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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
adam is obsessed
adam is obsessed
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MP
62 posts
Mar 12, 2010
12:05 PM
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well, so am i, i even have a tatoo of and MB on my shoulder. i notice he keeps taking stabs at the TB guys -and to be fair- the LP guys as well. he gives evidence and probably sits back with beer and lime doritos to watch the game. i think adams assault is basically to get people to think deeply about technique. this is a noble endevour. i also think he just loves the battles that ensue cuz they;i have to admit, are entertaining and funny.
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barbequebob
594 posts
Mar 12, 2010
12:34 PM
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Too many players are often guilty of thinking too much about the gear and not enough about the technique.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
64 posts
Mar 12, 2010
12:54 PM
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here,here.
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kudzurunner
1236 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:00 PM
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BB: Yes, but I believe it's also true that too many players worry too much about the gear AND the technique and don't worry quite as much about all the stuff that you speak so eloquently about: how to really groove with the blues. How to make a few good notes count.
I'm obsessed with getting people to focus on the music rather than being obsessed by technique and gear. Technique and gear are fun to talk about, but they're also much easier to talk about, in a sense, than the music itself. Where does the music come from? What makes THAT guy's phrasing special? Those are the questions that truly interest me.
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barbequebob
596 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:07 PM
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I totally agree with you on the groove angle because it ain't just harp players who need to be taken to school regarding the groove, and I can speak at great length on that subject and when I was learning how to play black music in general, blues included, using fewer notes was a key component in that, and how the phrasing works to do it cannot be overemphasized.
Most white musicians tend to phrase off the 1 and the 3, wheras the majority of black musicians phrase off the 2 and the 4, AKA the backbeat, which is usually where the snare drum hits, and learning to phrase off the 2 and the 4 makes you use far fewer notes to get the job done and makes the transition to learning how to play behind the beat a trillion times easier, wheras playing off the 1 and the 3 you nearly always wind up play way too many notes and often wind up playing ahead of the beat and that's a primary reason why many white musicians tend to screw up playing in black music grooves because they're playing off the 1 and the 3, and naturally, you play ahead of the beat and too many notes this way.
Even if you listen to vocalists and the way the phrase their vocals, the exact same thing applies.
If you went to any open jam, you'd have a hard time finding more than 3 or 4 jammers who have even the slightest clue about that as they generally have the usual mentality of solos first and everything else is totally dead freaking last.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2010 1:10 PM
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XHarp
280 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:16 PM
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BBQB, That is exactly the thing. Trying to hit on the 2 + 4 where the snare drum hits or better yet on the "2 and ah" beat. This ties in with my discussion about bass players.
They always try to hit with the kick drum on the 1 + 3 and I think a great bass player does that but they also should play off the rythym and groove of the 2 + 4. Like what Buddha did in his demo during that dicussion.
Timing, that's what makes it happen.
The technique is too critical to pass up. We (harp players) tend to worry about the sexy things like amps and mics and tubes and tone when it all comes from timing, basic technique and breathing.
Good topic.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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MP
65 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:22 PM
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a great example of groove is taj mahals 'good morning miss brown' with what i call the flat tire groove. it almost drags ,but bounces too, and it literally forces you to play behind the beat. no harp in it but that's not the point.
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jaymcc28
247 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:24 PM
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The groove IS key BUT can we (or how do we) really LEARN it. I can certainly 'feel' the groove when I'm listening to great players. However, my ONLY musical theory knowledge comes from reading this forum and doing Adam's lessons. So when we talk about "hitting it on the 2 and 4" or "phrasing off the 2 and 4" what are we really talking about? Do we just mean to start our phrases on the 2nd or 4th beat? So if I'm counting it out as Adam has taught in his videos my prhase might be something like "2 and a (pause) 4 a".???
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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jaymcc28
248 posts
Mar 12, 2010
1:32 PM
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@MP: OK, listening to that cut (very cool, btw, big Taj fan here!). I hear the snare hitting on the 2nd and 4th beat. So, how to I extrapolate that out to playing harp? (does that question even make sense? HELP).
