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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
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Gary 62
90 posts
Nov 24, 2015
8:33 AM
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When people tell you to learn songs what exactly do they mean on harp? I mean is it the main riff and then to improvise in it? A lot of blues things sound the same so it's kind of difficult. I just play solo so it is more awkward i suppose to learn songs. Kinda confusing. I learn the stuff Adam has posted up. Particular fave's are the solo harp one and all the one's where it's a steady rhythm interspersed with cool licks and stuff. But i don't see how to mix that in with a song repertoire. Say 'Spoonful' for example that opening riff of the tonic to the blue 3rd but how do you learn the rest of the song? Sorry if this sounds kinda dumb i hope you understand what i mean!!
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MindTheGap
786 posts
Nov 24, 2015
8:54 AM
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Good question. I think it really does depend on the setting. My own focus is playing with a band, and I think that needs something quite different from playing solo. So I tend to work out several parts to work with each song, and deploy them as necessary...
1. Something for the intro, if there is one. Often based on the tune in some way.
2. Some plan for solo(s)
3. Something for comping (fills, rhythm whatever).
Normally I try to nick something good from a version I like. To avoid the 'all songs sounding the same' effect I feel the key thing is to match the harp part to the groove. If there is a characteristic hook, riff or rhythm then make mention of that in a solo.
When playing with the full band I might do very light comping, but when there are fewer people playing I might do more. If I were in e.g. a duo (which I'm not) I'd do a lot more.
If I was playing solo like you, then yes I'd be working on those Adam-style pieces where he mixes up rhythm and licks. Sounds great.
Spoonful is a tricky one, as that riff is so prominent. I don't think I'd know to approach that solo. Someone else will I'm sure. We play Spoonful and I just go for what's on the record - nice and simple sounds good over the band.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 24, 2015 8:54 AM
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SuperBee
2982 posts
Nov 24, 2015
1:22 PM
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Hi Gary
Check this out. (The link to you tube at the bottom of post) It is fairly advanced but it's the first example I thought of.
Note how Richard is playing a bass pattern to start, then he sings and inserts the bass between vocal lines, so the time and chordal structure comes through. Helps him stay in key vocally too no doubt. Then he plays the melody on the high end, still interspersing the bass pattern, but he has transposed some of it to the higher octave.
That's one approach. Richard is of course a very experienced player.
Chugging chords and interspersing riffs is one way, and valid. Definitely worth getting a couple of songs down that use that approach. But also, I personally am a big fan of learning some bass lines. The one Richard uses in this clip is essentially in 1st position, but maybe a good second position line to start with would be the old
2, 3, 4, +5, 5, +5, 4, 3
(On bass that's a root, 3rd, 5th 6th, dom7 and back).
Count 1234, 2234 when you play the pattern above.
Play it again but this time play the 6 blow instead of the draw 5.
When you play it the second time, count 3234, 4234
Then you'll need to change chords for the next two measures. But see how you get on with the above exercise. You'll recognise it I'm sure.
http://youtu.be/y6q1x18cmgs
Last Edited by SuperBee on Nov 24, 2015 1:23 PM
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Fil
75 posts
Nov 24, 2015
2:14 PM
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I've gotten that advice, and more or less ignored it for a while, concentrating on riffs and trying to learn someone's solo. Then, last summer, sitting outside with a bunch of friends, one of them challenged me to pull out my harp that he knows I always carry. I am at best an early intermediate player. I could remember the lyrics of only a couple of songs, although I had the harp parts down reasonably well. This wasn't a blues crowd, so just the harp parts wouldn't cut it. I sang what I could. I am not a comfortable performer in that kind of setting, but it was a ball. And the harp parts came easier and it all seemed to make sense. So now I am spending more time learning songs, lyrics and harp, and even if I sing only to myself, it seems to work better. The harp solos seem to come easier because there is a context or something. I still send time on my vibrato, scales, noodling, bends, but lyrics, grooves, and harp packaged together in a song has made it more challenging and fun... and useful. My harp vocabulary is growing.
So, yeah, learn songs.
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Phil Pennington
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Gary 62
91 posts
Nov 24, 2015
5:34 PM
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SuperBee: Thanks for the suggestions and the link, i'll be studying up on that too!
Fil: yeah i kinda equate it to playing electric guitar in a way. I am a guitar player too, so when someone rips on guitar with a lot of technique and stuff i love it, but i notice ordinary people don't really understand what you're doing! They expect to hear something structured like a song with a melody and so on. So when a guitarist exhibits his/her chops they don't really understand and can't relate to what they're doing and the hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice it takes to do that on an instrument.
