I've shied away from chromatic, partly because when I hear the standard reasons for doing it - Little Walter, William Clarke, George Smith... they sound fantastic but too difficult. I can't imagine getting that big sound, and it might be disappointing otherwise.
Well, I've been listening to the ColdRail Blues Band. New to me but I like their harp playing in general, and the chromatic playing on e.g. the track 'Blind Horizon', available from their Facebook page...
Go for it. Get 2 ??. I'm just a beginner at both chromatic and diatonic and I go through phases. Sometimes I feel like one and sometimes the other. Some songs or moods fit one type better than the other. I cary a diatonic in my pocket all the time, chromatic is a little more difficult for spontaneous playing unless you have a cheap unvalved practice harp. I recommend getting one as a backup/ pocket instrument. Swan has a nice one from what I hear. Mine is an old East German 10 holer that fits in an eyeglass case making it easy to haul around. Switching back and forth really isn't that hard, a scale or two and your lips and brain adjust to the different spacing and embochoure . Sometimes I think it is easier than switching from a Seydel to a Suzuki diatonic because the feel and spacing are so different my lips don't get confused. Don't be intimidated by the button, it is much easier than bending. Another thing. Chromatic harps come in solo tuning. Get it retuned to Bebop. A tiny little change, but for me it makes it so much easier and natural to play. Just ask Gnarly.
MTG...Get one. I had 3 given to me about 5 years back. Didn't really do anything with them till 2 years ago. If you play 3rd position on the diatonic, then the chromatic in its most basic playing is the same. The ones I have are a CBH, a 270 in the key of A, and a 260 in C. The 260 is cool because of it being a 10 holer, I too keep it in a clamshell eyeglass case. Since I started playing the chromatic in earnest, My toungh blocking has gotten so much better. I now do a lot more thing on the short harps.
I recommend getting 2 also. A good 12 holer and a 10 holer. The 10 like a 260 will travel very easily. Go for it bro.
Edited for spelling. ----------
I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Nov 05, 2015 4:46 AM
Thanks folks. That's the kind of encouragement I need. Those chromatics do get expensive though. So I looked at the Swan either the 10-40 or 12-48 or indeed 16-64 and they seem to get very positive reviews, but I'm wary of wasting money something that doesn't really work.
With the diatonic I went through a pack of Bluesbands before I got to SP20s and the like. Some of the Bluesbands worked but some were actually unplayable.
Is the swan chromatic like a bluesband - sort of works but not really?
These days you can buy a guitar for £100 or something and it may not be the best but it does actually work: you can tune it, the frets are flat, neck is straight,the electrics work. That wasn't always the case. I wonder where the cheap chromatics sit?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 05, 2015 11:26 PM
I bought a secondhand 270 on eBay...'as new, unwanted gift'. Pretty good instrument. Left it where the sunshine hit it one day...I gather the reed plates expanded just enough to crack the comb...when i found it the gap in the comb was wide...unplayable so I put it away in its box. Next time I looked at it the gap was gone, crack hard to see. Lesson in that. I bought a CX12 in similar circumstances. I really like it. Seems there may be a few 'tried it, didn't like it' experiences resulting in bargain instruments. CX 12 is pretty easy to disassemble for cleaning. Valves the only drama. Guy I bought mine from had only ever played holes 1 to 5...and not much. But besides that...personally I'm of the view it doesn't hurt to get the right stuff and avoid the angst. The pain of the expenditure will fade faster than the irritation caused by a poor instrument...whenever I've gone low quality I always end up upgrading eventually.
Superbee - yes that's where I'm coming from. But it's the Goldilocks problem.
With the diatonic: £7 harp, no good. £200 custom harp, I don't need the features. £30 SP20/Lee Oskar/Harpmaster (plus a toothpick) just right.
The Suzuki Fabulous F-48S is £2,250. The Seydel Chromatic Standard (also 12 holes) is £60. What kind of choice is that? The Swan 1040 (10 holes) is £16!
Maybe I'll ask on the main forum too (gulp).
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 06, 2015 1:32 AM
I bought a pre war 270 also. I will not put it to my mouth until I get a new comb, tune and revalve it. I paid $27 aud for the as is unit, with original wooden case. So that's prewar reed plates, slider, mouthpiece and covers. i think the value is ok...but maybe a folly
When I first started to learn the harmonica last year, I became curious about the chromatics, especially when I found tabs for tunes that required bending skills on the diatonic.
I didn't want to spend much so I figured I'd just get a cheapie swan 1040 (I think I paid about £12!) and get a feel for the instrument first.
I have to say I was very happy with it, bearing in mind how little I paid for it. You won't get the same tone as a more expensive model, and although the 1040 is unvalved it was still quite playable.
Nowadays we have more reviews of the 1248 and it's still economical so I wouldn't bother with the 1040, unless the portability was an overriding factor.
Last I looked into it, it pays to get the correct version of the 1248, some are better than others.
