On one of my vids someone commented on how some of my notes were 'naked' and needed vibrato. Now, as I listen to different cuts from the masters I can hear the vibrato cutting through. The question I have is "how much" and "how often" to use vibrato?
Should one ALWAYS be using vibrato? Should one only be using vibrato on sustained notes? I guess I'm sort of asking whether my vibrato, as I develop it, should just always be there or should I be pulling it out of my bag of tricks sometimes, like I would hand effects or warbles?
---------- "Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
If you use it all the time, it might get obnoxious. Every player has his own way of making things work but if all of your notes sound the same again, just with vibrato, there isn't much gained. Variety is the key.
---------- If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
It's a bag of tricks thing for sure, but sustained notes are the best place for it. If you try to fit vibrato into everything you play, you'll end up with a raced vibrato, similar to an untrained vocal virato that resembles the bleat of a lamb. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 7:38 AM
Also, you can utilize different types of vibrato at different times for more variety. Throat vs tongue or jaw, for instance. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
My philosophy is to let it come as it wants. Too much thinking and soon you are technically proficient, but lack the key to the blues- the soul note. I guess the question is - do you want your own style or do you want to be an imitator of the greats? I mean no disrespect on the latter, it just means you will have to physically learn techniques to play certain guys stuff that may not come naturally to you. IMO the greats let their own style emerge via playing what came naturally. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
Yesterday i did a quick recording for www.bleusharp.nl.. I recorded 8 different vibratos... you can hear them on: http://www.box.net/shared/vpxe22ooll
here's a short explanation ( on the recording it is in dutch!( vibratos on a Bb harp/hole 4 draw 1. handvibrato 2. mouth/tongue vi.. 3.mouth cavity tremolo 4.mouth cavity vibrato 5. mouth/throat vibrato 6. throat vibrato 7. tongueblocked throat vibrato 8. cupped tongueblocked throat vibrato
There are many more vibratos , this is just a short overview . For more details/explanation you can contact me on: ben@harmonicainstituut.nl I also do on-line lessons through SKYPE..!
Anyway, my advice would be this: when you use vibrato, bear in mind that what you are essentially doing is imitating a singer.
Usually, for added expression, singers will use it selectively on longer notes. But, there are no hard and fast rules. Like so much in music, it comes under the umbrella of 'aural tradition'. In other words, copying, more or less, what has gone before.
Your ear and personal taste must be the final arbitors. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
Mick-I thought it was me who made that comment? Regardless, I agree with you. There is no steadfast rule;every song will have have voids to fill, and it's completely a matter of taste. Sometimes less is more, too. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
All instruments capable of producing vibrato are imitating the human voice. The expression in its use is aping a very ancient, atavistic thing. The instrument being used is entirely irrelevant. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
Not me. With respect your missing my point. The tone of the instrument is important in vibrato. Vibratos have changed over time on instruments. The Singers unlimited sing with no vibrato. I have never heard any instrumentalist in the orchestra saying they were imitating the voice. Robert Bonfiglio never said imitate this vocalist. Maybe sometime in the far past this may have had an effect on instruments but that is long gone. The string players at the best conservatory in the world The Curtis Institute of Music which is the training ground for the Philadelphia Orchestra string sound imitate other string players. The trick is to phrase with the breath. My friend Dr. Pablo Cohen head of the classical guitar department at Ithica College would always take a breath before each phrase.
I personally have never used the voice for a model. I have never taken voice lessons.
As far as being atavistic I'll leave that to a gene specialist or social Darwinist or a creationist.
I suppose that degree in music I took and the hundreds of piano lessons I had where all a waste of time.
Hell, what do I know?
One thing I do know is that the quality of debate and comment on here has made it a place I no lomger want to frequent. People who've been playing for not all that long, or have very little training, contest accepted views - accepted for centuries by the most skillful humanity has to offer - because they simply don't know any better.
I suppose it's sympomatic of the web/blogs/chatrooms, where everyone must have an opinion, but very few have the grace or humility to accept being mistaken in their views.
It's funny, you know. When I was a music undergraduate, we were constantly being drilled with the notion that our opinions had to be 'informed' opinions. To an extent - for example, when acting in a professional capacity - that is true. But, in a place like this, where everyone's views are equal, unless they're famous, that goes out the window. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another discipline where a formal training counts for so little.
As for myself, I've been paid, and paid well, to impart my knowledge. I got my training from some very well qualified people. Yet, on here, that means nothing. Many of the discussions are pointless; they are little more than ways to kill time; often, people just puffing their chests. I expect that most web forums are similar.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've received helpful, valid advice. I know I've given it many more times than that. But, hell, what do I know?
Lastly, I'll just make it clear that I'm not ducking out of here because of your comments, Diggsblues. True, I've never had a pleasant exchange with you; you always seem to have to know better, come what may. Rather, it's what I've outlined above. You are just one example of it.
I think I'll spend my time in the woodshed. I'm sure it'll be a lot more productive than battling with all the self-assured egos on here, when all I'm trying to do is pass om the training that's been passed on to me, and, with luck gain some insight that might help me.
