It has kind of bugged me that for years I didn't really do anything on the top end of the harp. I know lots of top pros have never really gone above the 6th hole. And they were awesome. But for me, I wanted to be a bit more versatile. Guys like Sugar Blue, Jason Ricci, Gussow and Parrott to name a few. All work the entire harp. So continue with what we started on the Resolution thread, here it'll be all about holes 6-10.
One of the things I mentioned as an exercise in getting more comfortable with the top end is duplicating some of my favorite licks done down below up top. For example... The standards of 1D 2B 3D 3D and the similar 1D 2B 3D 1B. Done up top they're 4D 5B 6B 6B & 4D 5B 6B 4B. Same notes but different breath pattern. Likewise the 8D 8B 9B 9B & 8D 8B 9B 7B. Whether or not I would swap out the upper end licks for the lower end ones would really depend on the particular song itsself. ie, Does it fit/sound good?
My main purpose of this is to open up my ears and mind to where these 4 notes are in reference to a known lick that is so embedded in my harp psyche. From that base, hopefully other possibilities will pop out in the heat of the moment. I hope that makes sense. It's sort of how my brain processes stuff. So with this sample exercise coupled with a grasp of the pentatonic scale, I should be good to go.
But enough about me. How about the rest of yous?
Note...see my post after Superbee's for low end livk correction. I'll leave this one as is to maintain the integrity of Bee's reply.
Edited for clarity. ----------
I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Dec 28, 2015 7:31 PM
Hi 2chops, thanks for starting the thread. i have a small problem with what you wrote above because your low octave lick uses 3 draw ... can we talk C harp...if i mention note names please assume i'm talking C harp... but yeah anyway...i assume you mean 3 blow or 2 draw rather than 3 draw.
i tried for a long time to get the hang of it with transposing licks to the top octave and i got somewhere with that...but i guess i just dont have many licks...and they lay out differently so while it helped me start to think about the layout it didnt help me play that much, i mean, playing scales was just as useful, but for variety and just familiarity, transposing licks was a good exercise...and also just getting a good sound out of those chambers...and moving between them...licks are good for that one second position thing that i did which i think has helped over time...is actually something i copied from Frank zappa..i dunno if you know 'advance romance but there is a line...'no more credit at the liquor store'. its a decending minor pentatonic scale. i play : octave (6blow) octave b7, 5, 4, R, b3, b3, R. so you can play that also from the 9 blow...but you need the 6OB to get the b3. never mind, but it was helpful as a scale exercise to get in my head wher that pentatonic minor lives on the top end...9 blow, 9 draw, 8 draw, 7 blow, 6 overblow 6 blow. bit sad about the overblow but you can do a fair bit without the flat 3rd...or jump down to 3 draw or use the 10''...so for starters i'll throw out exercises with the 2nd position pentatonic minor scale as helpful. and then, if you have scale based things you play, maybe transposing them is okay...
and of course, playing the major pentatonic, but i need a song other than will the circle be unbroken to play with that
most of the top end playing ive been doing is 1st position, but i'll talk about that later. think i better take my dog to the vet toda
Bee...good catch on the 3D. I'll leave the original post as is. What I meant was 1D 2B 2D 2D. The second low end lick would then be 1D 2 B 2D 1B. That's what happens when I type too fast on my phone while knocking back a cappuccino.
I'm interested in what MTG has to say about this. Most of my work has been on 1st position but MTG is a 3rd position fan and has made some study of playing 2nd on the top. MTG, you've cited Kim Wilson and Charlie Musselwhite as exemplars of top end 2nd. Can you point out a couple of examples for me to listen please? For me, the first challenge was to get the notes to sound. To that end I took to playing that part of the harp, tunes like turkey in the straw, Dixie, yellow rose of Texas, shaving cream, pack up your troubles, the love boat theme...anything that would take me there. But then, to get the bends...he 1st position blues...bright lights big city, honest I do, boogie on reggae woman and how long can a fool go wrong. Oh, and cocaine blues or cocaine habit In second position for the 10" I have tried to play tequila. The 10" is important and while I'm very happy with 8' and quite happy with 9' in most keys, and can use these bends for both the 'proper' missing note and to imply the note of the draw reed, subbing for the draw which is really necessary for a lot of the 1st position stuff at least...the 10" is still not quite where I would like it. But I continue to work on it. Re 1st position, I realised the 9 blow is the 5th, the equivalent of 4 draw in second, and started to transpose 2nd position licks learned on the lower end to 1st position played on the top. This helped. Example was to take some of the Jr wells stuff I like, his opening for please throw this poor dog a bone, and play it in first...ah, the lights come up! I havent been able to get much similar to happen with second though, thanks to lack of bending inflection opportunity. There's the 10" for the flat 3rd, which can be used resolving back to 9 blow, and the run from 9 blow to 9draw...I guess you could blow it really flat but I haven't really tried that re second...to 8 draw 5th...7blow 4th...then the 6ob if you can manage it reliably...I just about can on quite a few harps, and resolve on the 6blow or continue down through lower octave with maybe a surprise return to the 10".... But not a lot of opportunities for the inflections you can get in the draw notes of the lower end... However, playing second and travelling to the top for the IV chord allows you to play all the first position stuff and then you just have to extract yourself back to the appropriate scale for the rest of the song... I have some stunning examples of high end playing but I'm looking for some more 'everyday' use examples. So that's my project. Find a couple of examples, analyse and report back. I see this as a thread which could be kept happening for a while, no need to rush it. On the technique side...for me, getting hold of the bends and trying to get 7 blow to sound really good has been about playing those songs I mentioned. I think it really helped to play them with the context of timing and feel. 8' helps with the 6 OB too I think. If you need to feel a bit sick with awe, Kim Wilson plays some killer stuff on Tigerman. I believe the song is 'trust my baby'.
