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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Mental model of harmonica
Mental model of harmonica
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SuperBee
3077 posts
Dec 14, 2015
1:20 PM
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I want to start a thread on this topic which I think is very important.
I'm short of time though, so I'll just mention a couple things:
There's a video by Lee sankey which discusses the topic. I'll find and post later if no one beats me to it (please feel free)
I wonder if people who already have a mental model for another instrument are more adept at forming an analogue for harmonica, or any instrument really. Does it become easier to pick up another instrument when you have already developed your musical understanding of one instrument?
A couple of things I noticed have helped me start to get a grip on the harmonica note layout in a flash knowledge type of way, as distinct from being able to describe the layout in a thinking way...
I noticed that learning scales I various positions made me rather more familiar with the notes and layout and to start thinking in terms of scale degree number
Working with chord tones reinforced this, making me aware of the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and also whether the 3rd was major or minor for instance.
Spending some time with a country tuned harp, which I feared would confuse me, actually helped clarify a lot of this as it made me really think about where I was on the harp at any moment and whether I needed to play 5 draw straight or bent. In other words that strange note in the middle of the harp bumped me out of a comfort zone which allowed me to play without consciousness. Consequently I began to learn instead of play patterns....it got my mindfulness going.
And similarly, playing different positions has made me mindful. I didn't really 'get' the top end, but recently playing first position I was studying one of Adam G's lessons and suddenly I realised...9 blow is the 5th (in first pos) so if I bend it, that's the flat 5th...that's like wailing on 4 draw in 2nd position and bending it...oh!
And from there it's an easy step to see 8 blow is the 3rd and the bend is making it minor and a bit of a dip is like the blue third if you can listen for it...oh and the root and octave of that chord are the the 7 blow and 10 blow...and the 10 blow bend a whole step is the flat 7...there is s whole bluesy 7 chord laid out on blow 7,8,9,10...
And playing with this...this extra bit of info just cemented a picture in my mind...
The cool thing about that is that I can suddenly play the top end of the harp when I'm playing in second position and the song changes to the IV chord...I just know I can go to the top and the notes which will work...and that has bugged me for years. Stuck in the lower half of the harp...no more...but I needed to have the picture in my mind
Btw I know if you can't bend the high notes it's not quite the same, but it's still really worth developing playing there and eventually the bending will happen. I avoided it too long...because I was told it was hard and would take years and maybe I'd never get it...so I put it off as I thought I should focus on more fruitful angles...that's an error in several ways..
Anyway...mind mapping the harmonica...for me the trick seems to involve getting out of my learned, ingrained patterns and being conscious of what I'm playing. Playing familiar things I think can really help technique which is important...how to get a sound you like...but the mental model is important for knowing what to play, making choices...which is where I really struggle outside of pieces I've actually studied and memorised.
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Ian
177 posts
Dec 14, 2015
5:25 PM
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Very interesting post.
I find that the making of the harp is absolutely critical to me moving forwards... Its something I'm really pushing with at the moment.
I find I need to layer my learning in order to achieve this.
I add bite size chunks, get them ingrained and then move on. So whether it's like what you mentioned with mapping the blue notes at the top end or figuring out transitional stuff in the middle, the only way I can do it is to do it a bit at a time.
Right now I'm on a lick learning frenzy! Just trying to build my arsenal up so I can incorporate them in to improvisations.
Once I 'map' these I know I'll need to tackle some of the more theory based stuff which provides the framework.
It all brings on the topic of muscle memory again.
At what point does your map become 2nd nature?
There are some really interesting studies on the nature of learning and how our minds become efficient at patterns of movement and behaviour after time and repetition.
In my line of work (sports) , when I start with a student they are often all over the place, physically, it takes a while for them to stop thinking and start doing.
The flow!
Last Edited by Ian on Dec 14, 2015 5:27 PM
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MindTheGap
869 posts
Dec 14, 2015
11:40 PM
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Good topic. I suspect we all develop our own mental maps of the instrument, and it can be both a help and a straightjacket.
I was fascinated/frustrated with the top octave 2nd position, and I'd mapped it out. But I had trouble finding anything I liked playing there. One breakthough was, as you mention, was twigging that with the IV chord you can effectively switch to 1st position and play nice properly bluesy phrases on the top end. Seems obvious now, and it's right there on my map, but it was only listening to players actually doing it opened the door - Sam Myers and Charlie Musselwhite, who do that often.