Mick
BA (Hons) Mus Former teacher of music in school and piano teacher
Whatever that's worth. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 6:57 PM
What? Why do people always get upset so easily when people disagree. Vibrato is pretty natural for any instrument or voice. There are only a few ways to produce sound.
Whether reproducing vibrato is mimicking the human voice or mimicking something even more fundamental to how sound is made, the real point is that whatever source you draw on for inspiration, cello, voice, bell, or whatever, it really comes down to what is aesthetically pleasing to you and your audience.
"As for myself, I've been paid, and paid well, to impart my knowledge. I got my training from some very well qualified people. Yet, on here, that means nothing. Many of the discussions are pointless; they are little more than ways to kill time; often, people just puffing their chests. I expect that most web forums are similar."- HarmonicaMick
Well, yeah, that's the internet. You can choose to look at that as one of the internet's assets or it's greatest downfall. I think it's probably both and has a lot to do with what expectations you bring to the table. An important part of learning is forming ideas and figuring things out and being exposed to different viewpoints.
As far as the genre of this forum, the harmonica WAS used to mimic the voice.
As far as other instruments - violin in particular is one that is appreciated for it's voice like qualities. There are some schools that make violinists take voice lessons at the same time to expand and help understand how to play their instrument.
I think the idea of an atavistic element to music - particularly rhythm and the human voice is very relevant - particularly to the blues. (as atavism can be cultural as well - and not left to scientists) The use and understanding of ancestral African rhythms and voice intonations which were certainly no part of any formal schooling certainly make that point.
As far as Vibrato is concerned, there are plenty of examples of different vibratos. I suggest you take up the vibrato of the person you are in the woodshed with. If you are listening to Big Walter Horton, be prepared to use it everywhere. If you are listening to Howlin' Wolf, be prepared for deep and slow. All have something to teach, and I would learn them just as they used them for proper context. It is in this context that you will learn the proper place for vibrato - so get to woodshedding!
OK, wow. First, thanks for all the input. I totally understand the concept of "play it where it fits". For me, I do happen to think of "voice" when I think of the harmonica and particularly when I think of vibrato so that's a good model (for me) to follow.
Secondly, people in violent disagreement over...vibrato...? WTF, people. In the words of my favorite character on "Celebrity Rehab"..."Can't we all just get along?"
---------- "Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
vibrato with the voice and with an instrument are completely totally intertwined...and yes Im an amateur with no formal training... doesnt that just make sense regardless? ---------- Kyzer's Travels
Kingobad, vibrato is not “natural” to singing. Only in the last century it has become the norm. Before that, it was considered as an embelishment (and noted as such), or even, as far as the 16th century, as a way to express manierism. That's for western.
As for african, vibrato was not used in traditional music, and for a very good reason : vibrato is not a device you can easily use for group music. It's of course only suitable when a singer or player is soloing. Early recordings of griots (who sing solo) from West Africa show no particular use of vibrato (not to be confused with melism), and they acompany themself with instruments like kora or balafon (or harp, the one with strings, if you go a little more down south) which are not vibrato friendly. A guy like Youssou N'Dour use deep throat vibrato, but that's today.
There's no atavism in that, there's only esthetics, which change with time and places.
As far as blues is concerned, if we can trace something from Africa, apart from rhythmic patterns and harmonic progressions through four scale degrees, it may be the taste for a particular quality of “rattling” voice, which you still hear in “black voices” (be it a blues singer or a cuban sonero), and that you may hear in... harmonica (sort of). That doesn't mean that harmonica was used to imitate the voice. It just means that the early bluesmen found the harmonica relevant with their esthetics, and used it accordingly. Same could be said with guitar, washboards or whatever belongs to the blues organology.
And by the way, the reference made to singing when learning an instrument is by no way a mean to mimic the voice, it's just a mean to go beyond the technical determinism of one's instrument. It helps to improve the way one can express musical phrases, and has much to do with the narrative of music. A human being is just a person with plenty of stories in his head, and plenty of stories to tell, whatever the means. What Diggblues said on phrasing with the breath is spot on.
Changing the perspective, I guess that many of the vibratos described by Ben Bouman would be undoable by a singer (just a guess, I'm an awful singer).
For the question of "where and when to use vibrato", I'd say that, for blues, I use it everywhere. For me it's more a matter of intensity than " to use or not". With time, every blues harp player (I think) develops his own vibrato that becomes part of his sound full-time. To the point that the player has to "take out" his vibrato if he wants to play some notes without it. In other words, it's the "non-vibrato" that becomes a trick... Well, at least I feel it that way.
The human voice is a free reed instrument. One can claim that other instruments have vocal-like qualities, but in respect to how the sound is produced none come close to the harmonica.
It stands to reason that what sounds good for the human voice will sound good for harp.
SORRY FOR .........veering from the OP, but I think a STRONG vibrato really separates the good players from the really good ( to pro ) players. I tend to think no matter how musical, or how quick you pick up things, developing a strong throat vibrato is just a matter of building up the throat muscles on a daily basis over a 2-3 year period. I think Adam once said a couple of years ago, it took him a couple of years to get it, and I would agree now. When he first said that, I thought, naa...... Ill get that in a couple of days...........but I was wrong.