I'll echo this point (re 2nd position top end): while there are some examples of virtuoso playing, I was after some bread-and-butter moves that I could play right away. Something to play there comfortably rather than a 'look mum, no hands' moment.
Some examples you ask for - only thing is some of these are live versions and we may not be listening to the same thing, but hey...
Charlie Musselwhite Highway 51 (Live I think). One solo dances around the 9 and 10 bends on I and IV chords, all good, but has phrases that include 7D (that maj 3rd) as a passing note. It doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.
Or something different: CM's Blues Overtook Me: chordy-tongue-blocking-splappy splits with 8D 8B 9D as the top end. Those are the classic 'boogie' notes and IMO the TB/slaps make them sound good. Which for me helps deal with your observation that you can't bend those draw notes.
Kim Wilson's Lowdown splits on a phrase 8D 8B 7D 6B. At 1m20s used over the I chord, and later 2m45s used as flourish to signal the change to the IV chord.
For a great and really clear example of shifting up top for the IV chord to use those 1st position bendy licks, try Sam Myer's Young Fashioned Ways.
And I like Rod Piazza's Deep Fried, where he just hits a bendy, single note 9+ all the way from the V chord and right though the turnaround. More of a hi-energy move but I can do that!
I listened to a couple harp heavy records today and heard no second position high end playing...maybe it was there and I just didn't hear it...and actually I haven't listened to all of the Kim Wilson album yet...but I listened to all of jimmy rogers' blues blues blues and all I heard at the sharp end was taj mahal playing first pos. Tell you what though, Kim Wilson and Carey Bell hand out the lessons in how to play accompaniment on that record. I listened to CM's 'blues overtook me' and I think I picked up the section referred, would take me a while to work out exactly what's happening there...but I'll keep plugging away at it...it's good, forcing me to listen more carefully
There's not much of it about. Unless you listen to Sugar Blue when it's everywhere, but it's out of reach technically. Plus it has the worrying major-over-minor sound.
Here's something at least I can share from YouTube. A live version of CM's Highway 51 (not any of the versions I mentioned earlier).
At 2m0s it's the classic CM move I've taken on board - shameless blow bending at the top end with the bends substituting for draw notes over the I chord, and actually being the 'right' notes over the IV chord. With your 1st position skills this will be immediately accessible.
It's a peculiar sound really, very harpy, and I like it. I'd never had done it without hearing these examples. Coz they are the wrong notes!? But the right wrong notes.
So I guess with Sugar Blue it's the right, wrong notes too. But I like one and not the other.
I arrived at Lowdown because I had Wilson's 'that's life' in the player. So that is pretty cool very little Walter style number generally and right up the alley of the kind of stuff I would enjoy playing. I think he actually begins a chorus on the top end, which is something I like, so I will slip this into the slow down app so I can loop those sections. It's a good backing track for this exercise too, not too fast, easy to count.
Talk about your timing. I was just on Dave Barrett's site, Blues harmonica.com. His tip for today is about a simple way of becoming great on the top end.
Take your licks and songs that you play on the bottom octave and learn to play them in the upper octave.
Along with doing a scale or two, this is pretty much my line of thought and Way of doing it. ----------
I'm not qualified to advise on this, and that's not what this bit of the forum is about. But I do want to say what did and didn't work for me, in case it helps someone else.
I'd read, in a number of places, the advice to get stuck into the top end by transferring licks up there. I think that's how Adam starts things off too if I remember rightly. But it didn't unlock it for me. Yes, it gave a reason to go there and it's a good way to learn the note layout. But I didn't think it sounded great on the whole. And importantly I didn't find, for the most part, that is what people did in the recordings (live and studio) that I listened to.
I'm not saying don't do it, it probably is a good thing to do. But for me, it would be only part of the story.
