I know it has all been said before.....but after seeing this video...I thought I would maybe pass this on to our many new players out there searching for the "Golden Tone"....Tone comes from YOU...not your equipment. You don't need a 59 Bassman Clone or a Hot Bullet Mic to sound GREAT.......the solo starts at 4:05....but listen...it's a great song.
I've been saying that damned near forever!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I've avoided this topic for years, however.... Tone is subjective. While you may be right saying you need good acoustic tone in order to have good amplified tone, not all with good acoustic tone have good amplified tone. There are many other reasons for buying equipment that "enhances" your tone. Just the other night while at a jam, I played after several other harp players, good harp players, yet I was the one who got noticed. I'm fairly confident it was my rig. The audience likes a great sounding rig. Another reason for having nice gear is it motivates you to practice. If you like the way you sound you're more likely to play more. Finally, Branch may be playing with a SS Peavey, but not without a rack of special effects. I can hear an octave and delay pedal.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 8:32 AM
You don't need a big, flat screen, colour HD TV to watch a good movie either, you will still recognise the actors & take in the dialogue on a little black & white portable TV...but, y'know, given the choice...? ;-)
Tone comes from you and your equipment (if you want to try getting on stage with 50W guitar amps, a drummer with sticks & 300W bass amp & play acoustically, without any equipment, be my guest)...good equipment transmits what you are doing & if you're doing it right, you're home & dry.
@Pluto - A "rack of special effects" equates to two pedals. A Boss OC-2 Octave pedal and a Boss DD-3 Digital Delay. That's hardly a rack of effects.
I just saw Billy play through a 59 Bassman and a Sonny Jr Avenger last week. He also played through a pair a Harp Kings that Rod Piazza was using. He also played through a vocal mic into the PA. He didn't sound a whole lot different. He knows how to manage his sound, so he sounds like himself.
The SOB's from the mid 90's were one of my favorite bands. Carl Weathersby is a wicked guitar player and an exceptional singer.
Those Peavey amps are pretty good amps. They sound good. They are almost indestructible. They are fairly inexpensive on the used market. They are pretty clean sounding, so they aren't for everyone. If you want your harmonica to sound like a harmonica, they are a pretty good choice.
Finally, some may not agree because he doesn't replicate the sound of Little Walter or Big Walter, but Billy Branch has some seriously beautiful acoustic tone. Plus, the man has some serious skill.
Paul thanks for the video. @bbqbob, Having first heard that from you two years ago, you were right then and your right now. I hope you write a book on your harp wisdom and experiences. Thanks, Mike
I am so freakin' tired of all this "TONE COMES FROM YOU" crap. We ALL KNOW THAT. But to suggest that equipment is NOT part of your tone is ... crap.
I'm NOT saying that gear will make a lousy player sound good.
But the same player will sound one way when he uses a CR bullet mic and a four-ten amp, and very different using an SM58 through a PA. You might like them BOTH because you like what he plays and how he plays it, but they will still be different.
Billy Branch is a customer of mine. He sounds good through his RE-10, his Ultimate 545 and his BlowsMeAway wood bullet. You know why? Because he plays well.
I have nothing against the statement "you have to have great acoustic tone before you expect to get great amplified tone." THAT is a true statement. AND I have nothing against the statement "you don't need a big tube amp and expensive mic to sound good" - that is true too. And just to be extra-agreeable, I'll add that WHAT you play matters a great deal, no matter what your tone, and no matter what your gear.
But you came right out and concluded "Tone comes from YOU...not your equipment." And that is FALSE. The equipment in use is ALWAYS part of your tone.
With all respect to Billy Branch I don'thear nothing special about his tone in this video, too bright and too long digital delay, octave pedal which hardly track notes and filtered by amp acoustic tone. I think he'll sound better to PA than trough his rig. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I have worked hard,modifying my amps and choosing mics to get a usable, gigging sound. Although I an happy with it, at the moment.It is a compromise due to feedback and the need to cut through the mix.
