As I write this, I'm thinking primarily of asking this of SuperBee but of course anyone is welcome to reply!
This forum is full of discussion about the differences between makes, models and customisations of harmonicas.
If you take two different electric guitars - that are meant to be different I mean, not copies - then anyone can hear real, simple differences between them. E.g. single coil vs humbucker: they are supposed to sound different after all.
Then take two properly adjusted harmonicas with the same tuning and temperament. Can you honestly, honestly, honestly say they sound very different? Are they even supposed to sound different? Is there a single target sound for harmonica?
I expect my audience (the cat, my family, my band, my adoring public) could hear the difference between my SP20 and my Lee Oskar if I forced them to sit on a sofa to listen A/B over and over. Is it a meaningful musical difference?
I take the two harps and play them with slightly different hand cup shape. Would not that totally trump any difference in timbre between them?
Discuss :)
As normal, no criticism express or implied. I want to hear about what's important to you.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 13, 2016 2:56 AM
yeah i dont think you can hear much through a mic, amp etc. its been said many times that its probably only the player that hears the difference. but the player matters
To me there is another factor, possibly more important than sound, especially if sound difference between the models is slight or subjective. How the harmonica feels in my hands and on my mouth are a big factor for me. Many sound similar, at least to my ears, but feel more or less comfortable in the hand or on the mouth. Part of the search is probably a compromise between sound to the audience, and player as well as the feel to the player. Aesthetics is also important. to me it's about feeling good, having fun, and trying to sound good.
Yes I agree with you Crawforde on that. I think it would be interesting though if different harps did sound different. Imagine a world where you chose a different comb to make it sound this way or that, rather just to play better (more airtight or whatever it offers).
I guess it is probably custom tunings or temperaments that do that. Still, the audience probably won't notice.
I've not tried a seydel I wonder what that's like.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 13, 2016 5:50 AM
I totally agree with you mtg, there is only the slightest of differences between the sound of a harp for the listener, and yes it would be fantastic if you could buy harps with markedly different sounds (other than tuning). Maybe that's why people get so in to amplification. I guess that the only way harps would sound truly different would be if you drastically altered the casing of the harp, thereby superseding what you could do with your hands etc. The suzuki pipe humming comes to mind as a harp with less than traditional casing that, I assume, greatly effects the sound.
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 13, 2016 8:28 AM
It would be cool if harps could be made to sound wildly diverse, but my guess is that the fundamental design prevents any radical difference. Does a wood comb sound different from brass? Yup . . . to me. Do stainless steel reeds sound different than brass or phosphor bronze? To some people. You just don't have a lot of area or materials that can be greatly modified to affect tone and timbre
The difference with a guitar (I'm a shade-tree luthier . . . an am talking strictly acoustic here) is that different species of woods can produce amazing differences in tone/timbre. These days you most often see some form of spruce or cedar for tops, mahogany or maple for sides, and rosewood for fingerboards.
But, there's a lot of monkey see/monkey do involved with that (for commercial reasons . . . things set up and promoted by the manufacturers). Birch was at one time the preferred top material, and tops are also braced in various ways that affect sound. You can even have different tones from two different pieces of wood in the same species (there's an entire science - or pseudo-science depending on which luthier you ask - devoted to this; it's known as "tap tuning" . . . basically knocking on the wood and listening to it before deciding if it will make a good geetar). Lets not even get into resonators or steel/aluminum bodies.
The best tops I've ever made . . . and by that I mean thinning pieces down from an inch thick to around 1/8 inch, were from some pieces of pine lumber I picked up at lowes and made into an extra-deep-body mandocello (here's a video of that instrument . . . me doing some noodling)
And then you get into body depth, sound-hole shape and diameter, scale length, neck angle . . . and on and on and on.
The point being, there are many things you can alter on a guitar (or mando, or whatever) that can make it sound unlike any other instrument. With harmonica, due to size and design constraints, and some pretty exacting tolerances, I would think not so much.
Then again, I'm not a harmonica designer and could be all wet. After seeing some of the stuff Brendan Power comes up with, maybe anything is possible
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 13, 2016 9:33 AM
I disagree. I think the MB sounds much different from say the session steel. Of course there are many factors. The tuning first off. I know the question was if they were tuned the same. But each company has its own tuning style. I think that's the biggest difference, tuning. But the session steel is Alzo much more quiet and mellow. The reed material probably plays a huge role in this. But people look for that MB sound because it's so distinct from other harps. I think the manji also had its own thing goin on. However it also is not only tuned different, but has bronze reeds. So the "all things being equal" senerio is kind of impossible.
