KingoBad
201 posts
Mar 10, 2010
9:51 AM
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Ok, so I've been successfully customizing my MBs for a while now. I think they all play wonderfully.
I finally got around to buying a new Bb. Everything is fantastic on it except the 3 draw. While by most harps standards, I suppose it is ok, but it does not sing like my other harps do.
It has been embossed and gapped as I prefer. It gets great resonance played unbent, just dampens when bent.
I have already gone back to check the blow reed. Both blow and draw seem to plink with decent resonance.
Is there something I am missing?
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HarpNinja
255 posts
Mar 10, 2010
10:01 AM
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Gapping. 99% is gapping. You'll have to play around. It sucks and is time consuming, but that's what it is.
FWIW, I have been slowly switching over to MB's this year and am working on a Bb right now. All I have done is adjusted gaps...no arcing, embossing, or other crazy stuff I do for overbends. It plays fantastic. MB's really are the best harps for mods!
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Mike Fugazzi
vocals/harmonica
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jonsparrow
2556 posts
Mar 10, 2010
10:08 AM
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ya its the gap. an the 3 hole is allways the trickiest for some reason.
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oldwailer
1109 posts
Mar 10, 2010
10:41 AM
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For me, the 3 draw is the best test of the adjustment of a harp--if it sings through the bends, the rest of the harp is a snap to get going.
It can be a tricky little bastard though. . .
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tookatooka
1284 posts
Mar 10, 2010
11:05 AM
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When you say it doesn't sing like your other harps, do you mean it doesn't have the same ringing timbre and sounds dull in comparison?
This is something that bugged me a while ago. I think I've fixed it now but I really don't know what it was that I did that cured it apart from the gapping. I can't believe it was the gapping alone that cured it. Maybe a bit of a burr (too small for me to see) had just cleared itself or maybe my fiddling with the gap somehow caused the arc to optimise for the best sound. Frustrating! Wish I knew.
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HarpNinja
256 posts
Mar 10, 2010
11:06 AM
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It was the gapping that cured it. It can be that touchy.
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Mike Fugazzi
vocals/harmonica
MySpace
YouTube
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Album Ordering
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MP
56 posts
Mar 10, 2010
12:01 PM
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interesting. iv'e been customizing for about a year and that 3 is a mystery. that sucker is tricky. it's frustrating when that puppy doesn't ring out like all get go and match the volume of everything else. i just tweaked an MB deluxe with that problem and wasn't quite sure how i did it. i'm glad to hear it is a typical problem ,and like wailer, that is my acid test.
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KingoBad
202 posts
Mar 10, 2010
1:32 PM
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I have 10 other personally customized MBs that do exactly what I want them to do with the resonance I want. 19 of the holes are pure poetry, but the 3 draw on this Bb is driving me nuts.
I have closed this one down, opened it up, tried variations, checked for burrs and compared it to my other harps which play beautifully. I just can't get it to resonate on the 3 draw bend like my other harps and my previous Bb.
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2010 1:32 PM
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barbequebob
579 posts
Mar 10, 2010
2:23 PM
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During the 80's and up to the mid 90's, a common problem with Hohner harps were bad rivet jobs where it was either not properly centered or it wasn't flush flat on the reed plate. What you may want to do is remove the reed plates from the comb, get a small nail set and small tack hammer, place the nail set on the rivet head, and then gently tap down on the rivet head several times and see what happens. It's not very common with Hohner now, but back from 1981-1995, it was very common.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jonsparrow
2557 posts
Mar 10, 2010
2:51 PM
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jeez you never cease to amaze me.
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barbequebob
583 posts
Mar 10, 2010
3:00 PM
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I got that tip from Frank Huang, brother of classical harp virtuoso Cham-Ber Huang, who just retired, and oh yeah, the owner of Huang Harmonicas (Frank's head of the company), and this was when Frank was a harp tech for Hohner at the time.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
186 posts
Mar 10, 2010
5:55 PM
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When you gap the 3 draw, you've got to also gap the 3 blow to get them "in balance" (for lack of a better term), since it's actually the blow reed that sounds during a bend. If you only pay attention to the draw reed in isolation when gapping, you are only working with half the equation, so you will never get a correct solution.
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MP
58 posts
Mar 10, 2010
7:58 PM
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what he said. also check to see if you haven't inadvertently twisted either the blow or draw. if so,the reed has to be replaced. the first things to go on a reed are the volume,brightness,and overtones. maybe it's dying? maybe not.
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KingoBad
204 posts
Mar 10, 2010
8:58 PM
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This is a brand new harp I am customizing to put into rotation. I am aware of how to gap a harmonica. I am also aware of what reeds are working during a bend. I thought I was clear that I had addressed both in various combinations, but perhaps I wasn't.
The reed(s) is(are) perfectly flat and centered in the slot - as you typically find out whether it is or not when embossing.
Barbequebob... I am going to give that a try for sure! I think that sounds like a solid possibility. I'll let you know how it turns out...