My rig is as much a part of my sound as an amp is to an electric guitar. Without it I would not be heard whilst on stage, so the amp is part of the instrument.
But, when other players use my rig,they don't sound like I do. They sound like them, playing my rig. Most times, it sounds like they are playing a different rig to mine as the sound changes so much. Due to their own tone,how hard they blow,how hard they attack notes, the decay, the shaping of bends etc,etc ,etc
Amps, amplify whats put into them. If its shit,bigger shit comes out. Whether that shit, has creamy distortion,compression,sag, whatever. Its still shit.
@gregheumann, I think everyone is pretty much on the same page here.
It could have been said differently but I understod the above posting to share the following point of view which I think is the prevailing view: acoustic tone is the starting point or building block or essence of sounding good, and amps and mics just add to or build upon that foundation. Amps and mics clearly alter or enhance good tone. Conversely, bad acoustic tone will likley lead to bad amp'd tone.
I don't think you will find too many harp players who disagree with that.
Did not mean to start world war III. I guess I should have said.. great tone STARTS with you. The OP was targeted at newer players......I'm pretty sure I said that. I surely did NOT mean to offend any mic or amp builder. Jeeesh...... ----------
I agree 100% with Greg. I know I've been playing a long time because I have used some of the "vintage" equipment that is always mentioned but when I played with them they were brand new! Tone always starts with the player and a real good player will sound "better" through just a P.A. than a lesser player with "great" equipment. But I believe the real good player will sound even better if he "customizes" his sound with the gear of his choice.
Keep recording yourself, use every opportunity, concentrate on keeping your frame as big as you can & your throat & mouth cavity as open as you can, without choking down the notes flat.
Think more, "kwa" & "ha" than "ta" (unless playing something that requires fast, punctuated notes in quick succession...even then I'd be thinking more "ka"), basically avoid things that shut your mouth down & restrict air flow. Play with different embouchures, front of the mouth, side of the mouth & how far in/out. Try different playing pressures...there's no one way to do it...some guys play soft, some blow a gale...it's what you get at the end that justifies the means, more than specifically how you get there.
Breath from the diaphragm, imagine a "column of air" sitting upon it, rising up down your wind pipe, carrying the notes.
Human ears are what everyone uses to quantify tone. You know it when you hear it, if that isn't too much of a cop out. It doesn't necessarily need to be massively deep & dark, just pretty & nice on the ear.
Billy Branch is simply a fantastic player. His "tone" is always spot on for whatever venue, event he plays at. I see him make adjustments, but his sound is great at all times.
Carl Weathersby is an outstanding talent locally in Chicago that does not get as much credit as he deserves.
Tone has so many variables, and gear DOES have alot to do with it...but so does the individual player. Last night, I played thru my rig and two other players used it with no adjustments. One, a very competent player, but stylistically different than myself. Very different tone. The other player was OK, but did not have a solid cupping technique.
The question "Is your tone something that comes from you or your equipment?" is predicated on a false distinction.
I've heard mediocre players with great equipment and they sounded mediocre through it.
I've heard great players through mediocre equipment and they sounded mediocre.
The truth is, a player should strive for great acoustic tone, a mic/amp combo that augments it and allows it to project live, and mic-cupping technique that helps create the best sound.
All three elements are important.
James Cotton's acoustic sound is fantastic. I have an album of his from the mid-1980s where his amplified sound is mediocre. He sounds mediocre. He sounds like himself, but he would have sounded a lot better through great equipment.
A warrior needs a courageous heart, great skill in hand-to-hand combat, and a sharp sword. Who will argue with that?
RJ never fails to crack me up. These videos by Bends Harmonicas are pretty darn good. I like the part where he says that he will play pretty much any harmonica out of the box.
The first minute of the video is a total falsity....I have maximum respect for this guys talents..but...
