Gary 62
72 posts
Oct 11, 2015
5:25 PM
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I notice i have trouble with these now and again. I don't know if i blow too hard or it's wrong embouchure but sometimes i blow the note and a weird oscillation kicks in like a different note. It actually go's to a different note and it's not the typical bent note you get in those holes.
Other times i play it and it's fine. definitely my technique but weird how it happens sometimes and other times it's fine and i don't feel i've changed technique at all.
I like to play hard because the harp is not really that loud, compared to electric guitar which i play as well.
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MindTheGap
699 posts
Oct 12, 2015
12:48 AM
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Are you familiar with 'reed squeal'? It might be that.
One of the things I'd like from this part of the forum is that people can post bits of playing without it having to be something they think is awesome. So, I'd encourage you to post a sound clip of this horrible noise and you can be part of the new revolution :)
You'll know already that the high holes need a very different 'breath' to the low ones. Surprising I remember to a beginner, where you'd be forgiven for thinking that a simple instrument like a harmonica you'd just blow and draw and it'd play itself.
The advice I found most useful when starting was to use 'warm breath' - basically that did the trick.
I think those high notes really carry compared to the low ones, so you shouldn't need too much volume to get your sound out.
If it is 'reed squeal' and you think it's the harp and not you, then some people put a drop of nail varnish (or other things) right on the base of the reed and that dampens it. This is described plenty of times in the main forum. If you're going to try it, have a look at the pics first as to where to apply it. Otherwise it's out with the smelly nail varnish remover and we are back into Kaboom-ville :)
Personally, I found reed squeal was something that went away with practice although I did try the nail varnish in the early days and that works too. I play Lee Oskars and these are more prone to it, but technique fixes it without the varnish.
But then, it might be something else, we'll only know if you post a clip!!!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 12, 2015 12:53 AM
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Gary 62
73 posts
Oct 12, 2015
7:55 AM
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Thanks MTG it's definitely not reed squeal it's more like when you go for an overblow and you know how the reed just chokes off and doesn't sound. It's more like my embouchure is slightly off and if i just breathe in the wrong way or too hard it's enough to choke the blow reed down and mute it. Other times it makes a sound like a different note but not a reed squealing noise.
Hole 7 i notice is really loud. When i blow that it can really take your ears out!
I'll have to look into recording it and posting it up.
I may blow too hard sometimes. I think that's just 'cos i want it to be loud and aggressive blues harp most of the time and i'm so used to the volume of loud electric guitars that the harp seems quite a low volume instrument.
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MindTheGap
700 posts
Oct 12, 2015
9:00 AM
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Ok, is it like this...
While I was experimenting with overbends once I found this odd noise - it's the 9-blow on an A harp, first with a standard blow bend then again where it pops into some kind of half-way-house pitch. No idea what this is, and it's not any use.
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Gary 62
74 posts
Oct 12, 2015
11:17 AM
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MTG: That's it at 5 secs! That kind of hiccup as if it kind of kicks into another note. A weird kind of warble.
I think with me it's just consistently getting the right embouchure for the high holes (7 to 10) as these are the only one's it happens on.
Just waiting for my new SP20 'A' harp to arrive!!! Should be here any day now. Can't wait!
Had to go for the SP again as it's so easy to maintain and clean. I wanted the MB but just couldn't face the idea if a hassle taking it apart for regular cleaning. I thought to myself: "No, i couldn't take that headache!"
Playing along solo harp style a 'C' is too high pitched i think. You need that bottom end chunk to drive it along IMO.
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SuperBee
2868 posts
Oct 12, 2015
5:43 PM
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If it's the same problem I had, and it sounds like it may be..I think it's a combination of too hard and too tense. I would find that everything was fine until I'd try to bend the 10 say, and subsequently I couldn't get decent sound from 7.8.9.10
I didn't get too much into analysis of it, but it seemed I definitely was making too much of the wrong kind of effort and seemed to lock in an embouchure which simply didn't work. For me the cure was just to play tunes on the top end until I began to relax. I'm very comfortable with blow bends 8 and 9 these days and I think I've recently noticed the 10 is more reliable. I stopped trying to tongue block the 10 bend on harps above Bb and I think it was a good move. It's no drama moving to pucker for the 10 and I'm far more relaxed about it.
Those high reeds can be quite finicky I think, it's better to start quietly and get the feel for them.
