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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
current marine band experiences
current marine band experiences
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bandini
6 posts
Mar 17, 2024
9:27 AM
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Like many people who started playing in the late 80s I learned to somewhat regretfully avoid the marine band. It was always the best-sounding harp, and I knew it was what all the best players played, but the quality control was so horrendous when I started that out of the box marine bands were literally unplayable much of the time. So I eventually drifted away, starting an troubled affair with Huang (that's another story.:))
But I gotta say, the two marine bands I've recently purchased were freakin' AMAZING. Like, perfect. Totally air tight, perfectly in tune, every note bends as it should... absolute heaven.
What's particularly interesting is that the stock marine bands I currently have are vastly better than the deluxe or crossover models I've tried. The deluxe in particular was just godawful... leaky, weak, poorly assembled, cumbersome to take apart.. huge waste of money.
The Crossover played decent but I can't stand the tuning. And therein lies the prob for me with most of the Marine Band knockoffs available... this epidemic of Equal Temperament tuning, which may be great for certain types of music but yikes, for blues it just sounds terrible to me.
So after a long absence I finally return to my first love, the marine band, only to realize that she is healthier, happier and better-sounding than ever after all these years!
Anyone else detoured away from the MB only to find your way back? It's amazing how much more fun it is to play a really good-sounding harmonica. After months grappling with a variety of other brands, coming back to the MB is unbelievably cozy. I literally wake up excited to play it.:)
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SuperBee
7105 posts
Mar 17, 2024
10:12 PM
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I never really went away from them but I do hold the opinion they’re great.
I don’t get many new harps because I learned to mend them and then I learned to stop breaking them. Dennis Gruenling sent me new Marine Band in G a couple of years ago. That might be the most recent example I’ve tried. It was decent. I think it had a misaligned reed in the 1 slot, probably from the trip from California in the post. So I had to take the covers off and sort it out straight away, but after that it was fine.
The Crossover tuning is usually really sharp and especially so in the upper octave. I’ve had them here for service and some were tuned as high as 449Hz. That’s an outlier but 446 is pretty common
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barbequebob
3709 posts
Mar 19, 2024
8:25 AM
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With the MB Deluxe, sometimes all you need to do is get the correct screwdriver and very gently tighten the screws a tiny bit. The tuning used in the Crossovers is NOT truly equal temperament but a very different compromise tuning that's very close to equal temperament and you can retune them to whatever way you want. I have an entire list of various harmonica temperaments and tunings listed on this site and what you should do to see it is to look on the left hand side of this page, then place your computer cursor over where it says HARMONICAS for sale, and then a dialog box will appear that says harmonica tunings and click on it and then you go from there. With the exception of the short lived MS Blue Midnight harps, Hohner stopped using Just Intonation back in 1992 and has used compromise tunings ever since then and the one being used on the Marine Band, MB Deluxe, and the Special 20 uses a compromise tuning closer to just intonation. Now with the charts that are on there, you can attempt to tune the Crossover any way you wish.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bandini
10 posts
Mar 27, 2024
7:47 AM
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Hey, thanks for pointing me to that pdf of the tunings, Bob. Great resource!
Studying the difference in marine bands between when I started and now, it's interesting to note that (assuming I'm reading this correctly) the draw notes on the first 4 holes appear to all be flatter in the current marine band tuning then they were in the 19 limit days.
When I started playing harp again after my long absence my initial impression was that I felt like I was struggling with hearing flat notes on those 4 holes in particular.
I DON'T feel like I'm struggling with that anymore, so does that mean my embouchure "adjusted" somehow, or has my ear just gotten used to hearing it wrong?:)
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barbequebob
3714 posts
Mar 27, 2024
8:31 AM
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Some of the notes were flatter in both 7 limit and 19 limit just intonation than the compromise tunings that they presently use. Whenever you start retuning harps, never retune them to true A440 because in real playing breath, you're going to really flat against a band playing real A440 regardless of what temperament that you employ and it's for that very reason that not one single harp manufacturer ever tunes harps to true A440 and are more likely to have them tuned to A442 to as much as A446 because they know for a FACT that most people play them way too hard to begin with and by tuning them sharper, no matter how hard you play them, you will never fall below A440 at all.
Remember, when you retune harps, retune while playing them VERY SOFTLY because by doing this, it'll be more in tune no matter how hard you play them but if you do the opposite, nothing will ever come out correctly.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bandini
11 posts
Mar 27, 2024
9:09 AM
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Hmm. After doing a little experimenting with a tuner, it would appear that the standard Marine Band I just bought is tuned much closer to what that pdf shows as the current *crossover* tuning than the current *marine band* tuning... now, it wouldn't be possible that the same compromised tuning is just being used on ALL marine bands now, just to save money or something, would it?