( I know this is OT, but for anyone looking under the Vibrato heading it could be helpful )
I too found that the things I was taught in music school are not respected outside of music school. What does that mean?
1)The music comes first. The language to describe it comes after that.
2) Music changes. Yet Schools are VERY slow to adapt because they have a stake in keeping the old ways alive.
All that aside,
Vibrato style works this way: experiment, and see what works. The power of "what works" is more powerful than 1000 years of tradition. "What works" is where those traditions come from. We are not descended from super-intelligent beings who exist no longer. We are descended from humans, who were no more or less intelligent than us. Therefore, look to tradition, but choose what you like.
As for imitation,
It's a choice. You hear what sounds cool and then go after it. What somebody else said is not all that important. Not that you shouldn't listen, but if you take everything as gospel you just end up with a book in your head.
Mick,
If you hear what kind of vibrato Diggs has learned, as an educated musician you have no choice but to respect it (even if you don't like it). He is clearly imitating a cello's vibrato, and it works rather well. The proof is in the pudding. You don't have to imitate a singer. Diggs has the theory and the proof.
Mick just to set record straight I'm not saying who's wrong or right it's just my opinion and the way I do things. If it works for you great. I'm not here to convert anybody.
Since you seem to want to put up your credentials as having a music degree don't take it for granted that others don't have degrees.
I suck as a singer so my singing melodic lines is more in my head. However, I may be a bit crazy. LOL
Some of the best musicians I know don't have degrees.
When someone tells me I don't get the point you don't give me much choice but to express my opinion.
In the end everybody makes their own choice what I think doesn't matter.
These singers use almost no vibrato. This is the last of what I'm going to comment on this topic.
Phogi has it right with "experiment and see what works". IMO Once the technique(s) is mastered, even partially, it's very hard to miss a vibrato. And by that I mean a vibrato whose wave cycle (if the term makes sense) is disconnected from the groove of what you play. You could play it differently or better, but it seems that there is a natural instinct for doing it right (or an inner rhythm ?). A good exercise is to try to deliberatly play a vibrato that doesn't fit : hard work. The next question is when to use or not to use vibrato, but that's the next chapter of the discussion, and I guess it would bring us back to pure esthetic.
I learned vibrato on the harp by just playing it for countless hours and then it moved to my singing. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
Both Mick & diggs are giving valid responses to this topic. Either way sounds like a great way to go about finding when vibrato works for you. I do hope mick reconsiders cause like he said he is one of the more helpful contributors to the forum. Too many knowledgable guys don't post anymore. Just keep in mind that different colleges can have different schools of thought & what may be best is to adapt to both given different contexts.
Now if only I get my throat vibrato workin' one day, lol!
---------- ~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
I suppose there is a problem arguing multiple tangential points on a subject entitled vibrato.
Of course vibrato is a detriment to choral singing. I never said that harmonica was mimicking vocal vibrato - just a human voice (ex: call and response).
I'm not knocking phrasing with the breath - in fact - I wholeheartedly agree. I also say it puts it squarely in the relevance of mimicking voice. It is what we understand in our most primitive nature.
Jerry Portnoy,who has one of the best vibrato's I have ever heard,states in his Blues Harmonica Masterclass that it is one of the most important techniques to learn. He says it gives inner life to the notes-a human voice so to speak. Charlie Musselwhite,Kim Wilson and Rick Estrin also have a great command over this technique as well. I think command is the proper language here-knowing when to use it,and how much. You don't need to use it on every note-like most singers,you can use it at the end of the note,before it trails off. There are fast and slow vibratos-hand and throat. Finding the proper reed tension is important,especially on bent notes. What works for one person,may not work for another. You need to find your own personal voice on the instrument.
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2010 6:04 AM
I think vibrato is very over used by some, and probably under used by me. I can do it, but I kinda like Buhdda's method of just slipping in that little tongue vibrato, or for me more naturally vibrato from my diaphragm now and then. I've also listened back to recordings and found that I do it without thinking at times so I don't know that I want to cognizantly push more of it. As far as it being some sort of measurement stick (divides the really great players) Sorry I disagree, too many great players too many great styles. ----------
The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
"As for myself, I've been paid, and paid well, to impart my knowledge. I got my training from some very well qualified people. Yet, on here, that means nothing. Many of the discussions are pointless; they are little more than ways to kill time; often, people just puffing their chests. I expect that most web forums are similar."
Mick, why not just stay and continue to puff your own chest like you did in the first sentence? I have benefited from things you've written here. Your degree matters to me. I also know a thing or two about music. I'm sure others have benefited from you too.
The nature of the internet is as you have observed. Any hobby, any forum. Stick around and keep sharing. This can be fun if you will just sit back and laugh when the time comes for it. Everybody on every forum could use one simple rule that would make the internet a better place:
"You don't absolutely have to type every thought that pops into your head."
My name is Ron Arnold and you can quote me on that.
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2010 9:30 AM