Thank you!
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KingoBad
205 posts
Mar 10, 2010
9:41 PM
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Barbequebob, If we ever meet, I am buying you a giant beer! That did the trick! I also found out that I am not insane.
Thank you very much!
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Andrew
917 posts
Mar 11, 2010
5:14 AM
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My Bb was a toughie. I think it's now OK, but I haven't played it for a while, as my B is now my biggest bugbear!
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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barbequebob
588 posts
Mar 11, 2010
7:18 AM
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Kingobad, I`m glad that helped, but you`d have to substitute Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi for the beer because I don`t drink alcohol. During Hohner`s bad quality years (1981-1995), before I would use them on a gig, I had to do this about a good 70% of the time. That tip will work with any harp with the exception of anything made by Suzuki because their reeds are spot welded rather than riveted.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Joch230
18 posts
Mar 11, 2010
9:06 AM
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hvyi
My understanding is that when you bend on the 3 draw, it's the 3 draw reed making the sound. The only time it would be using the 3 blow reed would be if you were doing an overblow. If I remember correctly, when Adam G. sets up his MB harps, he will adjust the gaps on the 2,3 and 4 draws and I believe the 4, 5 and 6 blow reeds (for overblows). If the overblow adjustment for the blow reeds still isn't what he wants, then he will adjust the 4, 5, and 6 draw reeds to achieve the "balance" you are talking about. But that balance is only needed for overblows.
John
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LeeEdwards
38 posts
Mar 11, 2010
11:26 AM
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Joch230 - When you draw bend the angle of the airstream chokes the draw reed closed and transfers the vibration energy to the blow reed. You can see how this works for yourself by taking the coverplates of a harp. Play a draw bend and whilst holding the bend place your thumb on the draw reed. You'll see that the note still sounds. The same applies for overdraws. For blow bends and overblows the opposite applies for it is the draw reeds that create the pitch.
Gapping every reed is useful to make the harp more responsive to your particular style even if you don't overblow. The reason the blow reed gaps are closed down for overblows is so the blow reed chokes quicker which,in turn, transfers the energy to the draw reed quicker. The draw reed also may then need some adjustment, but the general idea is to make the response of the overbend as instant as you can.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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barbequebob
589 posts
Mar 11, 2010
11:40 AM
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Joch230, LeeEdwards has it absolutely correct. If you want to test it out for yourself, remove both coverplates on any harp, then go for, in this case 3 draw bend, and as soon as you are about to bend, place a finger on 3 blow, and the first thing you'll notice is that the bend doesn't happen. Do the same thing on 9 blow, but this time when doing the bend, place it on the draw reed and the same thing will happen.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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GermanHarpist
1255 posts
Mar 11, 2010
11:52 AM
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LE: "When you draw bend the angle of the airstream chokes the draw reed..." - as far as I know a different angle in airstream never accomplishes anything except bad tone. Isn't it all about variing airpressure and resonance?
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 11:57 AM
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Joch230
19 posts
Mar 11, 2010
1:15 PM
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Thanks Lee and Bob for the detailed explanation. Certainly helps explain why I have such a battle adjusting the 3 hole draw!
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LeeEdwards
39 posts
Mar 11, 2010
1:30 PM
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GermanHarpist - I've edited this post because after reading Harpwrench's post below I realized that my original post was garbage. There is a change in angle of the airstream, but it has no effect on the creation of a bend. You are absolutely right, Resonance Is Key ;)
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 3:05 PM
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Ryan
207 posts
Mar 11, 2010
2:25 PM
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GermanHarpist: Are you familiar with the straw trick, for learning bends and OBs, that Buddha teaches in his video? The straw trick is all about teaching you to change the angle of your air stream. Resonance and air pressure are also important factors, but along with that you are also changing the angle of the air stream (although it's not really something most people consciously think about or notice).
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harpwrench
186 posts
Mar 11, 2010
2:43 PM
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"Angle of airstream" theory is baloney, sorry. If you don't believe me, play your harp upside down or sideways. I've even mounted reeds to the reedplate going the opposite direction from how they are mounted originally, and the harmonica played the same.
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LeeEdwards
40 posts
Mar 11, 2010
4:06 PM
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harpwrench - How easily the obvious can be overlooked. Now that I think of all those players who play upside down (Sonny Terry, Butterfield etc.) It seems quite logical that the angle of the airstream doesn't facilitate the bend. As a harp technician can you recommend any good reading regarding the physics of the harmonica.
"I've even mounted reeds to the reedplate going the opposite direction from how they are mounted originally, and the harmonica played the same."
Do you mean having the blow reed with the tip towards the mouth and the draw reed's tip towards the rear. If so, it fascinates me how that works and would love to hear about any advantages/disadvantages over the usual mounted positions.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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MP
60 posts
Mar 11, 2010
6:10 PM
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hey bob, thanks for the tip. i normally pop the whole offending reed out and screw it back in. going to buy a nail set.
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