And the comb material also makes a harp sound much different. Brass combs for instance are very bright and have a very distinct sound which i can't really come up with a good discription for, but you just have to hear it for yourself. Aluminum is also brighter than wood. Andrew Zajacs combs are a compressed resin like material and sound very good, hard to describe kindof a darker warmer sound. Absorbs a bit of the highs. Unlike the brass and aluminium that seem to amplify them. Acrylic also sounds a bit different. Even different styles of wood make a slight difference when compared to eachother. The recessed comb designs sound a bit hollow and the reeds seem to resonate for a second inside once you stop playing.
I also disagree that amped they all sound the same. While i don't particularly like the session steel acoustically, it sounds great amped. When you amp that mellow acoustic tone it comes out very even and warm on the tube amp. Where as the MB tends to be more muddled when the amp breaks up because it's so raspy.
I agree that all of this is no doubt more evident to the player. And if you don't A/B them. anyone listening that didn't know what they were listening for wouldn't know the difference. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
"I agree that all of this is no doubt more evident to the player. And if you don't A/B them. anyone listening that didn't know what they were listening for wouldn't know the difference."
There are lots of instruments that offer similar variations in character to the listener , as in, very little. I guess it's just part of what makes it interesting to us, the player.
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 13, 2016 10:45 AM
See my post on customising a cheap harp thread formy story on reed material. Should add the customer couldnt tell either. And i have used lee oskar reeds to replace reeds in hohner 365. Id be amazed if anyone could tell the reed in slot 11 is different...actually replace both reeds in the chamber, and its a wailing note that bends, so not an obscure seldom used place. My point about the amp is that it adds far more difference than the harp type. I bought a seydel 1847 because the sound i kept hearing from jimi lee when he was playing live in our skype calls was so distinctive. Turned out that most of that tone was him, but they do have a distinctive sound. I do not attributr it to thd reeds though. Except in a indirect way. I believe seydel sound the way they do because thicker reed plates = louder (also more stress on reed, shorter reed life, but seydel steel reeds more robust), bigger format, larger space under covers, non vented covers. Ive heard jamie symons (seydel endorsed player) and same distinctive seydel sound. But through an amp? Of course therel be a difference all else being equal, but there is so much else feeding in.
Lookit this way...i have two marine band harps. Couldnt be more different if they were different brands. Both corian combs, same key of G. One built by joe spiers, one by mark prados. I can instantly tell the difference. Thats not down to covers, reed material...i do think reed material is a furphy...just tuning. If you can play nicely...is a much bigger factor
As i said in the other post i think you have a point. It would be much easier to tell, say if hohner made a steel reed model. This is why i wanted a session standard. So i could A,B the two same harps with different reeds. Sessions steel vs session standard.
But anyways you have a point. When we are talking different reed material we are also talking different harps from different companies. So the entire design is usually different. Reed plate thickness, cover size and shape, comb material, comb type (recessed, or non), comb tine design ( some have tapered chambers), and most importantly tuning.
Still wierd that. .. Sp20 MB and Lee Oskars all seem easier to bend and more easily playable than harps with other reed materials. Anyone else find this to be true? ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Just a lil' HaHa HooHoo on the 3/4 - 4/5!
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 13, 2016 8:21 PM
Yeah I've seen that said, or similiar, that Sp20 are popular because easy to bend. Usually that add this is because thin reeds and so downside is less durable. Of course LO have this great rep for durability so that one doesn't scan so well. I usually say LO last a long time because leaky, but I'm just stirring. I don't find the steel harps are harder to bend though and like I said, I couldn't pick the brass reed in that otherwise steel harp. Session v session steel though may be your best comparison. I've had both, but I think the session is a poor excuse for a harp anyway and I never did an a:b. My brass session was LoF and I restored it and sold it. The session comb is just junk if you ask me...and they vary from unit to unit. I haven't measured a LO reed plate thickness. I'll do so if I remember. There is so much goes into whether a harp has easy bends or not...I think reed setup is the biggest factor, personally.