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SuperBee
2984 posts
Nov 24, 2015
6:57 PM
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Cheers Gary...as a guitarist you'll be familiar with this stuff no doubt..
Repetition is king...you have to have some repetition to give the listener the idea of the song...and some variation to keep them interested...mtg suggested good things
I was just thinking about some of the harp instrumental pieces, where sometimes the turnarounds are the common link throughout the song. Or the same turnaround like is used a few times and then varied ..and sometimes returns near the end...
Also, ending licks. There are some famous cliches for endings. Good to learn some of those. Also openings. Often a blues number will have a 4 bar intro...listen to Jr wells 'early in the morning' and 'please throw this poor dog a bone'. You can use these intros and variations of them in numerous songs. Another good one (common) is on James Cotton's 'blues in my sleep'. Often used in a slow blues...
But yeah...mtg had good suggestions re structures I think.
On bass lines, they are also cool to learn because they will teach you to transpose the chord tones across the changes. If you learn a box pattern like root 5 dom7 octave (2, 4, 5, +6), then jump to the IV chord and play +1, +3, 3', +4, and on the V chord it's 1, 3", +4, 4....apart from playing a cool bass line that you can insert some other licks in, you are also learning the chord tones in 1st 2nd and 3rd positions and developing a mental model of the harp...which really helps improvisation beyond rote licks. And of course playing the bass rewards your sense of time and helps generally organise your playing.
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Gary 62
92 posts
Nov 24, 2015
8:41 PM
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SuperBee: Thanks a lot for all the suggestions and help. One i've been working on getting cleanly is one of Adam's videos where he does a version of a Ray Charles song 'What'd i say?' It's pretty hard with the octave splits with the tongue block and then getting the bends in #2 and #3 accurate and on pitch. It's on the Ray Charles 2 video Adam did.
Cheers man.
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MindTheGap
788 posts
Nov 25, 2015
12:04 AM
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Lots of great suggestions here, thank you SuperBee. I'll be studying these.
I love that version of Honest I Do. And Adam's hi-energy What'd I Say. Good contrast between styles, Adam fills all the space and Richard's is sparser. I find I can't do that Adam's wall-to-wall thing, or not for very long. I really do like the style where the groove is sort of implied. I don't think I can do that either!
Re your point in the OP Gary ...is it the main riff and then to improvise in it.... I'll suggest that the jazz thing is to play the tune then go off on your improvisation. But for me, for blues, I'd rather hear the main tune/riff/hook repeated more blatantly. Agree/Disagree?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 25, 2015 12:20 AM
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2chops
440 posts
Nov 25, 2015
6:07 AM
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Lots of really good tips above. But here's my take on it. To learn some songs is in the vein of learning the melody lines. I figure that if you know the lyrics and can play the melody, then it's easier to improvise around them. You know where the song is headed. Plus if someone asks you to play something, then you have something recognizable at your disposal. It's that simple. I remember Adam in one of his vids say that at some point someone will ask you to play a song. And that is when you will if you're a real harmonica player or not. Can you play a song? Even if it's only one song. In the beginning stages of my journey this was a big motivator for me.
And let's face it. In the blues genre, if you know just one song in side and out, then you really know at least 10 others due to the common pattern that most of them follow. Like my dad used to say. You only need one gun as long as you learn how to shoot it, and shoot it well.
Edited to add, this my post #440. Look at the page header and you'll get it.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Nov 25, 2015 6:08 AM
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Gary 62
93 posts
Nov 25, 2015
8:09 AM
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MTG: Yeah i agree, totally. Personally while i like some jazz, i find that i can't take that style where the soloing just takes off into outer space and you really can't tell what song they're actually playing! In a lot of jazz it just seems to become an atonal mess.
2chops: Yeah the bit about someone will ask you to play a song. That's so true. As i said because people who aren't musicians just want to hear that, a good tune a melody. A lot of just noodling around won't cut it, even if it's good noodling! You need to be able to play something that's kinda structured more i think.
'A 440' i get it! Pretty cool.
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Nov 25, 2015 8:12 AM
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MindTheGap
789 posts
Nov 25, 2015
9:50 AM
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For the record, I'm not being critical of jazz. I'm just saying that's the general approach. As far as I can tell, blues tends to be more repetitive. I've listened to a lot of blues harmonica over the last few years and I've not really heard that kind of 'play the tune, play lots of variations, return to the tune' kind of thing.
2chops - that's a real call to action. I want to learn some songs now. I've got say I'm now though I'm learning towards playing actual tunes on the chromatic. It's great having all the notes available, all with a consistent tone and stability of intonation.
