when you say a "Cm7", it is easier for a person to grasp that C is in that chord. So play C, and that is one note that works. Now, experiment! E, no bad note. E-flat, SURE, but the initial chord tone provides a starting place. Of course, you can simply say "E-flat is the 3rd of Cm7 so play that" and it may seem simple to you but to many people it IS confusing and the process of self-discovery from the starting point has a greater impact to the person learning jazz than simply being told: this is the 3rd, it works. And, it also fosters a sense of experimentation in jazz that is so necessary.
"MichaelAndrewLo - thanks for the post, a challenging exercise for most blues-based harp players. I'm curious why you picked a C harp, though - have you tried a Bb? With the C you're starting on 9th position, then playing 2nd, 1st, 12th, 11th, 10th over the bridge. A Bb would be starting in 11th, then 4th, 3rd etc
I haven't tried either but it seems to be an easier approach. "
@ Gamblershand, yeah a B-flat could work. I was just working specifically hard on my A-flat major scale yesterday cause I am working on the 12 major and minor scale on a C. Either way though, it is good to learn all the scales cause, depending on the song of course, you will likely end up having to play in difficult keys far away from the original instrument key.
Here comes another question: Do you learn the chord changes by heart or do you hear them 'on the spot'? The same with the notes that you play: Do you always think, this is Cm7 so the 3rd is Eb, or do you simply hear/'feel' it? ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
"the "3rd" "7th" etc. is non-sense to a person new to this stuff."
This is just my opinion, but if someone doesn't yet understand this, they aren't ready for jazz yet. This is very basic music theory and jazz requires one to have a good understanding of theory (there are of course a few exceptions where people have learned it all by ear without knowing any theory, but most people do need to know the theory). If someone doesn't yet understand what a "3rd" or "7th" is, they should start out with something more basic, like the 12 bar blues changes. Once they start learning to play blues they can learn theory and how it relates to the chord changes. Once they've got a good grasp on that they can start moving on to more complex harmonies found in jazz.
I think the framework of jazz can be used to teach jazz. How else will they understand it and be ready for it unless it is taught from simple to complex? This way it is much more relevant and interesting.
Learning to do just do roots is like an easy way out. And, what does Juke prove? EVERYONE goes back to the tonic at some point, hence it being called the 'tonic.' And, what does overblows have to do with this? So what if the 4-draw is the root of the five chord, that doesn't make it the tonic of the key you are playing in. A tonic is the beginning note of a scale, and the 4th and 5th note are the sub-dominant and the dominant. A ROOT note, however, is based on a chord, not a scale. Gb7b9 is not a scale whatsoever, it is a chord. The root being Gb. So you would play the Gb chord and then add the 7th and the b9. This does not mean the tonic is Gb, though, because the song could be in G or it could be in F. It is totally different.
Zack, I think the terms tonic, subdominant, and dominant also apply to chords. Like you said it applies to scale degrees, but it also serves to label triads built on those scale degrees as they naturally occur in whatever key. ie in the key of D, an F#min triad is not only the iii chord, but also the mediant chord. A Dmaj would be the tonic chord. Even if I'm wrong its fuckin' stupid and way easier to refer to both chords and scale degrees by their respective numbers.
Also, I don't listen to too much jazz so I don't really know that much about jazz structure yet, but if the bass is playing chord roots the whole time that would probably sound really boring. I know jazz is all about different 7th chords but there has to some inversions...I would have guessed that you would see way more inversions in jazz theory than classical theory.
Well you said earlier quite clearly "Playing the root is for bassists" so I thought I would provide evidence to the contrary. And no not "EVERYONE goes back to the tonic at some point", which was Buddhas point. The 3rd and 7th are better. And the 12 bar blues is based off the 1-4-5 CHORDS of a certain key. And actually you are way off in saying "So what if the 4-draw is the root of the five chord, that doesn't make it the tonic of the key you are playing in." It ISN'T the tonic of the initial key, but it IS the tonic of the chord (sub dom & dom as u said) that extends from there. That is the whole point of chord changes, the chord tones, and thus the tonic notes, and applicable scales, are changing, based off the initial key.
"Learning to just do roots is like an easy way out" .... Ok I'm seriously tired of repeating myself:
Again, I wasn't saying "playing the tonics is how to sound jazzy in jazz music". Knowing all the chords tones is essential, but a good place to start is the tonic of each chord. Then while extending each chord out, the relationships become clearer between all the chord tones.
please read all the posts before you decide to be oppositional defiant in your approach.