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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MP
66 posts
Mar 12, 2010
2:05 PM
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28, notice how the bass drum imediately follows the snare hit. use the bass as your guide. if you think of the snare as'and' and the bass as 1234 your count would go-and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4- if these were reversed it would be oompah music or country but never mind. when you clap to a blues your clapping is on the 2 and 4. TAJ makes a point of instructing the audience on how to clap and he's funny about it too. does that make any sense?
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The Gloth
293 posts
Mar 12, 2010
6:33 PM
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It makes sense to me, I think. I'm gonna try to put that in practice and hear what happens.
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jaymcc28
249 posts
Mar 13, 2010
12:19 PM
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@MP: Thanks for that explanation. It certainly makes sense. I'll give it another listen and move from there. Good stuff.
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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phogi
336 posts
Mar 13, 2010
1:49 PM
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Question:
To 'feel' the groove is VERY ambiguous term at best. I can feel a groove any way I want. I can feel 1, 2, 3, 4, or the 'and' of each beat. I can even feel the 'e' or 'a' of each beat. Hell, I can feel 1 e 2 and 3 e 4 a If I want. I can imagine the emphasis anywhere I want (unless we start talking true polyrhythms).
BUT,
I am white. And prone to feeling things on 1 and 3. That's what sounds good to me. But when you say someone else is feeling a groove (or not), what really matters is what they do, and when they do it.
So, BBQ, to assuage my feelings of racial/rhythmic inferiority, can you spell a few things out for me?
1) To "Phrase Off" I understand...I take it you mean starting your phrases on 2 or 4. But there are other subtleties about this that I have not thought about. If you could expand, that would be a ten on the awesome scale.
2) Ending phrases - I end most things on one, trying to increase tension leading up to one, to create direction towards one. How do you feel about this?
3)Often, even if I start my phrases on 2 or 4, my tendency to drive the harmonic tension to beat 1 can shift the rhythmic focus. I've not found a satisfactory solution to this. Any tips?
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The Gloth
298 posts
Mar 13, 2010
5:44 PM
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I think your phrases have to be accentuated on 2 and 4, but not necessarily start on it. Maybe try to play a rythm on 2 and 4 and develop from it.
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HarpNinja
258 posts
Mar 13, 2010
6:55 PM
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I find it funny the reaction stirring the pot gets around here. Rather than really trying to understand a post, some of us just look at who posted it and make our mind up as to the relevance. I would imagine that since this is Adam's board and most of us found it through an interest in Adam's work, he is typically going to be seen in a positive light, and even when others disagree, they will be respectful.
There are some talented non-blues players (or little blues) players on the board here that get flammed like mad when talking about things related to good musicianship or not being a cliched blues player.
Just to be clear, I am taking a balcony view here and not hinting towards any ill treatment of my participation on this board by others.
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Mike Fugazzi
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Ev630
140 posts
Mar 13, 2010
8:22 PM
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I think that what gets people pissed is when non-blues players equate playing the blues with a lack of musicianship.
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Shredder
151 posts
Mar 13, 2010
8:49 PM
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Funny thing, I have most always started on the 2 or 4.
Never knew why, it just felt right.
Since I've been reading this fourm I have discovered a lot of the things that are being taught about playing harp were things I was already doing? Go figure I'm mostly self taught.
Mike
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HarpNinja
262 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:14 AM
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Well that is often true. The majority of harp players play blues and aren't very savvy musically. The same is true on guitar. The typical harp player, even on the board are closet and jam players who have chosen the most treaded path on the instrument. Playing nonblues almost automatically means more music sense as it involves such a different path of study and limited harp specific resources.
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Mike Fugazzi
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5F6H
12 posts
Mar 14, 2010
10:12 AM
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Harpninja,
The harp was designed to play nonblues, ergo since it's creation (years before the blues existed) you could assume the majority of music played on it has probably been nonblues. So I don't quite understand why you think that there is a lack of resources on playing nonblues?
"Music sense" is perhaps a concept that you bring with you to the table...and not particularly relevant to whether a player executes a good performance or not (assuming that everything sounds right, of course). Many musicians, blues players or not, play largely by ear...if they can carry it off without having formal/acedemic grasp of what they are doing, does it really make any difference at the end of the day? Musical genre preference & skill level are not necessarily interlinked as far as I can see (but I do accept that many folks who pick up a harp aspire to play some blues and, purely by looking at it as numbers issue, many are not very good...but then taking account of all bedroom players of all instruments, in any genre we'd find the same thing).
