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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Hole 3 Bends
Hole 3 Bends
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Gary 62
46 posts
Sep 18, 2015
1:05 PM
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Hi i'm talking about sustaining the bends at the right pitch or thereabouts without them wobbling all over the place. I find that yes i can get the bends but a lot of the time when i put them in a scale or passage they can sound weak or they tend to waver instead of being steady.
Has anyone else got some tips or ideas that can help with the tricky hole 3?
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Ian
96 posts
Sep 18, 2015
2:45 PM
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This clip of Jason ricci talking about scales helped me a bit.
There's a section where he talks about sustaining the bends and drawing them out like the sound of a violin that struck a chord with me (excuse the pun).
https://youtu.be/-nVI-0iZuTY
(sorry can't embed from my phone)
Hope it helps a bit.
Last Edited by Ian on Sep 18, 2015 2:50 PM
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SuperBee
2819 posts
Sep 18, 2015
4:14 PM
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There is a bit going on with this.
Hole 3 is reputedly tricky, largely because of the wide range of the bend. At the 'floor' it's about 30-40 cents sharp of the blow note, and that's a long way up to the draw note. So part of the issue is just being able to hear the note you want and knowing whether you are on it or above it or below it. Ear training will help, you can use a reference pitch and or a tuner. Using another harmonica for the reference pitch may be helpful, especially at first.
But also, there is an aspect of control...the physical ability to move around in that space and find the pitch you want and hold it once you have it. For this, I believe it's control exercises...physical stuff. Start with the unbent note and bend it to the floor. How long can you hold a draw note? 30 seconds? Take about 5 seconds to bend that note from unbent to fully bent...watch a tuner while you do it and see where you hit the bottom. If using an A harp (I recommend you do, but a Bb, C, G would all be ok) you'll probably see the lowest you get is a fairly sharp E. Hold that bend about 5 seconds, then let it back up to the G#, again over about 5 seconds...maybe longer.
Just holding the note at the bottom of the bend is worthwhile too btw. You could do that exercise a couple times, just hold it down as long as you can...but don't play hard, just a normal volume, and try and keep the volume steady.
But back to the down and up exercise...
You probably noticed a couple places in the journey from top to bottom and back up, where the volume went really quiet, and or the pitch jumped across from one point to another. Your 1st goal is to work on those areas so that doesn't happen. So if it happens on the way up, bend down to the point just below where that jump of volume loss happens, and bend up through it...focus on what is happening there with your tongue and throat and breath and try to work through it until you can traverse that place and have it smooth..then go back to the bottom and let up again. Keep doing this for each point where there is a problem so that you can go all the way from bottom to top smoothly and at even volume.
That is the first goal.
Now you can go to the bottom and come back up, stopping at the pitches you want. Practice each of them. Hold the F#, let it rise a few cents and then bring it back to pitch. Do this with each of the pitches. Try going from f# to G. Try going straight from one pitch to the other, and back. The tuner is useful for these exercises. You can still train your ear, but this is about having physical control and developing the coordination to be able to actually do the thing and achieve the movement between pitches without that being an impediment.
Holding the pitches and not wavering was mentioned in another thread; that's also an aspect of this process.
I hope this is helpful. This exercise was given me by a very skilled pro player and it helped my playing immensely. It's not an instant fix of course, you still have to put in the work and the ear training exercises are also important, but you need to develop this underlying facility to make the other things really work. I believe it will speed up the process.
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Gary 62
47 posts
Sep 18, 2015
5:48 PM
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Thanks Ian for the video link and Superbee for the advice. Hole 3 is so difficult compared to the others. Getting those bent notes to blend in musically with a passage is really hard. I practice a C major scale (C harp i have) and everything works pretty well until i go for the A bent note in the third hole. Sometimes i get it but more often than not it sounds like a sick cat or something. Usually not bent enough in my case i think. Sometimes i overshoot it but usually it's under bent.
Now i understand what Tinus meant when he said getting the Hole 3 bends in tune and musical was harder in his opinion than overblows!!
Thanks guys.
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MindTheGap
668 posts
Sep 18, 2015
10:53 PM
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Excellent question Gary, and excellent answer from SuperBee. This is what I'm talking about - you don't get this level of fine detail in the books. Usually only from a live teacher and not everyone has access to one.
This is a favourite topic of mine. If there was one thing that I'd wish I'd known from early on, it's just how difficult the 3 draw bends are, compared to all the other bends. I think you are doing a service to other beginners to point this out. In fairness, the books do usually mention this, but IMO don't do it justice.