I'm still not convinced about tunes on the diatonic. But there are some pieces specially for the harp. In the UK the Old Grey Whistle Test theme is instantly recognisable for many (of a certain age??). That's totally harp-specific.
...oh yes and congratulations on your 440Hz post. The next one will be a little sharp...
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 25, 2015 10:02 AM
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MindTheGap
790 posts
Nov 25, 2015
10:10 AM
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Let me contradict myself (a bit) now. I was thinking about picking three identifiable pieces to play and one that came to mine was 'work song' coz I learnt that a while ago. I put on the Paul Butterfield version, and lo and behold, it starts with the tune, then goes into variations, then returns to the tune.
I guess it's the grey area: 'Jazzy'.
https://youtu.be/xO2JAA47Mgk
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 25, 2015 10:11 AM
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Gary 62
94 posts
Nov 25, 2015
12:10 PM
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MTG: Ah the OGWT theme! Yeah i can play that! I learnt it off a guy on YT who did a lesson. An English guy he was, can't remember his name. He does a lot of YT lessons. Wasn't Steve Baker. Hmmm Ben something was it. Can't remember.
Anyway what harp was that played on originally? I seem to remember he taught the tune on a 'C' but i've been playing it on my 'C' and also on the 'A' i have.
Great piece that i love it.
Also about playing tunes on the harp which you mentioned: i was listening last night to Stan Getz and Bill Evans on the 'But Beautiful' album they did. Anyway on 'The Peacocks' the 3 note kind of theme caught my ear and soul so i thought 'if i could play that on harp.' So i tried but couldn't get it on pitch to match the song. So i transposed it and played it in cross harp. So i got the root but the other two notes had to be got by 4OB and 5OB. Now that's hard! Getting the OB's to ring out instantly and naturally to fit the phrasing is very hard.
Ah well maybe with a few more years of practice it'll feel more natural.
Here's the album link. This is a haunting song. Last song on the album it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xh3IMWzF_s
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Nov 25, 2015 12:23 PM
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2chops
443 posts
Nov 25, 2015
12:22 PM
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Work Song! Good one for both the diatonic & chrom. I often open with it when I do my omb gigs. Another good one to play is Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho. You can do it in either 2nd or 3rd on the diatonic. And again, sounds great on the chrom. Each way has a different feel to it. Most everyone will recognize it.
MTG...Playing an LO for this one. Being a bit sharp and all. Although it's a Bb harp. Bd da dum !
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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MindTheGap
791 posts
Nov 25, 2015
2:36 PM
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Gary - Ben Hewlett? Well, it was only when I started learning harmonica that I found that OGWT theme I'd grown up with was by Area Code 615, a group of session musicians including Charlie McCoy. It starts with an A harp and then moves around to other keys. Of course I'd only ever heard the first 15 seconds or whatever!
https://youtu.be/qizk3MTuc2U
Loved the 'Peacocks' piece. So much I had to try the little theme on chromatic. Look mum I've got all these notes! :)
2chops :) - ok I'll have to try 'work song' on chromatic too. Joshua - yes nice one, I'm giving that a go too.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 25, 2015 2:39 PM
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Gary 62
95 posts
Nov 25, 2015
5:16 PM
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MTG: That sounded great! It really did. It didn't sound like that when i tried it LOL! What kind of chromatic is it? I think i'll have to get one of those for playing more jazz type things. Trouble is chromatic is very expensive isn't it? You had a beautiful tone there and vibrato too. Just magic.
Edit: Oops forgot to add; Ben Hewlett, that's him! That's where i learnt that OGWT piece from. A nice little lesson he did on it somewhere on YT.
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Nov 25, 2015 5:18 PM
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MindTheGap
792 posts
Nov 26, 2015
8:53 AM
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Thank you for the kind words. It's the one that Crawforde sold me (on the other thread). A US model "Soul's Voice" - nice name eh? 12 holes. Anyway it's not one of the big-name ones. Everything works though.
Now I have a working one. and based on how much I like it, I may get a Swan 10-holer just to carry around. That was the advice I got (see other thread).
Ben Hewlett - he's got a teaching website, writes books and is chairman of the UK's National Harmonica League when I last looked. And is involved in a web shop http://sonnyboysmusicstore.co.uk/ Interesting because as well as selling your SP20s and so on, they sell their own brand Sonnyboy's. They've got different models with different intonations - I bought the one with Just Intonation to try that and it was very good. Lovely smooth chords. I've had some lessons with Ben (in person and via Skype) and I enjoyed them a lot.
...anyway...back to the thread. I'm really enjoying practising work song and Jericho. I need a third song...any more ideas?
I don't busk, myself, and as I mentioned everything is directed to playing with the band, but I'm thinking exactly of that time as 2Chops says, when I'm in a group of people and they say: go on play something then.