Naw, I'm sure I'm just paranoid...:)
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SuperBee
7113 posts
Mar 27, 2024
1:45 PM
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Who knows. The reed plates are tuned by hand, by ear, by humans, under time pressure, referring to a master plate. Things can happen regardless of what the process is supposed to be.
I wouldn’t put too much stock in the references for tunings. I’ve tuned thousands of harps and it’s pretty rare to find them matching. Usually the octaves aren’t too far off, at least in the lower 2/3rds. The upper end can get pretty wild.
I’ve just tuned up a baker’s dozen old Special 20s , some of which go back about 30 years. Mostly sharp, 10-30 cents north of where I’d put them. Some harps with hardly any tuning marks on the reeds, others gouged so deeply you might wonder how they’ve survived so long. Different strokes by different folks.
As I said in an earlier post, I’ve had crossovers here with the upper octave tuned to standard 449Hz. I can’t believe that’s any kind of policy of the factory.
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bandini
12 posts
Mar 27, 2024
1:56 PM
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Interesting. The more I learn about tuning the more nebulous it becomes.:) SuperBee (or anyone else): is there an online tuner that you'd recommend or do all y'all who are tuning your harps use hardware tuners?
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SuperBee
7114 posts
Mar 27, 2024
2:45 PM
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I’ve done a lot with the iStroboSoft app on the phone. I’ve had a few years away from the bench and just coming back to it now.
Thats a pretty good app as I remember it, but I’m rusty.
Mostly I use a little Korg guitar tuner, and my ears.
Ive got an old Peterson analogue strobe tuner, and I’ve used Andrew Zajac’s strobe (it’s a while ago; I think he might have had 2 of them on the go at once). Keeping an old tuner running can be a challenge. Moving parts; bearings wear out. Electronic components can drift out of spec.
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bandini
13 posts
Mar 27, 2024
4:48 PM
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Hmm. So, after delving into all this insanity a bit, I'm finding that evidently
1) every single classic blues harmonica recording that was ever made was using 7 limit Just intonation.
2) there is not a single harmonica manufactured in 7 limit Just intonation today.
So, we've got 10,000 youtube videos of dudes from all over the world trying to sound like Little Walter, Sonny Boy, etc. but Hohner won't even make a single harp with the tuning those guys used? Nor will ANY other manufacturer?
Okay, time to get better at tuning my own stuff, clearly.
Sheesh.
Last Edited by bandini on Mar 27, 2024 4:35 PM
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Gnarly
Alternatetuning
3149 posts
Mar 27, 2024
5:16 PM
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I believe the Suzuki Fabulous is available in 7 limit.
Oh, and Joe Spiers turned me on to the iStroboSoft, it rocks!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Mar 27, 2024 5:02 PM
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bandini
14 posts
May 01, 2024
7:17 AM
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An update to this for anyone it might help: it appears that the Seydel harps can be ordered from their website in just intonation for an extra $20. I just ordered an 1847 classic in JI... excited to see how it is.
I've continued to be really impressed by the playability and consistency of the modern marine band - it *feels* exactly right to me and sounds great tonally.
However, it continues to sound "wrong" to me, tuning-wise - as do all modern harmonicas. Very interested to see if this Seydel sounds "right" to me.
Interestingly, I was just watching an interview with Charlie Musselwhite who was also noting that modern harmonicas don't sound right. He said the 1847 was the only harp that sounded the way he remembered Marine Bands sounding.
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barbequebob
3715 posts
May 01, 2024
8:48 AM
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@bandini -- The Seydel compromise tuning untouched is extremely close to 19 limit just intonation and the only difference between their compromise tuning and 19m limit just intonation is that 5 & 9 draw in 19 limit just intonation is tuned 1.5 cents sharp and with Seydel, those two notes are tuned 2 cents flat, leaving just a 3.5 cents difference between them. However, if you want to tune them to the old school classic 7 limit just intonation, 5 & 9 draw would be tuned 27-31 cents flat, and the difference between the Seydel compromise and 7LJI is 25 cents or so and these you could actually do yourself. If you check out the tuning chart that I posted, you'll clearly see that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bandini
15 posts
May 01, 2024
6:44 PM
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Hey Bob - Thanks for the info! Yeah, I do love the idea of being able to tune my own - it seems like an absolute necessity in today's landscape - but I honestly haven't had much success so far.
