MindTheGap
928 posts
Jan 03, 2016
11:48 PM
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Borrowing from kHz's post on Channel 1, I thought I'd start a thread about the problem of practising with volume, soundproofing and all that.
Whenever I've learnt an instrument, it's always been a concern. Two things, I don't want to annoy neighbours and don't really want other people to hear my repetitive practice. I don't think non-musicians necessarily appreciate how much repetition is normal/required.
So, your thoughts philosophical and practical?
I used to have an acoustic piano and a neighbour who would open her windows so she could hear me better, as she liked hearing me practice. That's a good situation and much better than soundproofing. Not the case now, sadly.
I've done some study in acoustics so I know that real soundproofing at home is effectively impossible. That doesn't stop me having a think about it from time to time. My conclusion with harmonica was that the best use of time/space/money was to (mostly) practise quietly at home, with occasional short bursts of loud at sociable times of day. Then sometimes use a rehearsal room to let rip.
It has influenced my playing style - I play on the gentle side which is actually great for playing amplified. But I struggle with the big acoustic sound, Sonny Terry or something. Probably has improved my cupping though.
I just did a quick ambient recording and my cup is far from a complete seal like others talk about, but it took approx 10dB off the signal. Sounds like a lot but, ears working like they do, it's far from silent.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 03, 2016 11:56 PM
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Ian
206 posts
Jan 04, 2016
6:09 AM
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My house isn't all that big, so spaces away from other are difficult to find.
I do have a couple of actual wood sheds but they aren't exactly a welcoming space.
So I have practiced quietly since I started, lots of tight cupping. Its actually why I got more interested in amplified playing so I could use a tight cup, earphones, and still get the impression of volume.
We are getting an extension done on the house this spring and I'm going to use some soundproofing measures in the new room (it's not a practice room), maybe some soundproof boarding, sealed door frame etc.
My wife is not a harp fan, no matter who's playing! So the goal has to be to keep the volume down.
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Rontana
252 posts
Jan 04, 2016
6:21 AM
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I currently live out in the country, surrounded by cornfields 30 miles east of the middle of nowhere. The upside is that you can play as loud as you want, and it bothers nobody but the cows and coyotes (well . . . and one of my dogs).
The downside is that you're surrounded by cornfields 30 miles east of the middle of nowhere (temporary situation while helping out with family health issues)
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Killa_Hertz
95 posts
Jan 04, 2016
9:46 AM
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MTGap ... That's actually one of my main reasons for wanting a "soundproof" space. Repetitive playing. I don't really like practicing while others can hear me because i know how it must sound. Lol. Same notes over n over. Like a kid practicing tuba for school band. I don't really play amped unless no one is home. But even the neighbors down the street can hear the vht rockin.
But im mainly still workin on my acoustic playing. We should invent an ikea type screw together cheapo sound booth. We de make a mint. It seems everyone wants one. Provided it works and is affordable.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Ian
207 posts
Jan 04, 2016
1:15 PM
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When I first started playing, before I knew ANYTHING , all I wanted to find was a silent electric harp. Something you could plug some headphones in to and wail away without disturbing anyone.
Now I know there are reasons why this would be hard to produce but surely not impossible? I'm guessing demand may not be high enough to warrant r and d.
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 04, 2016 1:15 PM
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Crawforde
33 posts
Jan 04, 2016
2:29 PM
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From the turboharp site.
No connection...
Never seen it before...
The SottoVoce (My Italian friend says it means, "In a soft voice,") is the answer to many a harmonica-family-member's prayers. Finally a quiet harp for practice... or the self conscious. The result of years of R&D.
Its italian: sotto, under + voce, voice. Pronounced st vch, stt vch
adv. & adj.
1. In soft tones, so as not to be overheard; in an undertone 2. Music In very soft tones. Used chiefly as a direction.
Features (Generation-1.1)
Reduces loudness by over 3dB (approximately half of normal harmonica.)
Earphones reproduces the sound remarkably loud in your ear... but no one elses. Without batteries... like an old fashioned gramophone, or hearing aid.
Perfect for practicing in noisy venues, like backstage at a rock concert, or airport, runway or while mowing th elawn, vacuuming the carpet... you get the idea.
Available in key of G only (because it is the least irritating key.)