I'm now going through the same mental mapping exercise on chromatic. Surely that can't be the best layout for notes????!!!! But like the QUERTY keyboard, it just is. Like it or lump it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 14, 2015 11:42 PM
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MindTheGap
870 posts
Dec 14, 2015
11:56 PM
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...I wrote out diagram of the harp like you see in the books, with the bends on. But unlike the books who use note names C D E..., I used the scale degress 1st 2nd, minor 3rd, major 3rd... And I did that for I, IV and V chords. I found the scale degrees much more useful than note names for playing blues.
Originally I used it to decipher licks and whole songs but it's become my strong mental map.
But another view of the layout is scales. Lots of players use the major pentatonic scale as a backbone to move about and while I know it, it's a weak map in my mind. Good prompt to work on that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 14, 2015 11:57 PM
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Crawforde
21 posts
Dec 15, 2015
4:38 AM
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Thanks for starting and continuing this discussion guys!
A year ago most if would have been like a foreign language to me.
MTG. As far as I am concerned there is a better pattern than Solo for the Chromatic.
Bebop tuning.
Gnarly uses it and a few others have had long discussions about over at slidemeister if you want to go trolling for info from the learned ones.
Basically, you just take first C of each repeated pair of Cs (on a C harp) and retune it to a Bb. Take the first repeated tonic of each pair and retune it to the flat 7th.
Minor change, but it makes many songs and scales easier.
I have also found myself thinking in scale degrees lately, and I believe it has improved my musical knowledge and the ability to switch between harmonica types and tunings.
The whole position thing was always very confusing to me when I first started. Plus it didn't work well between diatonic and chromatic, and alternate tunings. I gave up and started just looking for scales, then the movement to scale degrees just seemed a better simplification.
I still do nor play well, but at least I know what I'm not playing well. And the journey is a lot of fun.
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SuperBee
3080 posts
Dec 15, 2015
5:08 AM
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i use positions and scale degrees...i relate positions to scales and then build chords from the scales..and of course when i build the chord i am thinking of the root, 3rd, 5th 7th, 9th...and whether those need to be major or minor
and relate this to the chords in the song...
and when it falls apart i think about pentatonic major ;0) and whether i can get away with another song that sounds like 'will the circle be unbroken'
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MindTheGap
876 posts
Dec 15, 2015
5:54 AM
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Superbee, yes I think that is 'the way' too. Actually playing the harp has put me more in touch with the raw sound of intervals and chords than other instruments I've played.
Crawforde - you're determined to get me to use bebop tuning! :) Well, now I do see the sense in it. It's not at all clear to me what the rationale is for the conventional solo tuning. I'll do some reading up.
I've resisted re-tunings on the diatonic. Partly a sort of purist stubbornness. Partly coz it's a lot of work. But if I have one or two chromatics, not so much work. That just leaves the stubbornness and I have quite a lot of that.
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Rontana
238 posts
Dec 15, 2015
6:30 AM
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A different take here. The crux of the discussion, I think, is this:
"I wonder if people who already have a mental model for another instrument are more adept at forming an analogue for harmonica, or any instrument really. Does it become easier to pick up another instrument when you have already developed your musical understanding of one instrument?"
I'd have to say yes, but only after restating the premise. I do think that playing one instrument allows a person to more easily adapt to other instruments. That said, I wouldn't necessarily call it a mental model involving music theory. It's the actual playing, the physical act and what sinks in at a subconscious level (at least for some) that makes other instruments come more naturally
I say that because if I even hear anything about music theory I completely shut down. It holds no interest for me, and I've quit teachers when they tried to force feed it. I played drums for 15 years or so, taught myself guitar and banjo by ear (and then taught myself to build guitars, dulcimers, psalterys, etc). Then, it was on to penny whistle and harmonica.
Through all this I couldn't tell you a single thing about music theory or reading music. Zero, zip, nada. On the other hand, the act of learning instruments taught me about time, rhythm, patterns, intervals and further developed my ear. Heck, if I had to study or learn music theory I'd quit playing entirely (and did when I was a kid . . . after years of being dragged to much hated piano lessons with countless teachers . . . yes . . . I'm sure there's a 50-year-old psychological component in here someplace).