I'm still learning and trying but so far I wouldn't say I appear to have a knack for tuning work, let's put it that way...:)
For guys like me, it's good to know there's at least one JI option out there. Whether ANY of these companies actually use the tuning scheme they claim (or how consistently) - is of course another question.:)
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HarveyHarp
818 posts
May 02, 2024
9:30 AM
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Personally, my default tuning is MS Tuning. It is a little different than the standard MB tuning. Of course I have grown pretty hard of hearing through out the years. I use Peterson Products to tune, because they are accurate to one tenth of a cent, and I rely on it 100 percent, because of my hearing. I have only had one complaint in the almost 30 years I have been working on harps, and this guy wanted equal temperament at 440. He was a studio player, and he said that is what he uses. Once, when I used to tune at 444, I had a horn player say my harps were too sharp. Now I tune to 443. Peterson tuning app, to my understand is great, but I think it is only available for iPhones not androids.
the only time I use digital guitar tuners is when the tuning is so screwed up that my Peterson jumps around a lot, so I use the digital to get me close.
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HarveyHarp
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barbequebob
3716 posts
May 02, 2024
9:40 AM
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@harveyharp -- unfortunately, it's true that the iStrobosoft app is no longer available for Android phones but even when it was available, it wasn't even remotely close to as good as the one for the iPhone. The iStrobosoft software package available for both Mac and PC's are excellent. The iPhone app version as well as the Stroboplus HDC have one excellent feature that allows you to set up custom tuning setups, which for some harmonica tunings, can be quite handy, such as setting up a scheme for things like 19 limit just intonation or if you wanted to do just intonation for a minor key, and that would be 5 limit just intonation.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarveyHarp
819 posts
May 02, 2024
11:07 AM
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Bob, I use the original StroboplusHD, that I bought years ago when it first came out from Sweetwater. Apparantly I was the first Harmonica Tech, that bought one. I worked with Peterson and they were very helpful with instructions for making your own tunings. At the time to change keys you had to use the Trans function, which I did not like, so I made all my tunings, based on the key of the harp. It was not all that hard after the first one, which was based on key of C. I found out that there was an inconsistency in the Golden Melody Tuning. After I talked to Peterson, and they checked with Hohner, they discovered that Hohner told them that they tune to 442(I think but maybe 443 or 444). Anyway Peterson built that into that tunings, so if you set the tuner at 443, then you were actually tuning very sharp. I think chromatics might have been that way too. I think they fixed it. Then they make it where you could pick your tuning, and push the knob down, and dial in your key. Its a great tuner, and I am still using it years later, and it is still accurate.----------
HarveyHarp
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bandini
16 posts
May 02, 2024
12:45 PM
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Last Edited by bandini on May 02, 2024 11:56 PM
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barbequebob
3717 posts
May 06, 2024
8:01 AM
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@harveyharp -- There's a perfectly legitimate reason why Hohner and most every harp maker tunes their harps sharper than A440 and that's because in REAL playing breath, most players tend to play too hard right out of the gate and if you tune a harp to true A440, whenever they're playing in a band tuned that was as well, the actual playing pitch coming from the harmonica is always going to wind up being flatter than the rest of the band, and at times at as flat as A437 and by tuning harps anywhere from A442-A445, no matter how hard the harmonica gets played, it will never fall below A440 in actual playing breath.
One must also take into account that the tuning standard internationally has been A440 for maybe the last 30-40 years and many countries, especially in Europe, often had pitch standards other than A440, sometimes as high as A446 and most people are completely unaware of this fact. Back in the 1970's when I went to buy harps in brick and mortar retail stores, several music stores often had said harmonicas were tuned European, meaning they were tuned often higher and occasionally somewhat flatter than A440.
A number of chromatics have been tuned to A442-A445 as well and from a number of classical chromatic players that I know of, many symphony orchestras use a standard pitch of A442 or A443 rather than A440 to this day.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarveyHarp
820 posts
May 06, 2024
9:27 PM
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Yes, but what I was saying, is on the StroboplusHD set up for the Golden Melody, they made a mistake and if you set it for 443, it was actually 445 or 446. So I just used EQU, and set it at 443. It was just a mistake, and not a big problem. It seemed to be sharp to me, and since I had their ear, I questioned them, and they researched it and the realized they made a mistake. All of the rest of their sweeteners were correct. I just thought it was interesting.
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HarveyHarp
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bandini
17 posts
May 16, 2024
8:48 PM
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The saga continues... got my Sedel 1847 classic in just intonation today and there's no doubt at all how much I prefer that tuning scheme. For me, a harmonica tuned to any kind of compromised temperament just sounds out of tune with itself when played back to back with one in Just intonation.
The funny thing is, the seydel is really a superior harp in every way. It's massively more playable than the marine band, bends easier, is MUCH more airtight, and is waaay smoother on my lips. But I still prefer the marine band.
I kinda like the way you have to fight with the MB a little. And although I'd say most other harps on the market probably play better, I haven't found another harp with that particular crunchy squawky woody thing that MBs have always had, in all their iterations.
Last Edited by bandini on May 16, 2024 8:49 PM
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