But do your homework and I'm sure you'd be very happy with your first chromatic, and no doubt looking for your second. .. ---------- Forum Search Direct Link
I've heard good things about the Swan 10 holer. The newer 12 holers are supposed to be nice too. I don't know anything about the cheap unvalved12 hole Seydel, but the Seydel Deluxe is very nice and can be ordered in any tuning you want. I have a Suzuki SCX 12 hole in D that I really like the sound and feel of and you could probably get a dozen SCX 12 hole harps for the price of a fabulous.
Ta. I'm not in the market of buying an old one and doing it up, so... I can what you say about having two, a 10 holer and a bigger on. There's enough good comments about the Swan to give it a try. If I get the Swan 1040, then I can see if it is rubbish or not, and that would inform the choice of the 14 or 16 hole instrument.
Then I go onto the Swan website and there are loads of different models both of the 1040 and the 1248 - round mouthpiece, thick plates... none of which match up with the actual models I can see in the UK in shops or ebay.
One of them says "hole 9 and 10 are different from solo tuning when blow".
Good grief.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 06, 2015 10:52 PM
MTG... Which ever route you go, consider this. If you want to save a bit up front, and whatever medel you go with, if it has a wooden comb, assume that at some point the comb may crack. By the time it does you will most likely be skilled enough with it to want to up grade. A couple of ways to do this.
If you get a 260 or 270 for example, you can send it to someone for a comb upgrade to something like a corian or other man made material. With that you'll have basically new harp that will then have screws holding it all together. Thus making it easier to work on yourself. (Chroms can be a maintenance beast). Or if you want you can just get a less expensive new one and then invest more $ on down the line when you're ready.
Like I mentioned earlier, I was blessed to have mine given to me. But the 260 & 270, though quite playable, have cracks. So I'll be sending them to Mike Easton of Fathead Musical Instruments to have them overhauled. So check around your area to see who may be able to service it just in case.
I've read a load of conflicting web reviews now and my head's spinning. The Swan is great/The Swan is unplayable. I'll probably just buy a 10-holer and get on with it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 06, 2015 10:22 AM
Apart from choosing an instrument, on the topic of inspiration...I feel you can of course take it where you find it. I actually can relate to the idea that it's intimidating to aspire to the example of the truly great players...I feel like that about sonny terry and to a lesser extent sonny boy 2...and Howard levy, Jason Ricci...and others...and I have been tempted to be inspired on some level by mediocre players...the idea that I can probably 'get there'...and that it is obviously OK to be only that good... Over time though, that kind of aiming low to avoid disappointment isn't very satisfying. It's like, self-fulfilling. As christelle used to say, (paraphrasing her quote)don't aspire to sound like someone else, aim to be the best you can be. We have so much material to draw on, if you really want to you can learn pretty much anything you want. The question is whether you want a thing badly enough to make the sacrifices required to do it. I'm not sure about chromatic, or even the harmonica..but I haven't given up on it entirely...yet. I do think it's possibly an enormous use of time and energy which I could use in other ways...if I could only resolve the philosophical quandary of what I think about that, I might do something else...gardening seems to hold potential.
And...that's my last post until Friday...so I hope you all have a very good 'week' and I'll check back in next weekend..
Superbee - well I need a bit of both. It's about stepping stones. I'm talking about being inspired by hearing something that both a) sounds great and b) is achievable in the near future. I can be inspired by the unachievable too! But that's different - a long-term thing rather than the here and now.
On the diatonic, after a long period of listening to the greats, I had a bit of breakthrough by doing a sweep of the players on Adam's 'others' list. I remember I was first grabbed by Snooky Pryor. He doesn't get a great press on MBH but I loved what I heard, and I could understand what he was doing. I could take some of it and use it right away.
rogonzab - thanks! Fantastic, of course. When I get a chromatic, I'll pick a few of the simpler phrases from this. If they sound even remotely like DG then this will be an inspiration too :)
That's a good example actually. I love listening to DG on the chromatic but I know it would take 1000's of hours and probably a radical change of lifestyle to get that. It would also take 1000s of hours to learn to play classical music properly on a chromatic - but I'm not drawn by the end result. When I learnt (classical) piano, I was drawn by the end result and also there are lots of staging posts on the way i.e. graded pieces that do sound good.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 09, 2015 2:42 AM
If anyone has any more inspirational blues-chromatic examples, I'd be glad to hear them! Especially at the simpler end of things.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 09, 2015 4:08 AM
Ok the merchandise arrived just now, all present and correct thank you!
You asked for it - I tried it in the kitchen and my wife gave it the thumbs up and started grooving about. So I rushed off to the shed and you are blessed to hear my first chromatic fumblings.
Thing is, even though I can't play it yet, I like the basic sound right off the bat. It took chuffing ages to get a sound I liked on the diatonic. That's a good sign. What's this blinking button for? :)
Now I've got to put it down and get back to work.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 17, 2015 3:52 AM
Thanks. Just to repeat a big thank you to Crawforde for the instrument. Nicely packed too.
I'm in two minds how to approach this.
A. Learn 1st/3rd position blues, as I learnt diatonic i.e. positions, holes and breathing patterns. I like the sound but it's just the one key. I'm already stuck into 3rd position on the diatonic, and I've got many keys.