" A ROOT note, however, is based on a chord, not a scale. Gb7b9 is not a scale whatsoever, it is a chord. The root being Gb. So you would play the Gb chord and then add the 7th and the b9. This does not mean the tonic is Gb, though, because the song could be in G or it could be in F. It is totally different."
Your understanding of theory seems to be off. The initial key is what the changes are based off of. They are called "CHANGES" because the chords are changing, and the tonic, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc. become the tonal center so during a Gb7b9 chord, the Gb IS the tonic of the chord while it is being played. If the song is in G, and the chord "CHANGES" change to Gb7b9, the tonic of that chord is Gb, not G (G is the flat 9, an octave above). I thought this was pretty simple? Chords ARE based off of scales. C7 is a c dominant scale etc. Chords and scales are interrelated FYI.
what is the point of "dumbing down" an exercise? Almost everyone of you knows how to see one note and think of another. Need proof.
What key harp do you use to play in the key of G in 2nd position?
MAL, I was going to leave this alone, but you're teaching very bad habits for everybody who reads this thread. Only people who don't know how to teach nor play would come up with such a scheme. Are you in that category? I hope not.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
"So what if the 4-draw is the root of the five chord, that doesn't make it the tonic of the key you are playing in. "
I never claimed otherwise. It's not necessary for you to put words in my mouth, I'm capable of doing so myself. But thanks for the unnecessary lesson.
"And, what does overblows have to do with this? "
The reason I brought up the overblow was that we were discussing what notes to emphasize on the changes (the root, the 3rd, the 7th, etc.), you claimed that as a complete beginner you emphasized the flat 5. I'm sure you did emphasize the flat 5, in relation to the I chord, but if you were following the changes(which is what we are talking about), you would have needed to play the 5OB in order to play/emphasize the flat 5 when changing to the IV chord. I doubt this is what you were doing, in fact, as a complete beginner I doubt you were playing the changes. Like most beginners, I'd be willing to bet, you were playing modaly(or the cross harp blues scale) over the changes(which of course works quite well, and is an acceptable option for blues), as opposed to following the changes. So whether or not you were emphasizing the 4draw bend wasn't really relevant to the point Michael was making, he was refering to what scale degrees to use with the changes(not to say that I agree with him, I don't think emphasizing the root is the best way to start learning jazz).
When most people first start to learn how to play the changes in blues, they will start by emphasizing the roots(of course there are other notes that can be emphasized as well). This is acceptable in blues because emphaisng the root is a common thing to do in blues and it can sound good(but this is not true in jazz). So when most beginners start playing the changes, they will hit the 4 blow alot when changing to the IV chord. And when they go to the V chord they'll hit the 4draw or sometimes the 1-4draw octave, and it can sound good. I believe this is the point Michael was making, but the problem is, while this may work and sound alright in blues, that doesn't mean it's appropriate for jazz.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 4:30 PM
I thought I've already addressed this Buddha, but what are you talking about? What "bad habits"? AGAIN, I am not teaching how to play jazz specifically as I am providing a framework to get started from. Please post another thread to conceptualize and teach rhythm changes in a simple manner that is easy to grasp if you think mine is inadequate. Why make things "unneccessarily complex"? As far as teaching and playing, on clarinet I had no problem teaching nor learning and playing jazz. harmonica, I have not developed those skills fully yet. Understanding Einsteins work can be initially simple, and in reality it is. Getting into the finer details is, of course, much more complex, but the initial conceptualization helps to 1. give motivation to learn everything one needs to know, and 2. a larger framework with which to work. My old teacher Joe Wimmer taught me this way as well, and he's been doing it for 60 years. I was able to learn everything I needed to know from this framework. Grouping everybody who has a different framework for conceptualization as not knowing how to "teach or play" shows insecurity and disrespect.
German, I think it's kind of like muscle memory, you sort of just remember. Lots of Jazz you can't just do on the spot unless you want a real challenge.
Instead of telling people to do the roots why not say do the third or the seventh? It's the same idea, but much more satisfying.
Yes, Buddha, see we totally agree! If that's ALL they learned and all they did, then that's terribly bad. BUT, that is NOT what I said to do to play jazz.
I wrote this: "Just play the tonics and follow the changes. Then once that is accomplished. Try to play the 3rd of each chord tone for the changes, then the 5th, etc."