A "few' people can get really good tone without tongue blocking......CRAP! Anyone can.
To get the good deep sound you really need to concentrate on tongue blocking...more CRAP!
Perfect airflow?? Nothing could be more perfect than a straight line from the center of the hole(s) to the center of the throat.
This debate has always amazed me. I would love to get together at Hill Country with a few people that do either or both and do some good spirited comparisons.
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 9:20 AM
HarpDuane, I am with you on this. There are some techniques that can't be done without tongue blocking, like octaves... but I have never agreed that there's a significant difference in tone. what might be true is that pucker players might TEND to have thinner tone, but there's no reason the tone can't be as thick.
I knew it!!! Darn it Thomas, I knew this would kick off the whole embouchure debate again..:-)
Harpdude, RJ is great player, with a killer tone (as well as a nice guy), it's worth listening to what he says, exploring it - if it doesn't work for you, then fair enough.
I don't think that there is any one embouchure alone that guarantees great tone, not all tongue blockers sound great, not all guys that play other embouchures sound weedy (lots of guys who pucker single notes are often lumped in with the "tongue blockers" because they play octaves/chords & the odd straight note TB'd). Most players use a mix of embouchures... some 90/10, some 60/40...I say again, the vast majority of players mix it up.
But I will say this, TB'ing did help me develop my sound, once I had done that, I could go back to other techniques & apply the same lessons...I think it can give folks a leg up, I'm sure other guys find ways round it without trying it. Concentrating on making a sweet sound when you play is what's important, you'll most probably do this when you are comfortable with your technique (whatever it is).
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 9:24 AM
5F6H....RJ is a great player with a killer tone. Seems like an awesome guy. I would love to meet him sometime.
This is not about what you or I do or by what percent. Many new players start out pursing and for them to stumble upon this video and be led to thinking they have been doing it all wrong, will never have a great tone, and must switch techniques to do so...well,it just ain't right.
To me ..nothing to debate really. I'm starting to think that pursing will give a bigger fatter tone because the resonater is bigger. ..tongue is pulled down and out of the way.
I do purse single notes chords double stops and tongue block splits. I do believe you can get a slightly richer round tone by lip pursing a single note.
great tone is subjective. Junior Wells is the poster boy for this. Many say his tone is terrible and others say it is supreme. Figure out what tone makes you feel best and live it! Personally I like my tone the best because it is me. I can channel music through me effortlessly because of this. It is no interest to me to try and sound like someone else because then I will be thinking of them instead of just being in the moment. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@harpdude I may be repeating myself but the first hohner I bought,a hohner blues harp,I got the little piece of paper out that tried to teach me to tongue block-i failed @ that but tried on my own to lip purse on top of ole smoky and got it-to tongue block for me would be to start @ square 1 and there are many successful lip pursers-tom ball being an example and think sonny terry was-I hate it when tbers are condascending to us lip pursers
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 9:53 AM
@groyster...in 1967 my first harp had that same piece of paper....
I learned the TB method.....I really did not know there was any other way...we did not have forums back then. I then learned that chords sounded good too so......I really use both methods. I don't believe that either way is "the right way". I also have a "hot" bullet mic and a tube amp, but don't always use them...it depends on the music....I play in a couple of bands. One plays folk /rock kinda stuff w/ two acoustic guitars and me. I also play in a blues band...were I need a different sound. They still both require good tone.
My only reason for starting this thread was to start a productive conversation on the subject. I did not mean to infer that you don't need good equipment to enhance your playing ....after a rocky start that seems to be happening. ----------
Totally agree. However, it takes a long, long time to? develop a good tone. There's no short cuts but the advice in this video will help. Tongue blocking also helps to create a bigger sound. Lee
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 10:46 AM
I agree with everything in this video. I agree that tone is subjective. What I'm talking about is the debate on whether you can get a big, fat, round, full robust tone while lip pursing.
His exercises are great. When vamping or fox chase type playing it is very effective to go from big tone to nasally for effects.