Anyway, I recommend tunes. Turkey in the straw, pack up your troubles etc.
Things that allow you to play freely and use glisses and chords. Transfer bass lines to the top, just play so you get really comfortable and I think the issues will sort themselves out. Just don't force it. Force is almost always wrong. Maybe it is always wrong. It seems to lead you this way...doesn't seem loud enough so try harder...but usually you just need to relax.
That's easier said than done with the bends of course...but id say deal with that progressively and just get to work on the 8 and find a good song that uses it a lot. For me it was bright lights big city, but the melody for cocaine habit will give it a workout too. Jimmy reed would use the 8 and 9 blow bend to sub for the draw. It's sharp but it works...and the thing is that if you work with it thinking like that you get around to developing a lot of control and those reeds become a real joy to play. Boogie on reggae woman is a lot of fun to work with..stevie wonder plays all the chambers above 7 as blow only...Ab harp...you'll find some advice uses the draw notes, but SW was doing that Jimmy Reed thing. I believe this practice will sharpen your ear and develop control and make the high end terrifically good fun.
But mainly, relax
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Gary 62
75 posts
Oct 12, 2015
6:30 PM
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SuperBee: Thanks for the advice, it's great. Yes i think i do tense up and try too hard and then you blow harder and it's a spiral downwards when you do that. When i try to consciously relax it seems to go a lot better.
Trouble is when you're first learning you tend to think: "Got to learn this and get it right, gotta speed this up and get it better!" It's always like that and that's the root of the trying too hard i suppose.
The high reeds are way harder in my opinion to play well. The lower reeds seem much easier somehow. I suppose it's because the high reeds are a lot shorter and tighter?
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MindTheGap
701 posts
Oct 13, 2015
12:52 AM
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Ah good. I've never heard anyone discuss it before. I have to adopt a particular, odd, mouth shape to get it, so I don't get it by accident. And it 'pops' like an overblow. It's definitely you, and not the instrument then, on this occasion.
I teacher I went to see told me that some of his students found low bends easier, some found high bends easier so it's a personal thing it seems. But from what I've read, the consensus is that the 10 blow bends are actually difficult. Especially getting both steps. And can depend more on the harp. I find no probs with 8 and 9 blow bends on all mine, but the ease of the 10 does vary quite a lot.
There's a good video somewhere by Winslow about this. I think it's useful to know how difficult other people find stuff.
I second that use of 8 and 9 blow bends to substitute for draw notes. I listened to a lot of Charlie Musselwhite in working out how to play the top end 2nd position, and he uses that all over the place. It's all the wrong pitches, but your ear says its good!
Makes a mockery of 'fine tuning' the reeds eh? :) Same for using the 5' to substitute for 5B.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 13, 2015 12:57 AM
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Gary 62
76 posts
Oct 13, 2015
8:51 AM
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Great stuff MTG and SuperBee. I love this new part of the forum for all the advice that people are sharing about the foundations of playing the instrument.
I got my new 'A' harp today. God it feels really different! Bending feels harder though i don't know if that's my imagination or not! I took it apart and did some basic gapping as the reeds were gapped so wide it was incredible. Why do they do that from the factory? No one wants to play reeds gapped that wide do they?
Anyway i need to do some more work on it to get it playing the way i like and i'll do that slowly. But definitely no embossing! I've learnt my lesson there, for the moment anyway!
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MindTheGap
702 posts
Oct 13, 2015
10:08 AM
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Excellent. Now you know what we were on about! Like a different instrument!
Next you'll need an F-harp (the high one) and you'll feel the difference there too.
As for the gapping, well, I agree with you but there's buckets of discussion about gapping on the main forum. Whether they've changed it, whether they are too big etc. Some of the talk was about factory-gaps that were wide to accommodate beginners playing very hard. Those beginners eh? What are they like?
I've not bought a SP20 for a while, but I had to narrow the gaps too.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 13, 2015 10:10 AM
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Gary 62
77 posts
Oct 13, 2015
1:28 PM
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MTG: Yes like a different instrument is true. I also notice when taking it apart that the reeds, particularly noticeable on the longer reeds, have an arc on them that i don't really care for. i'm sure i read on Tinus's site that it's better having the reed almost straight. These are not straight.
I can't be bothered doing anything else to it than the basic gapping i've just done this afternoon. So at the moment i just want to play it. I'll adjust it more later.
