Can anyone tell me what this is all about? I know cross harp position because that's what i play all the time mostly. But i was watching one of Jason Ricci's tuition videos and he talks about 1st 2nd and 3rd position. I thought first position was just starting on #1 blow but maybe not! I looked it up on Google and got a site where they explained it as just like the steps of the major scale so 2nd position is the dorian mode and so on.
Positions for harmonica are based on circle of 5ths. First is the 1st note on the harmonica. Everything else is relative to this. So, C harmonica, 1st pos is key of C. 2nd pos is a 5th above C, so that's G. When you play cross harp, that's 2nd position and you are playing your C harmonica in key of G. The Major scale in G has only 1 note different to key of C, which is an F# instead of F. Your C harmonica has no F#, so when you play in G...if you play 5 draw (2 draw whole-step bend), that's an F, or the flat 7th of the G scale...more bluesy-sounding, less major. If you go up a fifth from G (G, A, B, C, D) you have D which is 3rd position. The D major scale has 2 notes different from C major. F# and C#. If you play your C harp in D, you get the flat 7th (C) and the flat (aka minor) 3rd of the D scale. This is why 3rd position is often used for minor-tunes, as you can play from 4 draw to 8 draw and get a minor sounding scale without bends. It goes on...if you go a fifth up from D (D E F# G A) you land on A. If you play your C harp in A, using 3 draw whole-step bend, or 6 draw as the starting note, you are in 4th position. The A major scale has 3 notes different to C major. C major = CDEFGABC. A major = A B C# D E F# G# A. So when you play a scale based on A on your C harp, you get the 3rd, 6th and 7th notes a semitone flat. This is a natural minor scale in key of A, and a very useful position. It's good if you can play the 3 hole bend accurately though, as it is the tonic of the scale, and root note for the A chord, so you need it to sound true...it will really stand out if it's not on pitch. Using same principle, 5th position starts on 2 blow/5 blow. This is also very useful for minor tunes. However, this will usually sound bad if you play 5 draw/9draw/2 draw whole step bend as its a flat 9th (could say flat 2nd, same thing, just usually referred to as the 9th) and doesn't feature very commonly...if you were playing to a chord with a flat 9th though, could sound great...but usually not. 6 and 7 Position have their uses but not so common as the first 5 because too many sharps and flats..8th 9th and 10 are quite rare as too difficult to get notes and things just lay out weird... 11th and 12th are quite common though.
SuperBee: Thanks, that's a great post and it clears a lot of stuff up for me. I've been hearing about position playing with different scales a lot, but couldn't understand what it meant. I could only understand cross harp position!
I want to mention a different aspect that builds off what SuperBee has written. What he's laid out above is the bedrock and the way harp players discuss and understand positions, i.e. based around the circle of fifths. For other instruments (and genres) people might talk about 'modes' too.
The reason I'm posting this is that it's one of the things that, as a beginner, I wished I'd known from the outset, and it took a while to tune into it.
Once you've got your scales in the different positions, like SuperBee has explained, the peculiarity of the harp is how the notes lay out against the holes and draw/blow pattern on the instrument. Where the bends, chords, double-stops lie.
There are various reasons why 2nd position, Crossharp, is so popular for blues. You'll probably know that one of them is that the 'blue notes' lay out, in the lower register at least, with holes that you can bend. But there are others too, like as SuperBee says, you get a flat 7th for free in the 5D and also the 2'' if you can bend it. But there are lots more: like chords you can make with two convenient adjacent holes like 3&4, or splits like 2/5, shakes between two adjacent holes. None of that was designed, it's all a happy accident.
The other positions have their special features like that too. Yes, 3rd position gives you a minor scale for free, but also other riches like specific chords and bends on notes - and like 2nd position you get different things in different places over the instrument. 1st position gives you lots of nice bends in the top register, less so at the bottom.
I've found that the books describe the principles pretty well, but even armed with the theory I found the real way in was to listen to how people use it in reality.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 25, 2015 1:44 AM
MTG: That was great. A cool post and the video is awesome too. These are the things that are fantastic about the beginners section. A lot of places these foundation things just don't get talked about enough. As a result people end up confused about stuff that often doesn't get cleared up much further down the road in terms of playing years.
It's a real good thing Adam did opening this part of the forum as a way to help educate us beginners.