I am probably an advanced intermediate and can't play anything like these pros, but for some reason, I have been hung up on tone since my first weeks of playing. It was the technique to get great tone that I was infatuated with.
Anyway, here is my lip purse technique for tone.
I tilt the harp up and it is deep in my mouth. The top curve just above the holes fits nicely into the corners of my mouth. Their is no kissy look to my embrochure. That shape is constricting. I open my mouth as wide as possible without pulling my lips away from the harp. I imagine my mouth is held open with a baseball and my throat with a golf ball. Tip of the tongue is pulled back and down. TEll me if there is a way to get a larger human resonator. I pull and push air form the very bottom of the bottom of my tummy.
This sounds like effort, but with practice you can do it in a very relaxed way.
I am a throat player. I do blow bends, drawbends over bends with the throat.
This guy is the master of that technique. He is pursing. He might do a split or two. It is what allows all the little nuances while playing fast. Notice on blowbends he does not squeeze down with the mouth. He stays big and does it with the throat to keep his big open fat tone.
Lots of good advice there...but be aware that Lee mixes it up, a lot of the time when he plays big, juicy bent notes they are lip pursed. He was keen to point this out to me & dispell the "TB myth" a few years ago, quoting some of his favourite players that did the same.
I don't think RJ is stating his thoughts on tone as fact-I think it's his opinion,which after talking to him at length,than hearing him play,he's got every right to state that. For Rick Estrin to comment on RJ's tone as "pretty",that's a compliment from a tone master himself. I think Billy Brach is displaying great "Chicago" tone here. He's a master of that style. Tone is subjective as far as style of playing-Phil Wiggins has the best acoustic tone I've ever heard-Howard Levy has it for the classical,jazz and world music. The instrument also has a lot to do with tone-guitar for example=I know it's BB King from the first few notes. Same with Coltrane,Miles Davis,Stevie Ray Vaughn and the list goes on. So what type of tone are you talking about? Big ,fat Chicago amplified tone? Acoustic Delta Blues or Piedmont tone? Amplified tone? Tone straight through the PA? Acoustic tone?
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 12:42 PM
@harpdude61 - Maybe when you meet RJ, you can introduce him to your multitude of non-tongue blocking friends with big, fat, round, full robust tone. Since he is gigging a lot, he probably doesn't get much of an opportunity to meet a lot of harp players.
RJ's been a friend of mine for about a decade. If you ask him for his advice, he'll tell you about his experience and how he learned. He is very open minded. He is open and accepting of other ways to play and learn.
In the video, he's telling the audience what worked for him. His experiences worked for him and others.
Joe L.....I'm sure he is busy because he is a great player..if not one of the best. I have watched several videos of him and he seems like a helluva good guy and I enjoy listening to his style of play.
I'm sorry to him and forum readers if I sounded like I was blasting him. I am guilty of letting this topic get me carried away before.
You are correct. We can only share what we have been exposed to.
I probably could have worded things much better. I just don't want players that have chose the Lip Purse method to think they cannot get a super tone.
I would love to meet R.J. I could share what knowledge I have in about 5 minutes..the rest of the day he would have the floor.
Liked Lee Sankeys tutorial, well explained, especially about using the throat and chest cavity. I remember seeing a photo of Sonny Terry playing, with his throat puffed out, looked like a bullfrog! No wonder he had such a great sound. ---------- Lucky Lester
back to the top with another .02 - I'm with Boris on BB's tone on the original video - yich. Don't know wether it's the recording, the effects he using , the amp settings the ss amp or what. There is distortion on the mid to upper range - but not 'good distrortion' - it's just scratchy tilted toward the trebble and blurs the notes.
My recent obserbations on tone have to do with differences I'm percieving in 3'd and 1st position blues vs. 2nd postition. Some of this has to do with the chord voicings in 3d, as well as the lower harps used in some keys ie. a G or A harp in key of A vs a D harp . But the 3'd positition players I'm getting a bit more into -Dennis Gruenling, & William Clarke at the moment- also just have killer tone. Hopefully some of it is rubbing off on me as I get more comfortable in those positions.