Of course, the harp wasn't actually designed to do any of these things, so maybe it shouldn't be a surprise that some things are easier than others.
When I learnt to bend I put in a lot of practice hitting those notes, and was particularly bothered by that 3'' bend. Ok as a passing note, but as a held tone? - hmmm. Just sounded dodgy, even held at pitch. Usual questions - was it me, was it the instrument? Long story short - that's just how it is. You say 'Sick Cat' yes indeed.
None of what I'm going to say is at odds with SuperBee's prescription, you need to do that practice to have the control over pitch and stability. But even with that in place I think there is more to say...
I started listening to recordings of top players and realised I could normally pick out their 3'' notes because a) it has 'that sound' and b) good players manage it in interesting ways. There it was, and that cheered me up. So they were adding strong vibrato, hand effects, dips etc. I found it's not often played unadorned, at least in blues, and that showed the way forward. Some people do quite wild things with it, some very controlled.
As one example, here is a fantastic lesson from Lee Sankey demonstrating a particular type of vibrato including on that note. I haven't learnt it fully yet, I can fake it currently, but it's on my list to learn properly. Just have a listen to this...
(BTW this one won't play embedded, so the link opens in YouTube)
https://youtu.be/flWkQUSeepo
Just to finish with my own experience with this vibrato, which is that I have a lot more success playing it tongue-blocked than lipped pursed. Playing LP, the end of the tongue is free to wobble about and I find that less stable than having the tongue on the harp. With the tongue on the harp I can get a more stable 'singing' type of vibrato. But that's not in any way a recommendation - I'm just reporting what I found.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 19, 2015 1:26 AM
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MindTheGap
669 posts
Sep 19, 2015
2:45 AM
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...oh and another thing. I know you've only got a C harp at the moment, but if and when you get other keys please let us know how you find those.
Myself, I find that the cat sounds quite well on a G or A harp, and progressively gets sicker as the harp key gets higher. For me, the 3 hole gets disproportionately harder to control in the higher keys. Be interesting to see what you find.
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Gary 62
48 posts
Sep 19, 2015
8:57 AM
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MindTheGap: Thanks so much for your post. Yes you brought up a very interesting point that i really hadn't even considered. The one about players usually don't play that bend unadorned. usually they'll be adding vibrato or something if it's a held note. i can't do vibrato at all so when i play it it's just there with nothing else on it so to speak. That definitely makes it sound much worse. Especially if you're trying to sustain it for a while.
I'm at a point where i want to learn vibrato but it seems really complicated! I watched a few videos and i tried to use the throat to play it but it just comes out sounding like a tremolo and not a vibrato.
I love the way Adam plays the vibrato. It sounds amazing.
I'm doing a lot of work on hole 3. Practicing going straight to the flat 3rd from another hole. Cross harp position i'm playing in constantly really so i'm leaning on that 2 draw and the flat 3rd in hole 3 a lot.
I'm gonna get another harp soon. I like the sound Adam gets with the Bb but i love the A as well so i don't know what to get. I'm playing solo harp so i suppose it doesn't really matter that much!
I'll need to do what Adam said in one of his videos about vibrato; just sustain whatever i can get for 7 beats i think it was and then exhale and keep practicing it like that.
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MindTheGap
670 posts
Sep 19, 2015
9:32 AM
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Gary62 - Genuine coincidence - just as I was reading your post I was listening to Johnny Sansone's 'Upside of Low Down' (it came on Internet radio). It's a Bb harp and in the intro he's holding a 3'' for a bar and a half. It's amped harp, without vibrato, but he swells the note and slowly bends it back up to the 3D. That sounds pretty good! If you practice SuperBee's formula then that would be available.
If you can't do the throat vibrato yet then you can use hand effects - a swell with you hands, or a tremolo with your hands?
So I'm not leading you astray - that vibrato that Lee Sankey is teaching there isn't standard throat vibrato. As he says, on a 3'', the throat vibrato turns into more of a stutter.
But yes, I particularly like that video of Adam's on vibrato. When you here the pros play, it's easy to think they could always do that, and we don't often get to hear about their learning process. I can do a bit of the throat vibrato and it's very satisfying I can tell you. Especially through a mic and amp. I started with it being basically tremolo, and then it gradually turned into vibrato. Winslow Yerxa's book describes the feeling very well IMO, including how to turn the tremolo into vibrato.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 19, 2015 9:47 AM
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Mirco
318 posts
Sep 20, 2015
9:24 AM
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A quick exercise to help you nail the whole step bend:
Three Blind Mice can be played as 3, 3", 3+.