When considering players, whether in different genres, or within your preferred genre, it's important to try and ascertain whether they are achieving what they set out to do...rather than whether they are meeting YOUR expectation of what they should be doing. A good player is a good player, as long as they make what they do sound good.
Concept is concept, but you only hear what actually comes out...no matter how noble the concept, it's the execution that counts.
Excelling in any genre takes time, work & dedication...anyone would take offence at having that dismissed out of hand...which I think is basically EV630's point. I can respect anyone who can turn out a worthy performance...I don't really get this "us & them" mentality, irrespective of which side of the fence you sit.
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HarpNinja
263 posts
Mar 14, 2010
11:21 AM
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"The harp was designed to play nonblues, ergo since it's creation (years before the blues existed) you could assume the majority of music played on it has probably been nonblues. So I don't quite understand why you think that there is a lack of resources on playing nonblues?"
The vast majority of harp players, especially on the net, are blues players. Go to a music store, Amazon.com, etc and look at the harp learning materials. Almost all are blues and then there is some folk. Richard Hunter's book is decades old and the only formal book on harp and jazz I can think of. Jon Gindick is the only author I can think of that has intentionally released harp books on genres other than blues, but even then he markets them as being blues related.
How many formal resources can you name that aren't beginning level folk or blues? Websites? Why is it so hard to find these things? Why are so many posts on boards like this one asking questions about non-blues progressions, positions, etc. while there is almost no similar discussion around blues?
Because the money in marketing harmonica resources is overwhelmingly found in the blues. Even look at how actual harps are marketed and used!
""Music sense" is perhaps a concept that you bring with you to the table...and not particularly relevant to whether a player executes a good performance or not (assuming that everything sounds right, of course). Many musicians, blues players or not, play largely by ear...if they can carry it off without having formal/acedemic grasp of what they are doing, does it really make any difference at the end of the day?"
Like 99% of the "debates" around here, this is centered on perceived meaning of a post where a specific term was used and no uniformed agreement as to the definition was set, therefore, totally up to opinion. And no, it doesn't matter, but if they are doing that in said example, then they obviously have good music sense whether they can articulate it or not. I don't recall ever posting that someone who can't read or explain what they are doing can't be a great player, nor did I use the quoted term of music sense.
"Musical genre preference & skill level are not necessarily interlinked as far as I can see (but I do accept that many folks who pick up a harp aspire to play some blues and, purely by looking at it as numbers issue, many are not very good...but then taking account of all bedroom players of all instruments, in any genre we'd find the same thing)."
Ok, but I did specifically use guitar as an example of this as well as harp. If you are trying to counter some point I made, I don't see the point or need. I did call a spade a spade to some degree, but I can't see where I posted anything conclusively negative or anti-blues.
"When considering players, whether in different genres, or within your preferred genre, it's important to try and ascertain whether they are achieving what they set out to do...rather than whether they are meeting YOUR expectation of what they should be doing. A good player is a good player, as long as they make what they do sound good."
Agreed. I think all players need to think like that regardless of genre. But there are times and situations where that isn't what is being questioned.
"Concept is concept, but you only hear what actually comes out...no matter how noble the concept, it's the execution that counts."
Disagree. You hear what you want to hear. Most of us only know how to listen on the defense or with some preconceived notion in mind.
"Excelling in any genre takes time, work & dedication...anyone would take offence at having that dismissed out of hand...which I think is basically EV630's point. I can respect anyone who can turn out a worthy performance...I don't really get this "us & them" mentality, irrespective of which side of the fence you sit."
I don't recall anyone creating an us and them in this thread, nor do I get where someone was dismissed. But this goes back to my original post in this thread. Because others chose to infer and read into things that I didn't type, a debate has been started and people are venting on issues that are not a part of this thread discussion. It would be even worse had I been Buddha posting that, etc. Now had Adam, Jason Ricci, or someone like that would have posted, the reaction would be totally different from some on the board.