I know since i started all the talk of folks in videos regarding position playing made no sense to me. A lot of videos just assume you know all that. But position playing actually seems quite complicated to a relative newcomer.
Honestly, imo, apart from 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions, every n+1 position is just a weak attempt from harp player to apropriate basic music theory about tonality in a sort of mumbo jumbo that is just gibberish.
1rst position is not just playing in C, so is cross harp for G and 3rd for D on a C harp. However, the more you move up the circle of fifth, the closer you get to commonly understood by anyone music theory.
Also, only playing in C,G and D is not playing in 1rst, 2nd and 3rd positions so well... By thinking position playing, you miss a a few things about those 3 keys.
And when it comes to heavy modulation, position playing just fall short and you are not going to think in term of 6th, 8th, 12th or so on position but directly in term of tonality, key center and modes. It really looks like an unecessary step and a very restrictive way of visualising the instrument to think "position" if you are not going for a heavy straigh, cross or double cross harp sound.
And honestly, except from another harp player, you are just not gonna make sence to anyone. When you play with people, you usualy are the only harp player too.
Learning position playing is essential at first but start being a weak subpar music theory substitute real fast when entering territory that weren't explored by historic player (ie, when you throw in overblow and start playing the harp like any other chromatic instrument)
Hi Kaining - thanks for your post. It's interesting to hear alternative opinions on this. On the other hand, in the beginners' forum we are trying to share the basics of what we have found useful while learning.
'Positions' are a common language among harp players, and I believe it's helpful to tune into that language. Maybe as a player gets more expert they can move beyond that concept.
Other instruments have a mapping between theory and practicality too e.g. the CAGED system on the guitar, or left-hand positions on the violin (where 'position' means something quite different to the harp). They may be some kind of simplified shorthand and hide all kinds of musical subtleties, but they are also a common language and commonly used while learning.
BTW I've read your posts on the main forum - I didn't get the impression you class yourself as a beginner?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 28, 2015 12:59 AM
I am an odd case. I know how to ob well enough to do some triple/quadruple ob and actually start working on a scale on any key without too much trouble but i actually don't know how to play in any key, nor over any chord progression and my memory is so bad that i have already forgoten every tuned i learned (and since i never put the work i should on how to imrovise over this or that for all those tunes, i never really been able to play anything so far really) so...well, i am a beginner when it comes to playing music, not so much on techniques or music theory. I am slowly working my way around though.
As for sharing what we have found usefull for learning, that's why i posted that earlier. Going down through 1rst, 2nd and 3rd position is a required learning path. The farther you get away from them, the more able you are to play in any key on the same harp and the less position start to make sense. You don't even need more than one harp when you can play on the 12 keys. And you actually don't want to switch harp so much as you loose the capacity to ear your harp in advance. it's harder to trully improvise (hear a line and play it in any key) if you simply rely on position and grab a harp in any key. It's more muscle memory than spontaneous creativity or simply making music. You could be washing you dishes, it would be as demanding for your brain.
Position playing is usefull for the first 3 but i highly doubt it is the higher you go. Everybody knows what straigh, cross and double cross harp is since it has been used for over a century. Could you easily identify what typical 7th position, is supposed to be ? It's just playing in the key that happens to be 7 cases away from the key of your harp on the circle of fifth. It's doable with ob but there is no real sound of a 7th position, just the key signature of whatever note happens to be there.
However, playing in the key signature of the first, second and third position will get you something really different than cross harp or double cross harp. That's why imo spending time on figuring out what 7th, 8th or 11th position are is a waste of time. Where is the tradition/history for those ?
That's also why a lot of people playing in 2nd position don't really like ob. There is no history of cross harp with ob. Once you add OB to the historic position, you are already doing something else than position playing.