(That is 3 draw, 3 draw whole step bend, 3 blow)
Your ear will tell you if it's right.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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ME.HarpDoc
80 posts
Jan 11, 2016
5:44 PM
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Thought this should move to a more current posting as SuperBee' s advice is so well presented
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Killa_Hertz
180 posts
Jan 11, 2016
6:38 PM
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I just tried that exercise and my volume didn't lower. Pretty much what you explained BEE is exactly what i did to learn. Once i got close and learned to hit the three areas near the bends, but they still didn't sound right, i got a tuner and sound clips of the bends. And they where the hardest thing to learn so far. i practiced night n day for a while.
And when i ever DO hold those notes i use vabrato. They re just not a notes i think sounds great held. Only the blue third would i really HOLD i think. But maybe i just haven't heard the right lick yet.
You know what i already take that back. I put the phone down and messed with the harp for a min. And it's not that bad to hold the 3''. Even without vibrato. But i still don't really like the 3'''. I think it goes well with other positions probably, but not 2nd. As far as ive heard.
I keep it Pretty real with myself. And i think my 3 draw bends are good. Not pro. There is always room for improving. But they definatly sound musical. I do believe that the 3 draw is the one you gotta get gapped right. Because if i don't set it up right i cant barely bend it for Nothin
Edit:i just came up with a new lick messing around.
2.3''.3'.4.5b.4.3' ... 2.3''.3'.4.3'.3''.2
Is not all that but it's sound pretty good. Play it like two semi fast runs holding the last note in each.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 11, 2016 6:49 PM
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Killa_Hertz
181 posts
Jan 11, 2016
6:55 PM
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I got a question. Does any body ever hit the 4 with the 3' blue thirdish bend. It's like a soft 4. Try that lick above but don't open up after the 3'. I use this alot cause i think the 4 sometimes is too ..... pure ... high ... bright .... not bluesy .... idk ... just don't sound right sometimes.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3213 posts
Jan 11, 2016
10:16 PM
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i think i often colour the 3' with the 4, not sure about the other way.
i'm glad if people found the exercise i described was helpful. i did personally find it very powerful. probably good to have some good tunes to really help you work out on it once you've taught yourself the skill set.
KHz, your comment on the 3"' prompted me to chime in.
the 3"' doesnt go so well in 2nd position because it is a flat 9th of the scale. it does work in 3rd position blues where it is a flat 5th...
in 1st it is a sharp 5, or minor 6th if you prefer, and again not so good
in 4th it is a major 7 and given that 4th is mainly useful for playing in minor, has a fairly limited application
in 5th position that note is a major 3rd, and this is where it starts to become pretty useful. if you are playing a tune outside of the 3 chord I-IV-V progression, say something like a I-VI-ii-V progression (eg don't get around much anymore), then that note can be very useful to play during the VI chord, assuming you are basing your approach on 2nd position for the I chord.
one tune i played to practice those 3 hole bends was Duke Ellington's Satin Doll, on a C harp. the melody as played by the horns can be played using the 3" as the opening note. its a challenge but will get you used to jumpin between 3' and 3"', as well as 3' and 3", and also hitting 3" straight off the bat.
another one i started doing was 'Blue Skies'. iirc this starts on 1 draw and immediately goes up a 5th to 3". you can probably work it out from there. the great part is in the bridge, or the B part...you know...
Never saw the sun shining so bright
Never saw things going so right
Noticing the days hurrying by
When you're in love, my how they fly
on the 'never saw things' part, it is 3', 3", 3'", 3"
which is just fantastic because you can just hear that is right and it works out that whole process of hitting the 3 stages cold, 3 down up 1...and the rest of the line is great too.
if you have a chromatic, try it with that, starting on 1 draw or 5 draw, then transfer it to diatonic.
well, maybe its just me that gets a buzz out of that. maybe everyone has to find their own way...
oh, it must be a good note in 12th position too...lets see...oh yeah its the minor 3rd of course...i dont do much in 12th, only Georgia on my mind, and madcat's take on Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out. not sure about Georgia but certainly the madcat number uses it a lot. he plays it on a D harp...i'd recommend learning on a D harp so you can copy what you hear but its cool to play it on a G harp because as MTG observed, it gets more difficult to play the 3 hole bends accurately within tolerance as you hit the higher harps....no point setting the bar unattainably high to start, you dont learn much that way...
regarding the tone of these notes...the stronger you get the more you can focus on making a nice timbre. i was playing a G harp at my friends place and he exclaimed 'that sounds like a freakin' trumpet!'when i was bending hole 3. I'll take sounding like a trumpet anyday. you should listen to Iceman play Summertime...there's a video...he gets a great trumpet like sound out of bending hole 3
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Killa_Hertz
189 posts
Jan 12, 2016
4:47 AM
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Sorry Bee you kinda lost me there a bit. I know what that stuff means, but it's still a lil chinese to me. But i thought it was prolly one of those notes that works better in a diff position.