If it's to do with toung blocking that sucks - because after 40 years of lip pursing (except when chording) - my tounge feels completey retarded if I try to bend a note while blocking.
@pharpo - I wasn't offended. Its just a lot of people say what you said and so others repeat it - and then it becomes gospel, even when it is wrong. I like your words " great tone STARTS with you" much better!
@harpdude, I reckon I would be in the other camp. As pure, sweet, blistering and beautiful as straight LP can get (see JR) I can't say I've ever heard it melt butter like TB can (see BW, K. Wilson). I don't have any illusions about resolving this question here, of course, but it is fun. That said, I would certainly take you up on your Hill Country challenge. The chances of me getting there this spring are slim though. -$ and scheduling, but. I am trying.
@groyster - I am learning to do it. It is a challenge! You can - but you need to develop different muscle areas of your tongue. I think if I had tried to learn to bend in TB position when I was first learning to bend at all I wouldn't have been able to get it at all - but that would ultimately have been a shorter path. ---------- /Greg
I only know of one pro player who tongue blocks 100% of the time. Dennis Gruenling
The rest, Kim, Rick, Rod, William, etc all do both.
Lipping holes 1,2 and 3. You can hear this easily esp with Kim's playing. In Rick's dvd I can hear him lipping on the bends on holes 2 and 3
IMHO when Rick and RJ are talking about having to use TB they are referring to slapping to get the big pre single note chordal slap.
This DOES fatten your sound immensely, and is a must for Chicago and West Coast blues.
I tongue block 100% of the time apart from hole 1, which I lip.
The bends on holes 2 and 3 when TB are big and round. If you lip these bends they can be big and round too, but with the option of thinning off the sound, think Kim. You can't do this as effectively when TB
I prefer the sound I make when TB over lipping. Which is why I do it.
I think bad acoustic tone is enough objective thing because of harmonics/overtone content. Bad player have bad tone because of weak lower harmonics. Other can sounds bad because of some inconsistence. Too hard attack, too closed mouth, too much air don't allow reed to vibrate enough free for all it's lenght. Resonance is a matter of taste. Check the Buddha tight resonance in the middle of his mouth (mostly), against Jason's wide resonance in his throath (mostly) or Sonny Terry's wide front resonance (mostly). Good player can move his resonance point to amplify some harmonics and frequencies. Good player's tone is a matter of taste, you can like one more than other, while bad tone is always bad.
Amplified tone can be a matter of taste mostly. It usually can make player better or not.
BTW I record myself very often (I'm Zoom H2 happy owner), and I always like my acoustic tone, while I often (not always) fail with my amplifed tone because I hear it slightly different while play than while listening, I often tend to add too much gain and highs sometimes.
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 4:15 AM
By the way, what would be the best to do on the PA to have a good sound ? Is it pushing up the middles and down the lows and highs, or the opposite, or something else ? Of course it's subjective, but what would be the general idea ?
The Gloth it depends on your tone, taste and room. I general - add some bass and reduce highs ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
@ Gloth "By the way, what would be the best to do on the PA to have a good sound ? Is it pushing up the middles and down the lows and highs, or the opposite, or something else ? Of course it's subjective, but what would be the general idea ?" The general idea is that the PA reproduces what you do, don't assume because EQ's are set to the mid point that the sound FOH is "flat" (the kid that designed the PA didn't know what mic & speakers you would be pairing up with). EQ whilst playing into your monitor, start with the bass & come off & on the mic, dialling in until the low end (2 draw bends on a low key harp) is reinforced without being dull/woofy, then move on to the mids, treble really set for detail crispness, without getting glassy, or ice-picky - you're really looking for what you play, to come back at you, as realistically as possible.