I don't know how anyone could play a harp straight out the box, the way they set them up. Too much breath force is needed to get the reeds working. I like even a light breath to start them going!
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SuperBee
2871 posts
Oct 13, 2015
2:44 PM
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Unfortunately there has been quite a bit of nonsense spouted re the Special 20, especially about suspected changes associated with rebadging it as 'progressive' rather than 'marine band'.
The gaps are the only issue.
Back in April, Steve Baker posted about this on Harp-L.
I'll take his word for it over most others, especially where others don't present any information apart from emotional lyricism or blunt assertion that they're different and no good.
Steve said (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that, in response to feedback from customers, hohner had changed the default setting for gaps. 'Reed offsets' I think is the hohner (et al) jargon for gaps. Apparently when a customer gets a harp which chokes when they blow, they complain that it doesn't work, it's broken.
Anyway I guess we'll never know the true story behind who took this ill-advised decision but I'd venture a guess it wasn't someone who plays much blues on a hohner harp.
Steve said they had since realised the change was too great and had moderated the settings, but that obviously there were badly adjusted harps in the supply chain and this would take a while to filter through.
I think it's more likely to have 'filtered through' already at high volume retailers. At my local music stores in Hobart Tasmania, you can imagine, they probably don't sell all that many harps. A few weeks ago I purchased 2 sp20s, just so I could get a grip on the situation. I saw they had a lot of the older sp20s in both stores I went into. The new ones have white labels for key identification. The older ones were yellow. I chose a Db because I have never owned one and a Bb because I needed something to compare.
Both were too widely gapped for my playing. Maybe I'll reduce the gaps by half, as a starting point.
Aside, there are 2 types of 'new' sp20; some like mine have original sp20 reed plates which only have mounting holes for sp20 covers, and use 2mm screws. Using up the old stock of reed plates, the only difference from the old sp20 is the etching on the cover plate.
The newer and ongoing version has reed plates which are drilled to accept Rocket covers (and crossover covers too I think) and use 1.6mm screws as per the crossover, deluxe, and rocket.
When you buy one though, you can't tell which you're getting until you take it apart.
Anyway, still plenty of wide gapped new special 20s in my local stores and I suspect many other places.
I checked out mine against an old sp20, a marine band I'd set up, and a Joe Spiers stage 2 marine band.
It was the hardest to play, as in taking the most air and difficult to get any sound that wasn't loud. I thought I'd make a video to demonstrate what is going on and how to adjust it, but then realised I needed better camera facilities and on top of the cost it would consume a lot of time to make a worthwhile video of the type I had in mind so I haven't pursued it. I haven't adjusted the harps either, but:
In preparation for my blockbuster epic, I paid a lot of attention to the 4 Bb harps. While I found the new Sp20 needed a lot of air and was hard to play any way other than 'loud', it actually was better in some ways than the older sp20. So I inspected the reed shape/action and found the older sp20 had many reeds which tipped into the slots nose first. The new one had much better action and I expect that all it will require is a quick gap job. The Db appears similar. Really, in this regard they are among the best hohners I've seen.
Regarding curved reeds, it's not really the issue per Se. What is wanted is for the reed to close the slot all at once, and that may sometimes require the reed to have a curve as they vary in flexibility along the length. The root is generally stiffer than the middle, some of the long reeds are thicker at the free end so that doesn't really bend at all. Some of the short reeds are really only flexible in the last few mm...it's the action that matters...largely. There is also the matter of the so-called 'zero point' which refers to how high the fixed end of the reed is set. The action of the rest of the reed is somewhat relative to the root..,but that's a different discussion.
I confess that when it comes to 8,9,10 reeds, I find it a lot easier to mess them up than make them play well, but the better I learn to play them, the better equipped I become to work on them.
Oh, I watched the Winslow Yerxa video on blow bending, and in the process of searching found some things he'd written on the topic.
He describes just the issue I'd had with the 10 in one place, where the correspondent found he was holding his bending embouchure and applying it to the draw note, which consequently didn't sound and led him down the counterproductive path of drawing harder and locking in the Frozen embouchure.