FWIW, I always make it extremely clear, even if I use a handle on a board, to share my name and multiple resources for my music. I don't try and hide anything at any time. If I want to have a discussion over an item, I share examples from my playing or provide other various resources in order to clarify points and provide specific evidence. I also take responsibility for my posts.
I stand 100% by the comment that it is a fact that most harp players play blues and aren't very music savvy. That isn't intended to be disrespectful or discredit anyone who does play blues, etc. But the fact of the matter is most harp players are middle-aged white guys who play blues and have limited knowledge of working theory even within the blues idiom. I myself, other than being white, am even an outlier in this case, but I don't take offense.
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Mike Fugazzi
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barbequebob
600 posts
Mar 14, 2010
12:56 PM
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Phogi, let me try to take your questions on and hopefully clear things up.
This is your first one:
"1) To "Phrase Off" I understand...I take it you mean starting your phrases on 2 or 4. But there are other subtleties about this that I have not thought about. If you could expand, that would be a ten on the awesome scale."
That is basically it, and this is basically, as I have also posted on the topic of white blues singers that this is the basic black music groove as this not only pertains to the solos, it ALSO pertains to the vocals as well. If you're playing off the 1 and the 3, which is what much of music generally does, even more so with rock, it's gonna clash BADLY with what's going on in a black music groove, especially if you back up a black vocalist, as they're gonna be largely singing off the 2 and th4, and what happens is that you wind up crowding AKA stepping all over his vocals and stick out like a sore thumb. White musicians are gonna do the opposite, especially in a rock band, so 1 & 3 is gonna work there.
Next question:
"2) Ending phrases - I end most things on one, trying to increase tension leading up to one, to create direction towards one. How do you feel about this?"
It sounds like you're doing typical rock, where you're pushing the groove really hard, often running way ahead of the beat. One of the things you will need to learn is to play FEWER notes and allow more space to happen, and coming from where you've been, it's gonna take a boatload of woodshedding just to get barely comfortable with it, but you should practice with a tape recorder going and almost right away, phrasing off 2 & 4 is gonna sound bluesier that 1 & 3, and also a lot less busy.
Third question:
"3)Often, even if I start my phrases on 2 or 4, my tendency to drive the harmonic tension to beat 1 can shift the rhythmic focus. I've not found a satisfactory solution to this. Any tips?"
What you're doing is basically what I've explained prevuiously is that you're doing the thing typical with a lot of white rockers, and that's pushiing the groove and in black music, including blues, you NEVER want to be doing that, just let the groove do the pushing and maybe practice with black blues singers where there is NO harp at all, and play the vocal melody instead. Black musicians have basically used their instruments more like the vocals, so start paying VERY CLOSE attention to vocalists and how and where they phrase and you will find this in common.
A thing you miay want to do is get a copy of the first two Magic Sam recordings on the Delmark label and first pay close attention to where both the vocals and the solos are being phrased and you'll notice that BOTH the vocals and solos are primarily off the 2 and the 4, and when he does go back on occasion off the 1, the impact is much more powerful, BUT he doesn't stay there permanently like a whit emusician.
Even as a non blues tune for example, Ray Charles' vocal on "America The Beautiful," which basically is a 4/4 gospel waltz (most waltzes from Europe are usually in 3/4 time), and his vocals have a bluesy/gospel feel to it because he is both singing behind the beat and off the 2 and the 4. Try playing that as well as singing that, then try fills using 1 & 3, and right away it's gonna clash.
Is this something that's gonna come easy someone who has never bothered with this or ever payed atten tio this. No, because it requires hard listening and tons of woodshedding just to get comfortable with it.
This was taught to me by a black pro in my early years and he rode me roughshod until I knew it like the back of my hand. This is all on conjuction with learning groove and too many people don't pay enough attention to this stuff.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
265 posts
Mar 14, 2010
1:10 PM
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Great info, Bob!!!!!!
I play in a band that does little trad blues. I wish we did more, but we don't. It is amazing how when jamming at home I can totally play a song one way and then live, where the band does have a rock edge and does push the beat really hard a lot of the time, my playing takes on a different feel.