I did work out a sort of show off piece running up and down the harp with that in mind, but it's not a tune.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 26, 2015 9:02 AM
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2chops
444 posts
Nov 26, 2015
11:37 AM
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MTG...If you want a nice slower one that's seasonal and hugely popular, Mary Do You Know lays out nicely in 4th position on the diatonic. Play in key of D on an A harp beginning on the 5 draw. Get that and you can do it on the chromatic too.
A standard boogie woogie is always a crowd pleaser too. Lots of ways to improve off ofca boogie.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Nov 26, 2015 11:38 AM
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Rontana
224 posts
Nov 26, 2015
2:34 PM
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@Gary62
I play solo 99.999 percent of the time, so maybe this will be of some value to you.
I don't really have any plans or desires to busk or play with a band, and really just do this for my own enjoyment . Part of the enjoyment is trying to get as good as I can no matter how long it takes. Most of it is to simply make some music.
Whatever the case, playing songs is a big part of my practice routine. In between scales and riffs and bending exercises it just makes things much much more fun
I'm writing this list for me as much as anything, as I've never thought about it enough to put down my song list on paper (well, virtual paper) before. On the other hand, maybe they will give someone else a few ideas. I chose all these because they made me work on areas where I was (and still am, usually) having a bit of trouble. They're also songs I liked where the melody was already in my head.
Some of the songs I got from Adam, some from jon Gindick's book (Bluesify your melody) others I just transposed and/or learned by ear. I do all of them on a C harp.
These all give a workout on one thing or another - bends, warbles, scoops, vibrato, speed, etc. Some sound okay, some are still rough, all are a good time. Your mileage may vary. I think everyone has to find their own list.
One thing I've learned is that, even if they aren't traditional blues songs, once you get any song down a bit you can change things up and play it with a bluesy groove.
Second Position Tunes:
Mercy, Mercy, Mercy
Chicken Shack
Midnight Special
Summertime
Who'll Stop The Rain
Have You Ever Seen The Rain
Bad Moon Rising
Trouble In Mind
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Amazing Grace
Swing Low Sweet Chariot
Will The Circle Be Unbroken
House of the Rising Sun
Third Position:
St. John's Infirmary
First Position:
Brown Eyed Girl
Bring It On Home (I like this one a lot, as it's fun to play using just single notes, just chords, or all octave splits)
Over The Rainbow
What A Wonderful World
Whiter Shade of Pale
Hallelujah
Edited: I just thought of something. If you want to hear great examples of songs/melodies on the harp, you just have to go to Youtube and remember one word . . . Christelle (though I should also mention Todd Parrott . . . they're probably my two favorite players)
Last Edited by Rontana on Nov 26, 2015 6:12 PM
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MindTheGap
793 posts
Nov 27, 2015
3:55 AM
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Good ideas in that list. I like the idea of working up a boogie to play solo too. Here's my work in progress on Jericho and Work Song. Turns out Jericho (in 3rd position) is a good workout for those 2 and 3 hole bends in the lower octave. Included the dreaded 3'' (whole step bend). Dreaded by me, certainly...
Why am I posting these snippets? As an encouragement to others to post too!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 27, 2015 4:15 AM
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Gary 62
96 posts
Nov 27, 2015
8:11 AM
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MTG: Those were great. Melodic, and your vibrato is superb. I like 'Jericho' the best. I love how you started it with single notes and then as the song went on you brought in other harmony notes to it. 'Work Song' is killer too though! What key of harp are you using?
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2chops
446 posts
Nov 27, 2015
8:47 AM
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Very nice indeed MTG. Well done. For a good sample of Jericho in 2nd position, look up Peg Leg Sam. It's the version that I base mine on. Single notes and loose chords. I like the way he will swap out the word Jericho with a harp chord.
There is so much that can be done with both of those songs. The list that Rontana had some of my faves too. Swing Low, Summertime, Amazing Grace. Gindick has a good tutorial vid for Summertime.
I need to post more sample of what I'm working on at the moment. But it really sucks up my data allotment and my wife gets kind of wound up about it due to the extra charges. So I have to be judicious about it.
Edited for spelling.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Nov 27, 2015 12:11 PM
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Rontana
225 posts
Nov 27, 2015
10:47 AM
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MTG . . . .
Both sound great, but I love your version of Jericho. I'll post some stuff soon too. Think I've still got a SoundCloud account set up.
I like your idea of posting short snippets. Maybe we should set up a specific "Post Your 1-minute Performance" thread (not that they have to be one minute). That might be kinda' cool . . . an abbreviated version of the "Virtual back porch" on the main forum
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