Winslow likened the blow bends as trying to insert a letter in a letterbox slot from a moving vehicle. His advice was to approach it slowly until you get the hang of it. His other analogy was about frets on a guitar neck, how they are smaller the higher you go, this indicating how the 'sweet spot' is smaller, harder to find as you go to higher notes..so again, approach it slowly
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MindTheGap
703 posts
Oct 14, 2015
1:07 AM
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Thanks for the info, I had read so many conflicting things.
I've wondered before about how hard other people play, and if these gaps are indicative of what Hohner thought was right for what you mentioned (i.e. stopping customers complaining) then the answer must be very hard indeed. As I said, I've not got any newer ones, but just thinking of my pre-progressive ones.
Re the 'reed action', going the slot, I've always wondered about this, but I'll ask in another thread.
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Gary 62
78 posts
Oct 14, 2015
2:01 PM
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The high end of the harp is much harder to blow and draw the notes cleanly every time. When you blow or draw them and you're just a bit off they choke out. I've been working on the reeds to try to eliminate that but i think it's more embouchure than even reed arc!
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MindTheGap
708 posts
Oct 15, 2015
12:43 AM
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I think you are right about that. But after a bit I'm sure you'll find it becomes second nature. You should find your A harp more forgiving around that too.
I've put in special effort on the top end, but for harp keys C and above I find it a bit to shrill for my taste. Good for the cats and bats.
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Gary 62
79 posts
Oct 15, 2015
8:22 AM
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MTG: Yeah i watched a video of Jerry Portnoy saying when he played with Muddy Waters. Muddy would say "Get on the big end!" That meant the low end of the harp was where it's at for most blues i think.
Anyway i agree and spend most time there. However when you start experimenting with the high end it becomes kind of addicting and has it's own good qualities.
Today i've started trying to work on the blow bends in #10. I'm starting to get them better. Nothing brilliant but better.
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Gary 62
80 posts
Oct 16, 2015
9:08 AM
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I notice when practicing #10 blow bends for a while that when i do the #10 draw it's choked off and doesn't sound. Then after drawing for a while the sound comes back. I spoke with Tinus before about the same thing on #1 when practicing it all the time the blow reed wouldn't sound the regular note. Tinus said condensation causes it to stick with blowing in the same hole all the time whole practicing.
Do you think it's the same issue with condensation causing the #10 draw reed to stick while practicing the #10 bends all the time?
Another thing i noticed with the new 'A' harp; the #10 bends are easier than on the 'C' harp. I don't know why that is.
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SuperBee
2880 posts
Oct 17, 2015
12:03 AM
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Maybe. But also check out this;
(This is from Winslow Yerxa on bluesharmonica.com)
Some possibilities
Before trying to gap those finicky, tiny Hole 10 reeds, first try some technique-based investigations. I suspect that you may be bending the draw note - which doesn't want to bend. When I say bending, what I really mean is that you're tuning your mouth to a note that's lower than the Draw 10 note, which can't really respond and comply, so it squeals instead.
Try these moves. When you do them, aim for the open yawning-throat. Listen to the sound of your inhaled breath without the harp. Hear anything? Try to make your breathing gentle and silent with your tongue relaxed and your throat wide open.
Try playing a chord of 8, 9, and 10 draw. Do all the notes sound readily? If they do, then monitor what your tongue and throat are doing when you play Draw 10.
Also try approaching Draw 10 from the neighboring draw notes by playing Draw 8, then 9, then 10, on a single, gentle breath.
if that's succesful, next try going from Draw 10 to Blow 10 and back again.
Finally, try going from Blow 10 to bent Blow 10 to Draw 10. If the preceding moves work and this one stalls, pay attention to releasing the bend and going back to relaxed tongue and throat coming off the blow bend and going into Draw 10.
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SuperBee
2881 posts
Oct 17, 2015
12:08 AM
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The reason they're easier is that the sweet spot is s little larger. It is like the guitar fret example.. The higher you go the smaller the space between frets...that's indicative of what is happening with the harp as you go up in pitch too. There is less margin for error. The good news is that you don't have to think about too much...just take it easy and play and you will learn..your brain will gradually change itself to account for the information it gathers while you play.
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Gary 62
82 posts
Oct 17, 2015
8:55 AM
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SuperBee: Thanks a lot for the advice i'll be using it all as i continue practicing. Yes it makes sense the guitar fret idea. There seems to be less space and tiny adjustments of embouchure make big differences. Whereas you do that same thing on the low reeds and little would be different or change that much.
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