Personally, I like to play when a band isn't pushing the beat. It is easier to leave space and not overplay. When the push is hard, it is difficult not to rock out!
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Mike Fugazzi
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Ev630
148 posts
Mar 14, 2010
1:57 PM
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Well that is often true. The majority of harp players play blues and aren't very savvy musically. The same is true on guitar. The typical harp player, even on the board are closet and jam players who have chosen the most treaded path on the instrument. Playing nonblues almost automatically means more music sense as it involves such a different path of study and limited harp specific resources.
And yet it often results in lesser musicality, to my ears.
The problem is one of definition. Paul Oscher probably doesn't know a tenth as much theory as some jazz or rock harp guy. But he has more musical ability than 99% of the cats out there. I know who I'd rather listen to.
To each his own. If it makes folks feel better about themselves to acquire theoretical knowledge, more power to them. But I'll keep buying blues CDs by guys who can really play.
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phogi
341 posts
Mar 14, 2010
3:01 PM
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BBQ, thanks man! My awesome scale just exploded. I'll do as you prescribed.
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HarpNinja
267 posts
Mar 14, 2010
4:56 PM
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Ev630:
"I think that what gets people pissed is when non-blues players equate playing the blues with a lack of musicianship."
"To each his own. If it makes folks feel better about themselves to acquire theoretical knowledge, more power to them. But I'll keep buying blues CDs by guys who can really play."
Maybe a bit hypocritical? Especially when no one attacked blues players to begin with? At any rate, not very open minded...
I play in a band where four of the members could take a last minute blues, rock, jazz, funk, country, or classical gig and they could read charts as well. That's a lot more music sense than I have and a lot more than probably anyone on this board. Paul Oscher, amongst others, can have a lot of musical sense within an idiom, but most, if not the overwhelming majority of harp players, don't expand that into other genres and idioms and have limited musical ability. Did I ever say blues ability anywhere???
And yet again I will state that I did not post anything judgmental about musical sense, but am pointing out facts. I never claimed a type of music was superior to another or by just playing blues one can't be a noteworthy musician. This again furthers my point as when Bob "tells it like it is" no one gets there fedora in a bunch, but then again, he is a blues cat.
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Mike Fugazzi
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Ev630
150 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:06 PM
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You're equating blues players with a lack of musicianship. Here:
Well that is often true. The majority of harp players play blues and aren't very savvy musically.
And here:
Playing nonblues almost automatically means more music sense as it involves such a different path of study and limited harp specific resources.
I think that's nonsense but you're entitled to your views. Of course, if I am misreading any of this, let me know.
cheers
EV
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2010 8:10 PM
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HarpNinja
271 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:39 PM
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Again, the majority of harp players simply aren't. Most noodle with blues music. That doesn't mean all harp players are like this. The creator of this site has a high level of music savvy and he's a blues player, but again the majority of harp players don't.
I never said the blues was easy or the wrong thing to play. I intentionally spoke in generalities as there are exceptions to that rule...but those guys are in the minority (play only blues and have great music sense). Examples would include just about any touring pro.
I am equating harp players with a lack of music savvy more so than singling out blues. It just happens most harp players jump to that genre.
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Mike Fugazzi
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Ev630
153 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:42 PM
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Okay, thanks for the clarification.
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5F6H
13 posts
Mar 15, 2010
2:47 AM
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Harpninja,
Thanks for expanding on your post, but there are a few points that I do have to raise (then I'll shut up)...
When I was starting to play there were a couple of books on blues around in the UK...many more books were available on playing general melodies, classical, nursery rhymes, printed sheet music...OK a few years later, largely thanks to guys like David Barratt a wealth of reference info on blues playing has become available...but given the fact that the diatonic as we know it has been around for 150yrs...I stand by what I said.
You said, " nor did I use the quoted term of music sense." Sorry, but you quite clearly did...right here, "Playing nonblues almost automatically means more music sense".
As to the "us & them" scenario, you clearly mentioned 2 types of player, "blues" & "nonblues".