B. Learn it as a proper chromatic instrument - scales, reading from standard notation. Then I'll be able to play tunes. Appealing, but probably hard work. And maybe wind up being able to read from music, but not play by ear so easily?
What do you think?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 18, 2015 1:25 AM
Personally I would go with Option B (that's what I am trying to do). I would guess that while it might be a bit slower, you already have an "ear" and I don't think you will lose that, it might just get retrained . Why not just learn a couple of tunes on the chromatic in C then try to transcribe and learn them in other keys. Seydel has the tab tool that will help with that. You will have to "cheat" and use tabs , but using the tool it is easy to transcribe between keys and tuning patterns. Enter something that you play a lot and know well on the diatonic, then translate it into multiple keys on the chromatic. Now, you are much better than I am so take my words with a grain of salt.
Yes I think that would be more satisfying in the long run. My initial thoughts are that the breath pattern for even the C-Major scale is quite odd, so goodness knows what it will be like for other scales.
I remember being surprised by the layout of notes on the diatonic - thinking why on earth would anyone design it like that? At least it has some logic in terms of the blow/draw chord tones. I'll have to understand the logic of the chromatic solo tuning.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 18, 2015 2:14 PM
C Diatonic holes 4-7. Repeat, do it again. The slide always raises whatever note you are blowing A to A# etc... Bebop tuning takes that repeated C note and makes it a Bb. Now you have full C and F scales without touching the button, and no breath direction changes. The harp I play now starts on G3 then when it hits C 4 it is just like a regular bebop tuned harp. You lose the two top holes and pick up two lower ones. I like it, still getting used to it, but liking it. Gnarley is really good with this stuff and reading his old posts over at slidemeister got me hooked on bebop tuning. He does retuning too, and does a nice job.
Last Edited by Crawforde on Nov 18, 2015 7:37 PM
Depends on what your vision is for the chromatic. Option "B" is by far the way that will offer you more flexibility in the long run.
I took trombone lessons in 4th grade for band. Never could get the hang of reading notes. But I had a real good ear and memory. So I could play the practice material after I heard it. Plus I fooled around with the slide to see where the notes were. Bagged it after a few months. Fast forward a bit, and here we are with the chromatic. I still can't read notes. So I work on the bebop scale and work the button when playing some songs to figure out when a good place is to add a sharp or flat. Slowly it's starting to make sense.
I like the idea that once one gets fairly good with a C chromatic, you should be able to sit in with most any one and jam along in any key and sound decent. In the mean time, I keep 5 essential keyed diatonics in my bag just to be sure. ----------
Thanks for the ideas. I think what I'll do to start with is go with standard tuning, and look at bebop tuning if/when I've found my feet. There's clearly something in it.
I really like the idea of being able to play in many keys, although as I understand it you only get those nice fat chords in D (or with the button in all the time). So I'll need to get used to a more single-note kind of approach.
Last night just for fun I tried it with the group on a song in D - what a big noise. Basically some of those chords and a few phrases based on the blues scale as in the experiments below (first on a diatonic then the chromatic).
I'll try working up a scale in a different useful scale for blues, like E so I can try that out.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 20, 2015 6:37 AM
Question - one or two of the notes make a rattle which I guess are the windsavers. Can you point me at some instructions to fix that?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 20, 2015 6:36 AM
Nice playing. You make that thing sing better than I ever did already! The rattle is the wind savers. If you keep playing with chromatics you will learn to hate them. And love them. The biggest trick is to warm the harp up before playing. Put it in a clean sock and put it in your pocket for a while while you are playing the diatonic. Then give it a good rub until you can feel the metal warm up before playing. Happiness is a warm chromatic!
Thank you for the kind words. Keep 'em coming! A journey of a thousand miles...
Thanks also for the tip about windsavers and warming. Having a chromatic harmonica in a sock in my pocket makes me think of Spinal Tap (the airport metal detector scene, if you know that) but I appreciate the physics!
I've read up about the windsavers now, and clearly it's something I'll need to learn how to work on and replace sometimes. I need to find a source of windsavers in the UK. There is a lot of discussion around about windsavers including replacement materials.
I found that on one buzzy note the windsaver was lying will a little bend in it, and some gentle straightening made it lie flat and sound good.
I'm impressed with the build quality of the instrument btw. The slide is very smooth. All the notes sound easily aside from one high note that just needed a tiny tweak. Which out of 48 reeds is very good going. Much better than most diatonic harps I've bought.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 22, 2015 3:07 AM
If I may jump in on this thread...very late and ignorant. Dumb question...what does the slide do ? Sharpen ? Flatten? Change the octave ? I just don't get it. Are the notes on a chromatic laid out the same as a solo tuned diatonic ?
Ah ha. The slide always raises whatever note you are playing by a semitone. At least that bit is simple.
Armed with that knowledge, a nice discovery was now I've learned (at least roughly) the C major scale, I'm find I'm able to read tunes from lead sheets, and not just in C either. That's coz I'm familiar with the sharps and flats for a number of keys from the piano. I wouldn't call it sight reading, too slow, but certainly reading.
Sorry but I don't know about the solo tuned diatonic.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 24, 2015 8:31 AM