Patent Pending
We're constantly working on improving the Sotto Voce. Version 2.0 will be even quieter. Stay tuned! But keep down the racket!
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Killa_Hertz
100 posts
Jan 04, 2016
4:06 PM
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Them cats at turboharp are crazy.
If you ve seen that then I'm sure u have seen their electric harp. It's pretty tight.
But there is an easier way to make an electric harp. A piezo element like $1. I got one n suck it to my cover plate.
Similar to the pickups on a guitar. Only problem is it picks up exactly what the harp is playing. Obviously. So to get that "Chicago" sound you have to create it without the use of a high z mic. Which is totally possible. But just not the traditional way things are done.
If you ve never done it, its worth messing with. Kinda cool. Play with different elements. Especially when their cheap.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Crawforde
35 posts
Jan 04, 2016
5:18 PM
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Cool
You are talking about the cheap stick on piezos ?
Have you tried One on each cover, Does it matter?
That would be cool, you could use different amps/ effects for inhale and exhale notes...
It might be pretty cool for Low low notes too...
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Ian
208 posts
Jan 04, 2016
5:27 PM
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I remember seeing that SottoVoce before. Its not a bad idea. Basically a tiny soundproof booth!
I want someone to put some money it to developing a full electric harp that doesn't use conventional reeds but instead some kind of pickup, so that from the outside it would just sound like you are heavy breathing! But.... With earphones or amped up.... Boom!
I can't even think how it could be done but then I'm no scientist /inventor.
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Crawforde
36 posts
Jan 04, 2016
6:06 PM
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I have a comb with no reed plates, I bet if I put covers on it and played it that it would be my wife and dog's favorite harmonica!
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Killa_Hertz
101 posts
Jan 04, 2016
6:53 PM
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I can't think how it could possibly be done that way. With nothing to make the sound.
You could make one with padded covers or something. People open everything up to make it louder. What if you closed it up to make it quieter. Padded the inside with a built in piezo inside the cover. Something like that might work.
Yes the cheap stick on piezos. I actually have a couple. The one i like the best is made for acoustic guitar. For plugging into your tuner.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004UJO41S/ref=pd_aw_vtph_267_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1N7K6H9QFC8A7GKJPS76
It has a clip and a 1/4" wire already hooked up. If i clip it on my middle finger when i hold the harp it sits flat against the back. It picks up all reeds evenly. It's cool to mess with.
They just don't really have any character i guess you would say. They transmit exactly what you play pretty much. Not like a dynamic element at all.
But i built a lil 1w pocket amp and i built in an overdrive unit and a delay. If i plug that thing into it i can fit mic and amp in my back pocket. Which is kinda cool.
Although if it were something i did alot it would be worth giving up another pocket for a better mic. Maybe one of those akai 8.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 04, 2016 6:55 PM
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SuperBee
3194 posts
Jan 04, 2016
7:48 PM
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I think I'm gonna get the smallest caravan I can find and park it in the driveway, and pad it with egg cartons. Then move the daughter out there and play harp in my house whenever I want.
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Killa_Hertz
102 posts
Jan 04, 2016
9:04 PM
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Hahaha! Nice.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
930 posts
Jan 04, 2016
11:19 PM
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Is there a technical solution? The sotto voce looks like a good idea, but -3dB isn't really very much. And if it's for practice, a key thing is using your hands to shape the sound, and this and all those muffler things stop you doing that.
As you say, people make a feature of a harp being loud. I think I've read the customising work tends to make it louder (embossing, making it less leaky etc), and that's seen as a good outcome. Is that right?
What about customising to make it quieter? For a long time I used a rubbishy Hohner Bluesband in A that I had used as a test-case for gapping, tuning etc. and it ended up playing fine, but quieter and softer than a 'quality' harp. I used it for standard practising for ages.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 04, 2016 11:19 PM
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MindTheGap
931 posts
Jan 05, 2016
1:18 AM
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I do like the caravan idea though. That's lateral thinking.
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Harmlessonica
174 posts
Jan 05, 2016
7:29 AM
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The turboharp ELX uses an optical pickup system that is fed to your amp. Since it doesn't use a microphone, it's also feedback free.
Though soundproofing a room would probably be cheaper...
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Ian
209 posts
Jan 05, 2016
7:32 AM
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My mother in law bought me a novelty harp at Christmas. Thats basically silent!