I go by my user name purely because I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions about where I'm coming from, I will continue to do so, I have nothing to hide and do not seek to use it as a safe place to dish out flaming posts. I am glad that you have fleshed out the fuller meaning of your post and I have no beef with it, but I don't think that I was being judgemental, or jumping to conclusions, I was purely responding to what you actually wrote...
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2010 3:03 AM
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7LimitJI
6 posts
Mar 15, 2010
6:11 AM
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Playing good music has nothing to do with how much knowledge you have.
If you play by ear,and have a basic understanding of the blues progression.
You can then play along with 99% of Blues,rock,pop or country.
The majority of this music played is based around the 1,4,5 chords. Those that are not are closely related.
I have friends that are classically trained, can sight read and play almost anything you put in front of them.
What they cannot do is improvise. If its not on paper in front of them, they cannot play.
There are times I wish I had more musical knowledge, but these are generally when I'm trying to teach a new song to the guitarist. But have managed thus far by just playing it to them.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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HarpNinja
272 posts
Mar 15, 2010
6:44 AM
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I have to disagree just a tad as playing the blues scale over a lot of rock, pop, and country won't always work. The blues is based off of the minor pentatonic scale and sounds out of place when a major scale is needed.
Also, many of the harp techniques associated with blues harp don't necessarily fit a song.
When it comes to your classically trained friends, playing good music is directly associated with their knowledge.
And again music sense, savvy, whatever you want to call it isn't necessarily defined by great theorehtical or technical knowledge. It is more about playing what fits a song best. If you play things other than blues, you probably have developed a wider sense of playing a style that fits a particular song.
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Mike Fugazzi
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5F6H
14 posts
Mar 15, 2010
7:34 AM
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"If you play things other than blues, you probably have developed a wider sense of playing a style that fits a particular song." I'll agree with that (especially if we perhaps modify "song" to read "melody") & add that for many players, especially those who improvise a lot, or those who are learning to get to grips with the instrument, that learning a few standard melodies & heads can be a good discipline & help keep folks from simply falling back on familar patterns & phrasings...you'd probably be shocked at the number of road warriors that struggle to turn out "Happy Birthday" for instance! These are also things that you can develop & hone as your technique improves.
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7LimitJI
7 posts
Mar 15, 2010
8:25 AM
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"I have to disagree just a tad as playing the blues scale over a lot of rock, pop, and country won't always work. The blues is based off of the minor pentatonic scale and sounds out of place when a major scale is needed."
I've played by ear over all the genres listed using 1st,2nd or 3rd positions and found most blues stuff could be applied.
Also when I started playing harp, it was folk and pop songs I learned. From Kum Ba ya, to "The House of the Rising Sun"
I only got into blues a few years after starting.
I have also played guitar,trumpet and currently piano.
In every tuition book I've read, every tutor I've had, all have said "listen to the genre of music you like and learn from the players you like".
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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HarpNinja
273 posts
Mar 15, 2010
8:35 AM
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Sometimes, but not all the time. If you can play modally or know your major pentatnoics, you can play over a lot more. Just because a blues harp riff works that doesn't mean it is the best choice. An example I beat to death is Little Wing. Sounds like crap with blues harp. Play it with a major sounding harp and it all of a sudden works.
There is no debate here. No one was attacked or accused of anything. The more you know about music, the more music you can play whether it be technically, theorehtically, or whatever. If you, like a lot of harp players, limit yourself to one genre, you aren't going to be as good at other genres. Whether you want to be or not isn't really on topic here.
So doesn't all your music cred further show that you have a greater range of musical knowledge than a lot of harp players and people on this board?
I have never not agreed with your tuition book comment. If you do that, though, you won't be able to play the styles that you don't learn to play.
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Mike Fugazzi
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7LimitJI
8 posts
Mar 15, 2010
8:48 AM
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There's a lot more to playing blues than the blues scale.
Ionian, mixolydian,pentatonic,dorian.
All these are mixed up to make a witches brew of magical music !
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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HarpNinja
274 posts
Mar 15, 2010
9:09 AM
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But again, you are using music vocabulary that most don't. You get it. You aren't a part of the majority. Very few players, unless they are a part of all the harp ramblings now online even know what you're talking about.