Last Edited by Kaining on Oct 30, 2015 2:00 PM
I kind of understand what you are saying. I add ob6 to 2nd pos. And 3rd. It's the only OB I play. 4th position provides an easy natural minor scale and I think it's completely valid and useful concept to have. When I began playing over I VI II V changes, based on using the cross key for the I chord, thinking of the positions I found to be quite a handy way for me to memorise the scales and arpeggios. Using 2nd for the I chord, 5th for the VI, 4th for the II (or more usually, the ii) and 3rd for the V. Then also, for the Bridge of such songs sometimes 1st position, 12th position, 6th. I used a so-called country tuned harp, which makes some of these scales more accessible and versatile to a non-overblow player. Anyway, the concept of position is fine IMHO. It's up to the individual how they use it. After a while, whatever method you use you will develop familiarity. Positions for me is a kind of mental shorthand, but it could be a bit of a trap if one didn't put in a little work to explore what each position offers and what the limits are. If you can overblow fluently I suppose there is not so much limitation. I think I'd rather play chromatic harp if I felt limited by the diatonic. For me, with a country tuned harp and a 6 overblow, and familiarity with the scale possibilities of the various positions...the main limitation is my interest and motivation
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 30, 2015 3:26 PM
Kaining - Thanks for elaborating. Lots of interesting thoughts in there.
First off, given that this is the beginner's forum I think it's important to be clear that positions are a conventional way to approach and discuss the harp. But later you may find your own way around that makes more sense to you musically/individually. I think we probably agree on that.
Personally I only really use 1st, 2nd, 3rd and bit of 5th. But I do understand that other positions are well suited to particular melodies or indeed whole styles of music.
There's a general notion I've seen floating around that music theory really only describes what musicians do spontaneously - something like that. I'm sure there's an element of truth, but what I've discovered time and time again when looking at theory is that the answer to why a particular piece sounds the way it does is down to a musician adopting a framework (e.g. choice of scale, altered chord etc.) and working with that. As an example I present Steely Dan and their mu-major chord.
It's nothing radical to say that human creativity works best when pushing at the envelope of an apparently constrictive form or structure: a sonnet, dance forms used in the movements a piano sonata, a jazz improv based on scale.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 31, 2015 12:22 AM
Also an interesting point about "There is no history of cross harp with OB".
I came into this via Adam's videos and MBH and so I was listening to him playing OBs, particularly the 6OB with crossharp right from the start (Adam plays mostly crossharp). So I learnt how to do it, just another technique to learn, right? And who wouldn't want to be able to play the minor/blue 3rd in the upper octave?? It was only later that I started going back through history to find a different vibe - where people treated the lower half as essentially chromatic and the upper half as essentially diatonic. I made a choice to go with that. Just for fun and because I like it - the sound of it, I'm not a purist-traditionalist.
It's important to understand that there is a modernist view of the harp where using OB to play chromatically on a diatonic is the convention and the goal. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a choice.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 31, 2015 12:23 AM
On a practical note, here is something from Andrew Zajac's website. If you learn the conventional 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions, then for free (sort of) you can have 5th, 4th, and 12th positions.
Are they useful? Up to you and what you want to play. For me, I got into using 5th position where a very minor, diminished sort of feel is called for. I probably wouldn't have explored these other positions otherwise.
Leaving aside the merits of jargon...playing different keys on the same harp is an interesting and I think an important aspect of development. I suppose it depends on what motivated one to play...but now that I'm a few years in, and had my fling with playing in a couple of bands... I'm over 50 and the things I'm willing to do in the name of entertainment are limited, as are the things I'm capable of doing... and the things I'm interested in have also changed since I first picked up a harp and really committed to developing my skills...
And maybe also, after spending quite a few hours with a player who describes what they do as finding the Jazz in the blues, and the blues in jazz..that kind of area of fairly mellow and harmonically focussed music...I think it rubbed off.. I recall speaking to a player about playing standards on the harp...he looked a little worried and then said to make sure I learned the melody first. Often, he said, you may not need to go further, but learn the melody properly... Which brings me to 'nobody knows you'... Folks have told me they play this in second, and it's easy. Check this out: madcat nobody knows you
This is 12th position on a D harp...or if you prefer, playing key of G on D harp.