I like the hook to buford chapel breakdown it really sounds like a horn line to me. Has the start on 3" i believe. And that's about the only part of the song i play. Because it's pretty tough.
Hope i didn't come off as full of myself, but i think i got them bends down pretty good, for where I'm at. I think some seasoned players find them harder because they skipped learning them. And then have to go back and do it after fudging them for so long. I could be wrong.
Ofcourse i didn't mean to imply that because i worked with a tuner that ialways play them perfectly in tune. But they sound good (to my ear anyways ). I do sometimes miss a note. And i think that the volume going down part, when you play at normal volume those bends Are quieter, but i think that's natural. I think the point was to not have stutters or quiet Spots. Either way this has made me go back and really take a hard look at my 3bends again.
Thanks
Edit: when i was talking about the blue third and the 4. I didn't mean bleed them in. I mean actually play the 4 all by itself with the bluethird bending energy. So play a blue 4. Sometimes i find the the 4 as an open note is too bright. And if you take a lil off the top it blend in better. This maybe a horrible idea idk. But it sounds right to me.
Maybe blue 4th is a bad name. More like blunted 4th.
thoughts on this?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found it."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 12, 2016 5:11 AM
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Rontana
256 posts
Jan 12, 2016
5:14 AM
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I don't know jack about musical terminology, but the tidbits I see in here about songs, and ear-learning, mirror my approach.
"Three Blind Mice," as Mirco mentioned, is excellent. I hadn't considered Superbee's "Blue Skies" in second position. It's a perfect choice, but because I love playing that song in 1st so much I've never transposed it.
Also . . . "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a good hole #3 workout (you'll find that it Adam's bending lessons).
My personal favorite . . . and I start every day with this - before coffee, before feeding the dogs, before anything - is "Summertime" in second position.
Harmonica is a marathon, not a sprint, and I adopted that song to begin the day about a year ago. I'm just now getting to the point where I feel like I sometimes get decent vibrato on the that 1-and-a-half step on the 3 draw.
I thought I was getting it about 6 months ago, and then recorded myself. That was an eye opener.
The following is a suggestion for what it's worth.
Perhaps we start a thread for folks in this forum, with members playing a song that concentrates on bending the 3-draw. We could offer critiques, suggestions, tips, etc. It's usually more valuable - in a practical sense - to hear examples than to merely discuss it (which is good too, but only part of the equation).
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 12, 2016 7:01 AM
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Killa_Hertz
190 posts
Jan 12, 2016
5:27 AM
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Yea i record myself often. That what lead me down the tone path im currently on. Maybe i just learn different than other people. When i wanna improve somethin i hit it hard until it gets better. The 3 is a pain, but if you like 3 blind mice do yourself a favor and check out chicken shack. On this site on the lessons page. Free preview before you download. Its well worth it. All the songs work a different pattern and bend (s). So put them all together. Blind mice .. chicken shack. .all of em.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Rontana
257 posts
Jan 12, 2016
7:17 AM
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KH
Like you say, everybody learns differently. I've been playing Chicken Shack for about a year as well. Oddly, that one wasn't as beneficial to me - in terms of bending the 3 - as some of the other choices. That said, I still play it pretty much daily just because its a damned fun song to play. As an added benefit, it's fantastic for working on warbles.
Everyone has different harp areas that present a greater or lesser challenge. For instance, I found warbles more frustrating than bending
But what the heck, as I've said before, my entire premise in playing harp is just to have fun. Life is all about approach, and that varies with the person (aka: whatever works).
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MindTheGap
972 posts
Jan 12, 2016
7:39 AM
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Rontana - yes that's what I found,it was all about the warble (two-hole shake) rather than the 3D bends on this one.
Myself I didn't actually manage to learn the warble at the time from the Chicken Shack lesson - at least not to my satisfaction. I had to take 'special measures' to get it right. But it's ok now. A triumph of hard work over talent, as I see it :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 12, 2016 7:40 AM
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Killa_Hertz
194 posts
Jan 12, 2016
10:06 AM
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Hah that's funny. Warbbles are tougher to master then they seem. I still have trouble with them for sure. I suppose your right. Everyone learns different. I think those 2 3 draw riffs are great for practice tho. Can't believe neither on if you felt the same. *shrug* o well.
I wish yall had told me you already had it before letting me go on and in about it. Lol.
