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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Getting a good live mix
Getting a good live mix
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joshnat
33 posts
Feb 23, 2010
4:04 PM
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So here's the problem: our band has our own PA and a little mixer. Pretty much all we put through the PA is vocals, even though there are 4 or 8 channels on the mixer (I can't remember how many). Guitar, bass, harp and drums play at stage volume. Since we effectively have a 1 channel PA, it's not that hard to get a good PA mix! The rest of the amps are harder, but sometimes there's a friend in the house who can tell us how the mix is, so someone can turn up/down, etc. as needed.
I would like to go into the PA using my Harp Attack and other pedals, rather than depending on stage volume. I don't love the idea of losing direct control over my volume, as I can't fiddle with the mixer all night. But that's really the problem, which is that unless someone can tell us how the mix is in the house, we never really know what we sound like! And adding a second channel to the PA more than doubles the complexity, it seems to square it.
Any suggestions from the vets out there on how to get a good mix when you can't hear what's happening in the front of the house?
By the way, this is a fun article I found about soundmen.
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Jim Rumbaugh
160 posts
Feb 23, 2010
7:44 PM
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joshnat
My advice is contrary to what most would advise. In my "gigging" band I play bass and do minor vocals. We set the main speakers behind us so we can hear what's coming out. No monitors.
I know most people say,"you get feedback". That depends on the microphones and how they and the speakers are pointed. Here's the idea. For feedback to occur, the volume from the speaker into the mic has to be louder than what you are singing/playing into the mic.
If you are the kind of guy that stands several inches from the mic, this will not work. But for someone that stays on top of the mic, it works good for us.
Is the volume of your band louder than you singing or playing in someone's ear?, If so, speakers behind you will not work, otherwise I say try it.
Oh, and having all matching mics helps a LOT. Mis matched mics are HARD to balance. And some "harp mics" are nasty for feedback.
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Bluefinger
108 posts
Feb 24, 2010
4:10 AM
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I would advise gainst putting the mics in front of the PA indeed. Having the PA speakers in front of you will allow for a much lower stage volume which is the key to playing with dynamics. Variing distance between the mouth and the mic is important to balance the volume and avoid overloading the PA during loud vocal passages. Having the PA speakers behind you if you run an amplified harmonica through it sounds like trouble to me as well.
Basically you have two choices if you don't want to rely on the house PA and sound engeneer:
1) you do the mix yourself. The advantage is that you can adjust things the way you want it. All you have to do is send somebody of the band down and let him give directions on how to set up the others. Then somebody else has to do it while his stuff is dialed in. The problem is, that this is done while the room is empty. When the place is packed, the sound will change due to the changed room accoustics and noise level.
2) Have somebody with you who dials you all in and does adjustment during the show if neded. The mix is out of your hands now so it should be somebody you trust.
Our rule of thumb is to adjust everything to a pleasant stage level and then send everything through the PA that isn't loug enough down there. If there is a house PA (and most of the times there is one) we use it and if they have a sound engeneer, we are happy to accept his service. Fact is, you can never tell from stage how things sound out front right now so chances are that you mess it up anyway.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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GamblersHand
167 posts
Feb 24, 2010
5:16 AM
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Use a long lead and wander out in front of the band. If you're plugging directly into the board then perhaps a DI box will avoid causing trip hazards to you and others
As long as you're cupping well - and you're not directly in front of the speakers - you shouldnt have feedback problems doing that.
And you can then check the balance of the rest of the band, too.
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MrVerylongusername
912 posts
Feb 24, 2010
5:35 AM
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We used to do it that way too, except on a radio mic. I've a fair amount of experience running PAs so naturally the band looked to me at soundchecks to set up the gain structure. Problem was I also front the band, so making changes on stage became more complicated.
Live sound changes as the room fills. Audiences soak up a lot of sound, they also make a lot of noise! You notice that some freq need boosting, and others need cutting. You can also find that an empty room might need no additional reverb/delay, but things become flat once the punters are in.
As our band grew (we've had 10 on the stage at some gigs) I started to realise how difficult it is to juggle a full band mix, front the band and keep the momentum of the set going (we hate gaps between songs).
Find someone who knows how to mix properly if you can. Pay them a fair cut of the money; it's another mouth to feed, but if they do the job properly it'll pay-off with more return gigs and private bookings. We contacted a local training studio and asked if they had any students who wanted live mixing experience. Once they knew we were paying, we had no problem getting two very competent engineers to work with us.
Having our own soundman is also really useful when using someone else's PA. We've found having our guy around to explain exactly what we want in the soundguy's language makes for a more positive experience.
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joshnat
34 posts
Feb 24, 2010
8:52 AM
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I've been playing wirelessly recently, so I can wander out into the house, but it always seems weird to do this during a performance. The audience wonders what the hell you're going to do (dance, handsprings, sit in someone's lap, etc.) and it's kind of distracting to be playing while walking around like that. It's obviously still an option, though.
Any other best practices?
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Jim Rumbaugh
161 posts
Feb 24, 2010
11:03 AM
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I wont back down from my recomendation, but I may modify it.
How loud do you guys play?? Are you pumping 500 to 1,000 wats or more through the PA? Then yes, get a sound man or someone to mix you down.
How tight is the stage? If you are jammed aqainst the speakers, then get a sound man or run out front with a long chord or your wireless.
I play in 4 piece group, bass, drums, 2 keyboards. One the keyboard players will switch to trumpet with no mic. We run 200 watts(rms) through 2 Bose speakers on a stand. The speakers are ussually about 5 feet behind me and 5 feet to the side. Rarey a problem.
Feedback was more a problem when we had poor equipment, mis-matched mics,and played too loud.
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joshnat
35 posts
Feb 24, 2010
2:08 PM
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Feedback hasn't been a problem when I've been in front of the speakers. But it kind of makes my ears bleed. We do get a bit loud, depending on the room and the crowd.
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congaron
567 posts
Feb 24, 2010
2:57 PM
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This is one of the reasons i decided to go wireless. I can play and listen during sound check. This helps the sound guy or gal understand what mix we want. Usually, a good sound tech will go for a good mix anyway, but we play a lot of places with volunteer or other non-pro sound techs. Getting a good sound check goes a long way, since these folks may not really know what you are looking for in "your Sound." Another thing you can do is give a set list to the sound person to indicate where the solos are and who plays them.
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