Scales are always good though. On the piano, you learn scales partly because a lot of the music you play has bits of scale runs. So it's directly useful to practice on top of all the other good reasons.
Any of you guys have any good exercises for up there on the harp. Or Good songs that make good use of the upper octave.
I find things easier to learn when they re in a song u wanna learn.
The way i learned to nail all my 3 draw bends was chicken shack believe it or not. Lol. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
kHz - I've listed a few songs above. If you have a Charlie Musselwhite album it won't be long before you hear some top-octave work to copy. How about his 'River Hip Mama' which has both a great hook at the low end, and some top-octave moves too?
I'm mostly talking about 2nd position stuff. Of course if it's 1st position you are after then Jimmy Reed can be your template. Bright Lights, Big City?
I strongly agree about learning via a song you like. It's not just the pull of the song, but the treatment of the phrases.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 06, 2016 12:08 AM
here is a thought bubble about transposing a scale exercise to the high end. i keep referring to it as 'blues scale' but its actually just minor pentatonic. and i havent practiced the upper end stuff...obviously...but just seemed like an idea that may have application.
Fantastic, thank you! It is a nice scale run and a good example of the kind of the thing that IMO does work transcribing from the bottom to top end, in spite of the difficulties working round the minor/blue 3rd.
I like your solution of either dropping down for that bit, or going back up to the bent 10B. I can overblow the 6 on some harps but not others.
A different approach to what I'm doing for top-end playing is speed. And scale patterns like this are probably the way to get there. That's the Jason Ricci thing isn't it - lots of repetitive scale patterns than you can start slow and accelerate.
Great stuff.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 06, 2016 2:27 AM
Cheers. I was trying to find a way to put up a movie which didn't involve loading to YouTube but maybe I just need to plan the video a little more. I'm a little shy about having semi coherent video up in public but whatever. When I get 'lowdown' worked out I'll make another I guess. Could do some first position stuff but not sure if people are interested so much in that. I think it's easier to find and more obvious how it applies, and more about technical aspects of fluency with bending...
Thanks SBee... when you originally put the tabs up for that i liked the idea, but when i tried to do it the next day in the car i had trouble getin a flow goin. The second i actually heard u play it i picked the harp up and had it. I'm a by ear player for sure.
Im just starting to work with scales more. It was something i skipped initially.
1st position 3 rd position still a bit confusing to me. I mean i kno what it is just change what key your playing in, but what is the scale and what notes to use n all that. Confusing.
Mtg .. i got some charlie stuff. Not a huge fan tho too much like country. I love his harp work, but his voice kinds kills it sometimes.
Btw Bee that TB sound is great. I can't play TB runs for shit. One of my many things to work on. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 06, 2016 7:06 PM
Re 'semi-coherent' :) AKA not perfectly polished, you should know that is exactly why I gravitated towards Adam's videos and not towards David Barrett's (although I have most of his books and I like them a lot).
Adam's vids recorded in the car, with glitches and all, I can hear what's actually going on, and feel I have some chance of replicating it. Versus perfect studio recordings. Then I can listen to Adam's studio tracks and hear what it can sound like in it's polished form.
Take the overblows - everyone surely must have had the experience that they work ok on one harp, not another. As a learner, it's not much use hearing a demo track where they are perfect every time - that's not real life.
So I'd prefer it if you don't plan them any more that this one! :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 07, 2016 12:25 AM
I must admit one of my interests in playing the top end of the harp is not very inspiring. I figure I paid for the whole harp therefore I'm going to learn to play all the notes. ( though it's true I have limited interest in learning overblows, just the usual bends and what not) Usually I head for the song "Walters Boogie" that usually keeps me busy. Can't say I've done any transpositions from 2nd to 3rd positions, but I do try to figure out whatever I'm playing in all three octaves. Stated another way I practice my "walk downs" then "walk it up"...
Yes I know what you mean. For me it's partly 'because it's there'. Also some vague feeling that more serious harp players use the top end from time to time, while casual players stick to the low end. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 08, 2016 3:15 AM
I hear you. I paid for the top end lol I wanna use it.
Well actually i just wanna be able to have more notes to use. Learn how to play licks in different octaves. Learn all the different positions. 3rd position 1st position mainly. I dont know the scales or what notes to play. And when i dont know how to do something it haunts me. I cant let it go until i got it inside n out. But there is just so much to learn. One thing at a time.
I was on Skype yesterday with a guy named Ben Hewlett. He has a line of lesson books and downloads. Well I bought a Download book from him and didnt like it. He immediately refunded my money and we started emailing back and forth. He was trying to help me find a lesson that would suit my needs and where im at right now. Well we skyped last night, He was in Africa I think, He is from the UK. So it was like 5pm last night which was more like 10pm for him. I thought that was pretty cool of him. He said he has a new lesson coming out next week that teaches different positions. One lesson for each position as i understand it. And each lesson will teach you the scales and two songs in that position. He is going to email me when they come out and I'll let yall know where to find them if you want.