But that lesson obviously had a great impact on me. Really started me down the path of unlocking the mystery of the 3 draw. It is a fun and addicting lil Jam tho ain't it.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 12, 2016 10:09 AM
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MindTheGap
974 posts
Jan 12, 2016
10:43 AM
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kHz - well, you were so positive about it that it didn't seem right to stop your flow! :) Again, I'm thinking of our wider audience here - they'll benefit from hearing your recommendations and enthusiasm. It is a great bit of music I agree.
In that vein, I expect you will have seen Jason Ricci's lesson(s) on the 3 draw, with a complete 12 bar sequence just using the 3D bends (and a bit of 2D as I remember)? That's a groove you can play all day long and a great bluesy workout for those bends. Cooler IMHO than three blind mice :) (although I agree that is really a better workout for 3'').
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 12, 2016 10:44 AM
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johan d
61 posts
Jun 15, 2017
4:46 AM
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Superbee, this is really great tip/excercise, thx:
***********
But also, there is an aspect of control...the physical ability to move around in that space and find the pitch you want and hold it once you have it. For this, I believe it's control exercises...physical stuff. Start with the unbent note and bend it to the floor. How long can you hold a draw note? 30 seconds? Take about 5 seconds to bend that note from unbent to fully bent...watch a tuner while you do it and see where you hit the bottom. If using an A harp (I recommend you do, but a Bb, C, G would all be ok) you'll probably see the lowest you get is a fairly sharp E. Hold that bend about 5 seconds, then let it back up to the G#, again over about 5 seconds...maybe longer.
Just holding the note at the bottom of the bend is worthwhile too btw. You could do that exercise a couple times, just hold it down as long as you can...but don't play hard, just a normal volume, and try and keep the volume steady.
But back to the down and up exercise...
You probably noticed a couple places in the journey from top to bottom and back up, where the volume went really quiet, and or the pitch jumped across from one point to another. Your 1st goal is to work on those areas so that doesn't happen. So if it happens on the way up, bend down to the point just below where that jump of volume loss happens, and bend up through it...focus on what is happening there with your tongue and throat and breath and try to work through it until you can traverse that place and have it smooth..then go back to the bottom and let up again. Keep doing this for each point where there is a problem so that you can go all the way from bottom to top smoothly and at even volume.
That is the first goal.
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 15, 2017 4:46 AM
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SuperBee
4739 posts
Jun 15, 2017
7:30 AM
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Cool Johan. Mr Jimi Lee gave me that exercise, also I noticed recently Dennis gruenling teaching something very similar.
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Sundancer
119 posts
Jun 15, 2017
12:24 PM
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Here's a challenging bending exercise I've been working on:
-2' -3
-2' -3'
-2' -3"
-2' -3"'
-2' -3"
-2' -3'
-2' -3
Have a go at it. I'm ok going down, but going back up - especially to the -3" is quite challenging for me. I'm going slow and will have it before too long.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Jun 16, 2017 12:44 PM
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johan d
62 posts
Jun 15, 2017
11:19 PM
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So far bending the 4 hole goes perfect the way Superbee described. From normal draw the fully bent, in a smooth way.
2 draw is still OK, but it is a little bit harder than the 4. Sometime I get the impression that a little harder suck or more muscle strength is needed to get it smooth and at the same volume. Maybe it will straighten in time?
With 3, still needs lots of practicing. I get a silence on the 1/2 step bend. It gets to normal volume again at full step and 1 1/2 step bend. Here I get the impression that I need to stiffen my cheek and tongue muscles more. Also narrowing the gap even closer than with 1 and 1 1/2 bend on the 3 draw, I sometime pass the whole range on the same volume. Does it all has to come from tongue movement, or are the cheeks also involved? It seems that passing the 1/2 step bent, I need more the tip of my tongue than with all other bends i have tried.
Last Edited by johan d on Jun 15, 2017 11:19 PM
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johan d
73 posts
Aug 24, 2017
8:03 AM
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If I bend on hole 3 I experience the following and would like to ask if this is also the case with other players:
For a blue note it is OK I think, When I try a flat 3rd, I just do the same with my tongue, just a little further.
When bending further to a whole step bend M2 I have to reposition my tongue. So no fluency between b3 and M2. When going further to b2, it is OK to keep my tongue position, just doing it a little bit further.
Anyone else has the same?
Last Edited by johan d on Aug 24, 2017 8:03 AM
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johan d
75 posts
Aug 30, 2017
4:08 AM
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And all of a sudden there was that clear M2 note from a 3 hole, whole step bend, without any effort! Yes!!!
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