I play blues and use all sorts of nonblues scales. In fact, I don't even use the blues scale found in books for harp...I use more of a Robben Ford or Allman Brothers scale amongst others.
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Mike Fugazzi
vocals/harmonica
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7LimitJI
9 posts
Mar 15, 2010
9:56 AM
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Robben Ford. Melodic minors and diminished scales.
Great, if it gives you what you are after.Knowledge is power.
On my piano I play all sorts of stuff, boogie woogie, blues, pop and a little jazz.
It's a lot easier to understand and learn music theory when the notes are laid out in front of you.
I am learning to read and understand music more because of the piano, but ultimately I'd like to be on the piano like I am on the harp.
I think a phrase and play it, or I listen to a piece of music, get the key.
Work out what position works best and go for it.
I had never heard of 12th position until I came to this site. Don't know what notes are in the scale.
I listened to Howard Levys youtube video on 12th and thought the chord progression was ace.
So went to the piano, played the bass with my left hand and played harp over it in 12th pos.
Sounded great. So, I wrote some words to it and its now a ballad.
Thats what I mean about playing by ear you don't need to know the scales to be able to play.
If you hear it in your head, you can play it.
Thats taken the best part of 20 years to get there.
Unfortunately, I can't do that on the piano,so I'm learning scales, chords and theory.
Probably 20 years ago if I had learned my scales,and theory, I would now be a better harp player.
Music theory is the fast track to learning an instrument.
But you still have to listen to and emulate the great players in whatever genre.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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Blueharper
88 posts
Mar 15, 2010
10:07 AM
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5F6H "I go by my user name purely because I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions about where I'm coming from"
Just curious,what does 5F6H represent that allows people to know where you are coming from? I am so ignorant it means nothing to me.
Now my curiousity is kickin' in.
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barbequebob
606 posts
Mar 15, 2010
10:09 AM
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If I remember correctly, that's like a Fender amp model series from the 1950's, like 5F6A is basically a real '59 Fender 4-10 Bassman.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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congaron
672 posts
Mar 15, 2010
11:37 AM
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"I have friends that are classically trained, can sight read and play almost anything you put in front of them.
What they cannot do is improvise. If its not on paper in front of them, they cannot play."
This comment strikes true with me as well. It is a battle we fight in our Church praise team almost weekly.
Much of Christian contemporary music is simply written using a handful of basic chord progressions with the rhythm foundation largely determining the nature of the song. For this reason, lead sheets are readily available for guitar players, but sheet music may or may not be. When you have a pianist who cannot improvise using a lead sheet, you have a problem. Same for any typical orchestra instrumentalist who never learned to improvise. I think this is an example of becoming a fantastic music reader..and sight reader...with minimal knowledge of theory, as it applies to improvisation. They may also have a poorly developed ear for improvising. Give these people a conductor to interpret the music and give them visual commands on how to play their part and they are wonderful instrumental musicians...virtuoso level in many cases.
I have always thought the solo artists who become great names have that something extra.... the ability to interpret the music for themselves and play it that way without relying on a conductor. They emerge as soloists because they stand out from the other fine instrumentalists in this manner.
We heard a family bluegrass band saturday night. The two daughters were the real stars of the show. Ages 14 and 12. Both were suzuki violin students from very early ages. The 14 year old was a virtuoso on violin, mandolin and guitar. The 12 year old on violin and banjo. After a few numbers a difference became clear..the 12 year old was seamless in transitioning from vocals to her instrument at the time, be it banjo or violin. The 14 year old, not so much. The band played on the strength of the 12 year-old and downplayed this weakness in the 14 year-old, but it occasionally was evident. The 12 year old popped in and out of the mic in traditional bluegrass form, sometimes singing lead, other times perfect harmony, other times playing banjo or violin. Her performance became effortless to watch and listen to, where the 14 year-old became slightly fatiguing...sort of a "when will the little one get back up there" feeling in your gut. Overall, the evening was highly entertaining, but the 12 year-old won the crowd and kept it captivated. It was as though the family was there to back her. No sheet music for any of them...obviously, but a subtle difference and some fine playing by everybody. I'm sure any violin section in any orchestra could have played the whole evening, but not the way they did it.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2010 11:40 AM
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