It's an exercise to go through ALL the chord tones to familiarize oneself with the notes in each chord. For example: First time you listen to the tune, listening for the changes. Then 2nd time, play the tonics, then 3rd time, play the 3rds for each chord, then the 5th played through. This exercise helps to become familiar with the framework. It is a STEPPING stone framework to BEGIN learning jazz. Ultimately everyone has to teach themselves the information to play jazz and frame it in a way that makes sense to them. Hence the title. This a song (not songs..) that someone could use to learn jazz if they wanted, as a study guide.
Zack, sorry I don't understand your answer, i.e. the relevance to my question.
To the whole root-3rd/7th-subject... Everybodys oppinions were stated over and over, could we drop it? I'm positive everybody that follows this thread can conclude from it what they think is right.
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
"Here comes another question: Do you learn the chord changes by heart or do you hear them 'on the spot'? The same with the notes that you play: Do you always think, this is Cm7 so the 3rd is Eb, or do you simply hear/'feel' it?"
@ Germanharpist, yes initially you want to memorize the changes, simply listen to the tune count along and try to hear the tonal centers changing. The chord tones of each chord are what should be EMPHASIZED. Passing tones (tones outside of the tonal center) can then be used to create interesting and melodic phrasing. With practice in you develop a vocabulary in each key like you do with blues. Lots of jazz guys will copy licks from each other in the same way blues people do. It is much easier to figure out the licks though once you know the changes. It is certainly an art form to stay WITH the changes and alter the melodic phrasing to reflect the chord changes in jazz. Eventually you do need to simply be able to hear it and feel it and instantly react to the changes to be able to play jazz.
"Zack, sorry I don't understand your answer, i.e. the relevance to my question."
Which of your questions are you talking about? I'm pretty sure he was responding to your question about whether you learn the chord changes by heart or do you hear them 'on the spot'. I agree with his answer, you do have to learn the changes before playing, although some very advanced players are able to hear the changes and immediately identify them but it's a very diffucult skill to aquire. You first learn the changes, and once you've got them down and have practiced a lot, following the changes is similar to "muscle memory" as Zack put it. You just sort of feel the changes coming, but you've already taken the time to learn what the change is.
"To the whole root-3rd/7th-subject... Everybodys oppinions were stated over and over, could we drop it? I'm positive everybody that follows this thread can conclude from it what they think is right."
This is an important subject, if people feel they have something more to say about it I think it's important to discuss. I don't think it should just be dropped because some people are tired of hearing about it and want to talk about something else. If you really think your questions aren't getting enough attention because everyone is busy discussing something else, you can start a whole new topic devoted soley to what you're intersted in.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 3:04 PM
Thanks for the answer Ryan. No it wasn't about my questions not becoming enough attention... ;) but thanks for the concern.
I didn't want to suppress dialogue. I had the impression that all was said and that the discussion started to turn in circles. Personally I learned a lot of this thread and if there is more info to come I'd be very happy.
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 3:11 PM
I agree if people are going to continue to say the exact same things over and over again, the conversation isn't going to go anywhere. Hopefully people will add something new to the conversation (if they choose to continue the debate) as opposed to continually saying "no, this is the best way to do it" and repeating what they already said.
That just seems bogus Buddha. To me and to MANY MANY professional players and teachers teaching jazz. I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.
Here is a good explanation of the technique from a source other than myself.
http://www.jazclass.aust.com/im1.htm#05 it's under "practice"
Jamey abersold is good too, they use this to teach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 3:44 PM
Yes, Zack you are right. Buddha simply said it's not a good idea to practice root tones PERIOD. All the major jazz education systems clearly delineate ALL the chord tones and suggest learning them all, including the roots. This is what I was advocating, like many others framework as well, to learn it all, starting from the root on up. Buddha is saying from the 3rd on up, I guess. Either way, I feel like we are going in circles now. Maybe lets reverse it and pull a "circle of fourths"
I think Buddha is simply speaking of chording. Obviously you need to know the root notes, but you should be avoiding them if other musicians are playing them.
Yes, and how do you know the root notes? You learn it, and play it, and see that other notes sound better by doing a cycle of playing root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. Experimenting is the best instructor. It is not about creating a habit of playing the root note, but rather learning the roots and going from there to other (better) notes. I think becoming familiar with every thing is essential and doesn't create bad habits, but a better understanding.