He played a few things on harp during our conversation. He also played a little bit with some low tuned harps he had. I immediately realized that this was how sonny boy was getting that sound on Bye Bye Birdie. This had bugged me for a while. But he also explained to me something that was obvious, but i never had thought about. he said that the upper end of the harp is much easier to play on a Low tuned harp. Interesting. Im not investing in a thunderbird, but i might buy a Low C to learn the upper end with. Seems like good way to start. obviously because the reeds are so much longer the bottom end is apparently harder to play, but the reeds on the upper end are about the same size as the bottom reeds on a normal harp. So it shouldn't be much of a leap except for the fact that your now blowing most of your bends.
Anyways thought it was useful Info. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
What were the low tuned harps? I reckon ther is a sweet spot in the range for harps. For me it's probably close to Bb. G harp through to Bb I'm happy with the draw bends. And the blow bends. Cotton used to play a C and blow bend...I mean a C in first position...and I've heard people go so far as the 10 blow bend on a D harp...don't hear too much higher than that, though I'm sure there are examples. When I was getting to think my A harp blow bends were OK, I started moving up the keys. I think it improved my facility in the lower keys. So I probably agree it's a reasonable idea to start with the relatively easy thing. But I dunno how easy it would be on a low c. I actually find blow bending a bit harder on the low Eb for instance, than on the Low F, and I am not sure about the Low F, whether it's easier than G. For me, I think the G is as good as it gets, but most 1st position blues recordings I know are in A. about reeds: the hohner 14 hole models in tenor tuning I think they call it, anyway, where the low octave is lower than a standard harp...those harps do in fact have longer reeds than a standard harp. The 11 chamber is I think very similar to 8 chamber on a 10-hole harp. But low tuned Seydel harps for instance, the reeds are the same length and width as any Seydel 10 hole diatonic. The attach weights to the free end of the reed to achieve the low note. This makes a very thick reed which is cool but also very susceptible to alignment problems. No drama but some consideration will preserve longevity. I've had several presented here with 1 hole problems and alignment has been the issue. Hohner thunderbirds are similar but the reed is in one piece, just milled with a long fat free end. I think they're not as fat as the Seydel though. Maybe they're more prone to cracking. I shouldn't speculate, I don't know. But I have repaired a couple of thunderbirds which needed new reeds in 1 draw. I almost never have to replace 1 draw reeds in harps higher than G, so maybe that says something about the physical limitations of the harmonica concept. I think the standard range is the best fit. The longer harps though, do have longer reeds. They are also susceptible to misalignment, for the same reason as it's easier to pot out a pool table than a full size table, but I suspect the low reeds are more durable that the low tuned 10 hole harps. If I was going to play a Low C, I'd opt for a longer harp. The hohner 365 SBS is a good concept but id recommend getting a custom setup. I believe the standard comb is not up to scratch. I don't know about the Seydel solist pro 12, but if they are available in low C could be worth checking out.
He had a Thurberbird and Prototype by Joe Falisko. It's not out yet. Its similar to his tbird design, but it has rolled out covers on the bottom end so no reed slap in the covers.
That's interesting about the thick ended reed weights. that makes sence. I wonder if you could just use the nailpolish trick on the End of the reeds to make a G go down further than Low F and into the low E range maybe. I suppose you would have to be pretty precise with the application. Our you could fine tune it by taking away from the rivet end once you got close.
Im Going to get a low harp. I just don't know what kind or what key. As you said, I've been reading that low c is a lil tough to play.
Manji makes low tuned for the same price as thier normal tuned. And i just got my one manji playing beautifully, so i wouldn't mine trying it.
My choices i think are down to Manji Seydel soloist 10 hole Soloist pro 12 hole Seydel session standard (i have a few session steels, there nice, but i wanna try one with brass reeds.) Lee Oskar (theyre alright with a lil work) Or the Marine Band 364
I feel like i would be comfortable with the MB because it's close to what i play most of. Marine bands.
But im really liking the manji now. And Rockin Rons has Manji 2 pack of low tuned with a nice clam shell case. So i could get a low C and low D. Or low F And Low D. Or low F and low C. Lol. Idk. I think i may go that route. Manji is Solid harp and apparently the combs in the 364 suck, The paint chips off n stuff. But i would like to try a 12 hole harp.
But part off my reason for buying a low is to see if it's easier to learn the upper end of the harp. So even though alow C maybe tough on the low end, i wonder if the high end is similar to a normal low end. But If the reeds are still short and just weighted it prolly won't be much different. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 09, 2016 7:22 AM