Speaking of silent harps...
I'm sure that there would be a way of converting the movement of air in to a digital signal. Maybe forgetting reeds altogether!
Imagine how cool it would be to be able to practice anywhere.
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MindTheGap
932 posts
Jan 05, 2016
7:49 AM
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Yamaha have all these silent technologies, silent brass, silent viola that kind of thing. But the method of sound production is traditional, so a bow on a string or a special mute that fits in a real trumpet.
If you didn't have the reeds, you wouldn't really be practising - you know, the feel of it, bends and so on. That turbo harp ELX is wild, but you still have reeds there so still have acoustic sound. I like reading about that R&D stuff but I'd never buy such a thing - for me the harp players stumbled across 'The Electric Sound' in the 1940s and 50s and that's the one. A happy accident.
I guess your electric guitar is the most satisfactory silent-practice instrument. My son has an electronic drum kit for home practice and they are pretty good now in terms of feel: mesh heads giving a similar feel to a real drum head.
When I was learning piano, the wisdom was even the weighted-key models weren't good enough to learn on properly, and even a cheaper-end real piano was preferable. These days, it would be a no-brainer to get an electronic piano. One of the reasons I stopped playing was that when my kids were little I lost my evening practice time - if they heard the piano they'd get out of bed and seek me out for games.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 05, 2016 8:16 AM
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MindTheGap
933 posts
Jan 05, 2016
8:00 AM
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Ian - was the present of a 'silent harp' an encouragement to practise more or less do you think? :)
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Ian
210 posts
Jan 05, 2016
8:56 AM
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Ha. Who knows... Its possibly the worst harp ever.
I know what you mean about the lack of reeds making practice somewhat moot.... But I'm sure there would be a way of replicating the feel of the resistance of the draw, blow and the bend.
Like i said... Not for me to invent. Maybe turboharp will step up....
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Killa_Hertz
110 posts
Jan 05, 2016
7:54 PM
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Well like i said. If you take acoustic guitar vs electric guitar, what's the difference? The acoustic has a resonant chamber in the body to amplify the strings with no power.
An electric harp could still have its "strings". Just get rid of the acoustic chamber. Make the covers in a way that is non acoustic. Design them to deaden the sound instead.
It doesnt have to be silent. Just far reduced from an open cover Ripping marine band.
Actually that could be the answer. Practice covers. Instead of making a whole new harp. Just bolt on closed covers padded inside Made for each model. You just swap your covers out when you wanna practice
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 05, 2016 7:57 PM
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MindTheGap
936 posts
Jan 05, 2016
11:51 PM
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I don't think the covers are analogous to the body of the guitar. I believe that it's your body that's providing the resonance for the harp - air columns, and cavities etc. like with your voice.
But I could imagine having something sound-absorbing on the inside might well quieten it down, even if the cover itself isn't vibrating the sound is reflecting around. You can experiment and let us know! :)
Nacoran has this idea of magnetic covers than can be removed/replaced in an instant. For EZ cleaning purposes for instance. But that would be perfect for this - just unclip your standard SP20 covers and clip on your 'Practice Covers' and practise all evening!
Because of this thread, I did try putting a cloth over the front of the harp while cupping (front = the bit facing the audience) and it didn't reduce the volume over a tight cup on its own, which might set expectations. Trouble is with soundproofing is that you are scuppered by the smallest leakages. I.e. when you play, some of the sound is coming out of your nose.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 05, 2016 11:58 PM
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Harmlessonica
175 posts
Jan 06, 2016
3:15 AM
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If you're trying to deaden sound completely in that manner, the next problem you'd face would be moisture build up.
I seem to recall some mention of a harmonica muffler somewhere. Like a tube sock for your harp, don't know how well they worked though.
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Fil
91 posts
Jan 06, 2016
1:02 PM
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Some time back I got a suggestion to use a coffee cup, in the absence of a mic, to practice cupping. I recalled that it muted the sound somewhat. So, I got a smallish plain old cup from the cupboard and tried it. With a tight cup it muted the sound noticeably. I then taped some thin foam backed (1/16" or so) shelf liner lurking in the basement around it and tried again. Noticeably more muted. Not silent by any means, but quieter, and the tighter my cup, the more muted. FWIW.
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Phil Pennington
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