So , I couldn't say, at least in my case, that the musical understanding of an instrument makes playing another instrument easier. However, the actual playing of an instrument sometimes accomplishes the same thing.
This may appear simplistic, but my approach is that if it sounds good, you play it. If it doesn't, you don't. Over time your ear and subconscious "learn" what will sound good before you hit the chord or note, but you never really think about it.
Just so no one misunderstands, I'm not saying one way is better or worse; it's really apples and oranges. People learn in different ways, and there's no "one size fits all"
Last Edited by Rontana on Dec 15, 2015 6:44 AM
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SuperBee
3083 posts
Dec 15, 2015
1:32 PM
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Sure, theory is not the process. It's an attempt to describe something with the aim of being able to replicate it or show it to someone else.
id tried to play harmonica for over 30 years before I heard the term 'chord tone'. I think I didn't know the difference between minor and major until 3 or 4 years ago...and it has made learning so much more understandable for me...I don't know how I went so long without understanding this at a basic level. I know there can be a lot of complexity but just learning the basic lingo and some common concepts has made it so much easier to communicate. For me it's an absolute joy...like a liberation..
But that's how my brain likes things
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MindTheGap
878 posts
Dec 15, 2015
11:21 PM
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On that particular point, I've learnt a few instruments some taught, some self-taught largely like the harp. My experience was that for classical instruments the focus was on being able to play notes from the written score. The 'theory' taught was a bit secondary and it's focus was around being able to read music. So yes, any cross-training with the harp from that is more about the practice than the theory. Rhythm, knowing a bit about keys and scales.
Starting the chromatic, now that does feel more like I've got a mini piano keyboard somewhere in there. I find I'm thinking more about note names, sharps and flats.
The idea of 'theory' vs 'by ear' or something like that often comes up in the other place. I'll point out that the 'theory' we are talking about here is pretty lightweight stuff. It's not about the rules of composing a four-part harmony, for example.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 15, 2015 11:23 PM
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SuperBee
3103 posts
Dec 19, 2015
3:26 PM
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I like what Ron said about coming from one instrument and finding the equivalent or harmonious patterns on the harp. I don't have that. I work from what I know on harmonica though, and try to find on other instruments.
Piano seems the most sensible model to use, to relate to. but understanding guitar or bass is very useful if one wants to pick up at a glance what is being played in an ensemble situation.
But really...the reason I need to know the theory and the conventional way to express it is so I can communicate about specific musical concepts, both explain my own and understand what others are telling me. Just understanding some basic stuff about scales and chords has made my time playing in ensembles much less confusing.
But...mental model...the knowledge...
My law tutor said something in class one day which stayed with me and I think relates here.
He said 'I don't want you to remember this stuff. I want you to know it. If you know it you don't have to remember'.
That's where I'm coming from in this thread. There are a couple of things I 'know' on the harp, but I want that to be a bigger story.
Here is one idea I am going to try over the next few weeks. In fact I'll commit right now to 3 weeks of 5 minutes a day on this.
This is from Dave Barrett's lesson 3 on accompaniment. I've done the lesson and taken the test, but I think I can do better.
The lesson is about 2nd position chord tones on the first 6 holes of the harp. I'd like to make it the entire harp but to do that I need a track with 10 choruses. I might create one. Or stick with the lower 6.
The exercise is an exercise in brainwashing, like learning times tables but with the harp in mouth.
With a jam track in appropriate key, start on hole 1 and play Charleston rhythm, using the available note which matches the chord. So hole 1 you would play the draw on the first 4 measures (5th of the I chord), blow on measures 5 and 6 (root of the IV chord) draw on measures 7 & 8 (5th of the I chord again) draw on measure 9 (root of the V chord), blow measure 10 (root of the IV chord), draw on measure 11 and 12 (5th of the I chord and root of the V chord on turnaround)
Then, second chorus move to the 2nd chamber and find the matching tones. Where there isn't one, move to the closest hole with that note.
Now, this is perhaps a dull exercise to play, but I think I can do it for 3 weeks once a day. The real crux is to be cognizant of what you're playing. So one must name the thing your doing at each step. Name the note, the chamber, blow or draw, the scale degree and the chord number...
At the moment, I can remember all that information but I'm not sure I know it in the way mr Hughes wanted me to know the 7 elements necessary to have a case of fraudulent misrepresentation.
If I can do this it will represent something of a breakthrough for me on several levels...
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