If it's easy to play the song in 2nd, why would he not use a C harp? Well he would. Fact is, it's not so easy in 2nd without overblows. I copied what madcat does here (and it's easier to use a lower pitched harp btw...G harp is nice) and played with guitarist and I have to say it's much much better than faking along in second. Now, I think I'm probably not going to go down the overblow path. I play the 6, but I really enjoy playing with my tongue on the harp at the moment and I'm thinking the chromatic is probably the future of harmonica for me..but even if I stay with diatonic then learning to play in different positions is where it's at I think... Already I'm finding that traditional first position is invigorating my interest, and really can't wait to get some more 3rd position happening. Occasionally things in 12th show up...4th is interesting. 5th maybe I'll use more as time goes on...on a country tuned harp, 5th position is very versatile. Starting on 2 blow...if you have bending under control.. The 2 draw half step is the 2nd(Or 9th if you like) 2 draw/3blow the minor 3rd, 3 draw one and a half step bend is major 3rd, 3 draw whole step the 4th, 3 draw half step is flat 5th, 3 draw the 5th (already you can see that beautiful minor triad is so easy to get..2 blow, 2 draw, 3draw) the 4 blow is the minor 6th, or bend the 4 draw for the major 6th, 4 draw the flat seven and 5 blow the octave. So that octave gives a choice of natural minor, Dorian, mixolydian, plus the minor and major pentatonics and a flat 5th...if you can control the bends well. If you can overblow 4 as well then 5th position is fully chromatic in that octave. Woohoo! I didn't mention the flat 9th, but it's there as well...which is the thing to watch out for in 5th, that you don't accidentally hit it in draw 2 whole step, or draw 5 (also draw 9) With a CT harp, the draw 5 problem goes away...and you get another octave...but need the 7od for the major 6th...the trade off is the major 7th as the 8 blow bend. Why talk about 5th? I think that getting my head into 5th and playing it really helped me develop familiarity with the harmonica and the way music works. I understand it's very basic progress, but it was just like a step up from playing licks and copying into thinking and understanding a little more. And most importantly it helped start development of the mental model of the harp. 2nd, 5th, 4th, 3rd. I'd recommend anyone interested in developing their understanding of the harp to investigate the scalar possibilities of those positions. 1st also, and then also 12th and 11th, and 6th. It will really help to be able to bend...but the study will help you develop your bending also. Play the scales, play the arpeggios, try some inversions. Get hold of track with suitable chord changes, where you know what the chords are, and try playing your scale exercises with the track...your brain will change...
Superbee & MindTheGap: Very interesting couple of post, and agree with agreing with you about starting the harp and approaching it with position playing. It's important to know the roots of the instrument.
Also Superbee, what you did in your last post is slowly getting away from position theory and going into traditional theory. The problem i have with numbering position for the less "historic" one is that when you speak about 5th, it's really about E major on a C harp. However, with the same notes you can play in C# minor, G# phrygian, B mixolydian and so on... Communicating with "only" position can only give so much information about the music and you might start wondering when you listen to a few layer playing in the same position why do they sound so different, after all, cross harp players do get a vibe that is very similar, why not those player playing in 5th, 8th or 10th position ?
You are also right when you say it's about familiarity with one method or the other. In the end, it doesn't really matter what we call each thing. However, a beginner isn't familiar at all with all that and trying to be as clear as possible could help a lot of them improve faster.
Thanks for all this. I tried playing along with the Peter Madcat Ruth song. I've not studied 12th position, but it was quite easy to find many of the notes by ear. I like it, great song and delivery.
I'm just going have to point out - not for the first or last time :) - that the heavy use of 3'' in a melody, especially on a higher-key harp, is tricky even for a virtuoso. Tell me you hear it too!?. Sounds great in context like this song (down and out) - but what about in a sweet melody? Hmm. To my ears, some overbends sound better.
Rather than being critical, I take heart from this. Myself, if I wanted to play melodies, I think it would be time for the Chromatic.
I have heard people do scales in all 12 keys on a diatonic, and while it's a wonderful achievement, I don't like the sound of it. If I were more brutal I might say it actually isn't that good, objectively. What I do like the sound of though is where a player has picked a group of notes that lay out well on the harp for a particular melody. For that you need all that detailed info that SuperBee is into - and more!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 01, 2015 4:36 AM
As for people doing scales in all 12 keys and posting them on youtube, most of the time they shouldn't as they don't have bends and overbends in tune, or worse, haven't paid enough attention to the timbre of all their notes to make them hogeneous. People actually capable of playing in all 12 keys simply do that and you can't really tell that they are playing in a particular key that can't be played without some ob/bends.
There are quite a few people posting chromatics "things" on the net with bends and overbends that are completly out of tune, with bad tempo and a worse timbre that would simply bu judged as worthless if it was any other instrument. The harp community is not completly there yet in regards to chromatism over position playing.
