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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Anybody Making 7-Limit Just Intonation Harps?
Anybody Making 7-Limit Just Intonation Harps?
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wolfkristiansen
465 posts
Nov 05, 2022
11:54 PM
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I guess the title says it all. Is any current harmonica manufacturer making 7-limit just intonation harmonicas? This old man has decided he likes the sound of these harps best, after playing some of his oldest harps, and comparing them to the newer ones.
I especially like the "crack" coming from playing the 4-5 draw notes simultaneously and forcefully. Hard to describe it better than that. I'm not talking about drugs, just a sound.
Anyways, is that tuning available for purchase anywhere? If not, who can tune a Special 20 to that tuning?
I'd rather buy a harmonica with that tuning, but will go to a custom tuner if all else fails.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3087 posts
Nov 07, 2022
5:43 AM
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I thoroughly enjoy tuning harps to Just (and odd tunings).
Is the Fabulous 7 limit?
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nacoran
10412 posts
Nov 07, 2022
9:48 AM
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I'd double check before ordering, but looking at the charts it looks like maybe the Hering 1923 and the Suzuki Fabulous?
https://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/f/TuningsForDiatonicHarmonicas.pdf
Of course, Hering may have changed since they were bought out and reorganized. They do respond in a reasonable time frame if you IM them on FB.
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Nate
Facebook
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barbequebob
3686 posts
Nov 07, 2022
10:47 AM
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As far as I know, Hering still uses 7LJI. Other than buying a custom harp and making sure that you specify that you want 7LJI (because with 99% of customizers, unless you specify, if you ask for just intonation, they will automatically use 19LJI).
Other than retuning the entire harp yourself, if you buy a Seydel, their compromise tuning is essentially close to 19LJI (with the only difference is how 5 & 9 draw are tuned, and in 19LJI, those two notes are tuned 1.5 cents sharp and with Seydel 2 cents flat), you can retune those two on Seydel approximately 25 cents flatter to achieve it but to make sure you have it right, you not only have to listen to the octaves, but also how the note sounds with the other two notes in the chord and once you don't hear any beating when the chord is played SOFTLY, then you're there.
@Gnarly -- the Suzuki Fabulous comes both in equal temperament and 7LJI tuned versions.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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dougharps
2340 posts
Dec 19, 2022
10:18 AM
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After seeing this thread recently I got out my 5 Hering 1923 Vintage Harps that I bought years ago. I haven't used them much due to playing music styles that don't sound that good with the flattened notes in 7 Limit Just Intonation.
I originally purchased the 1923s in order to check out the sound of the difference tones when playing 7LJI blues through a bullet and tube amp. I became a believer that for old school blues playing the 7LJI tuning gets the sound that fits the music. The difference tones add so much to chords!
For other styles of music the 7LJI flattened notes stand out in a bad way.
Since I play a wide range of genres I find that Hohner and Suzuki compromise intonation works best for me most of the time. Equal Intonation is good for single note playing, but the chords just seem too harsh.
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Doug S.
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TetonJohn
420 posts
Dec 19, 2022
12:38 PM
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I have a couple of Seydel harps (happen to be G and LoF) that say Just Intonation on the side of the box and the comb -- I assume I ordered them that way from the manufacturer (though my memory is not real clear on that). Maybe they will still do that on request???
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Dec 19, 2022 12:43 PM
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barbequebob
3687 posts
Dec 20, 2022
8:46 AM
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@TetonJohn -- the temperament that Seydel harps use is a compromise tuning that's extremely close to 19 Limit Just Intonation and what separates 19LJI and the Seydel compromise tuning is where 5 & 9 draw are tuned. In 19LJI, those two notes are tuned 1.5 cents sharp but on the Seydel compromise tuning, those two notes are tuned 2 cents flat.
If you want them to be tuned to either 19LJI or 7LJI, you can do them yourself or order one directly from Seydel and they will do it for you at a price.
ET tuning is extremely unforgiving if you have bad playing technique, especially when playing chords and double stops on them because harmonica reeds have a huge amount of harmonic overtones, especially when it comes to the huge number of odd-numbered harmonic overtones that harmonica reeds tend to have and with JI because certain notes are flatted or sharpened, helps to balance that out some but with ET tuned harps, when you're playing chords and double stops, to cut down the harshness, you HAVE to play those harps VERY SOFTLY or all of those harsh, odd-numbered harmonic overtones is what you're going to hear constantly and that makes the chords sound horrible. With JI, be it 7LJI or 19LJI, that will make it more forgiving. If you were to tune an ET-tuned harp to 7LJI, I would strongly advise using a standard pitch of A443-A444, ESPECIALLY if you tend to be a really hard player so that you can avoid sounding as drastically out of tune as possible when playing 5 & 9 draw. The distinct advantage of using 19LJI is the difference of where 5 & 9 draw are tuned, as 7LJI has those two notes tuned anywhere from 27-32 cents flat but with 19LJI, those two are tuned 1.5 cents sharp, which makes 19LJI a more versatile option.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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dougharps
2341 posts
Dec 22, 2022
7:05 AM
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More information on the topic of diatonic harmonica intonation choices:
Pat Missin Tuning Schemes
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Doug S.
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tmf714
3237 posts
Dec 23, 2022
7:16 AM
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From Richard Sleigh:
Just Intonation
Just intonation is a way of tuning a musical instrument to create perfect harmony when you play two or more notes at the same time. You tune the notes of your harmonica to match the vibrations (or frequencies) of the overtone series of one note. They will then be in perfect harmony. The notes blend together so perfectly that a chord in just intonation sounds like one big full sound instead of separate notes that are playing at the same time. This is the sound of a good barbershop quartet. It is also the sound of the harmonicas that you hear in many classic blues recordings from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Most of these recordings were made on harmonicas that were tuned to pure just intonation.
When you tune a harmonica to just intonation you only need to focus on the notes you can play at the same time. You can’t play blow notes and draw notes at the same time on a harmonica. So you tune all of the blow notes to harmonize with one blow note, and you tune all of the draw notes to harmonize with one draw note.
On a C harmonica, the blow notes are C, E, and G. These are the notes of a C chord. You tune the E and G notes to match the overtone series of the C note. The chord will then be harmonized and sound smooth.
The same process works for the draw notes. You pick one note and harmonize the other notes to it. On the C harmonica the G chord is the main draw chord, so you harmonize all of the other draw notes by tuning them to match the overtone series of the G note.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 23, 2022 7:20 AM
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Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3097 posts
Dec 23, 2022
7:51 AM
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I believe (but have not found proof) that the Major Just tuning in iStroboSoft is 19 limit. It provides mellifluous chords and the 5 draw doesn’t stand out.
Edit: I asked Joe Spiers and HE didn’t know—says he only uses the iOS version as a backup.
When I finally find out, I will post here.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 04, 2023 6:31 AM
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