Ian
234 posts
Jan 16, 2016
8:58 AM
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I don't overblow much, if at all really.
The only overblow I use is the 6.
My problem /question is that I can't seem to figure out the magic setup for the reed to make them pop more easily.
This is only coming to light as some of my harps overblow easily, like really easily, but some not so much, and I've been practicing Gussows transcription of St Louis blues (which needs the 6ob).
The ones that overblow easily... I can't tell you what I did, if anything, to make them work (my crossovers worked ootb).
I have a manji in A thats being particularly awkward.
I know the gap is supposed to be tight, but what else?
Thanks!
Last Edited by Ian on Jan 16, 2016 9:00 AM
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SuperBee
3239 posts
Jan 16, 2016
12:57 PM
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I have a lot to learn about it Ian, but I can usually get the 6 to work quite well. Sometimes I can get 7 overdraw, I think I just don't have the knack of overdraw so hard to set up...
But overblow setup..,
Seems to me it's got to be a bit tighter on the blow reed. The first thing which has to be managed is to get the blow reed to stall. You need the harp to still be playable so don't close it all the way, although as a place to start with set up you could actually approach it that way. That is, set the blow too tight to play. Can you get the overblow? If not, bring your draw reed in by degrees until you can. This should be easy because it would be like putting a finger over the blow slot! Then gradually open up the blow reed until the overblow stops being easy...at that point you've gone to far so bring it in a touch.
Of course, as your technique improves you'll be able to do more with less, so it's all relative but maybe that's a way to come at it.
Good reed shape helps. There is a lot of info on that already so I shan't go into it unless you really want me to. Basically I think I only know the common wisdom but what I do know, I have proven to myself many many times.
I have a couple of Spiers stage 2 harps. These are setup to be 'overblow harps' on 4, 5, and 6. I can see Joe does have a special process for these reeds but I can't really say what it is. I think it's smart and probably allows him to do the setup very efficiently.
If you really want to get into it, I think that for overblows it helps to lower the reed near the root, but that depends on what your starting with of course. It also helps to have a tight slot so that the air will find less resistance in exiting from the draw reed slot than the blow reed, and activate the draw reed on it's way out...so it's all about tolerances and relative ease of activation.
I realise I understand what I'm on about, but not sure if I'm communicating coherently. Feel free to ask me to attempt to clarify.
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Killa_Hertz
263 posts
Jan 16, 2016
3:32 PM
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Im going to link this thread and a thread im about to start together kinda.
I just started Really exploring blow bends. I mean i have done them before, but not really gave it much effort or practice.
Now when looking for specific blow bend
( or even just any blow bend) I am sometimes over blowing. You can tell the difference because of the shrill sound. Now the question(s) is/are.
.....
Is this something everyone had trouble with?
How does the mouth shape, tongue shape, technique differ from one to the other?
Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but i don't know what. I haven't really explored this much online yet which is something i usually do before asking anyone, but yall where already on the topic.
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......." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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Ian
235 posts
Jan 16, 2016
4:39 PM
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Thanks superbee.
Yeah my gaps pretty darn tight on that harp, maybe tighter than some of the harps that Overblow more easily. I'm guessing it may be down to reed shape?
But.... The reed goes through all at the same time, it plays cleanly. Just struggles to Overblow.
I can Overblow the 6 on all of my marine bands in c, d, a and g, and on the manji in c, Bb, G, just can't get this A to work.
I read somewhere about the how the gapping of the draw reed will affect it?
@kh. Blow bends are different ballgame all together.
Once you get it its pretty straightforward, in fact you are probably over thinking it.
When I blow notes on the upper octave my tongue is quite far away from my teeth, when I blow bend my tongue moves to just behind my lower front teeth. If you play with the sweet spot you can hear the bend engage. Its a much smaller movement than draw bends (think small reeds, small movements).
For overblows (for me at least) , the technique is a little similar only there is more constriction in the mouth further back. So maybe you are tightening up too much?
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SuperBee
3241 posts
Jan 16, 2016
4:50 PM
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When you say you are overblowing when going for a blow bend, do you mean like you are blow bending hole 8 and you get a shrill sound?
If so
That's not an overblow. That's just a bad sound.
So your blowing, and the blow reed is doing its thing, and then you try to make the bend...so what happens is the draw reed starts to get in the action. It's actually similar to what happens with an overblow but the relationship of the reeds is different...so the draw reed is playing in this backwards kind of way which is delivering a note higher than it would normally play. Let's say we are talking hole 8 on a C harp...the blow note is E...you start to bend it and its operating the same way it is designed to work, with a closing action, and you can bend it a bit flatter than the normal note...but because of the forces involved the draw reed also gets s bit excited and when it gets agitated enough it also starts to chop up some air coming through its slot.. But it is working in reverse to the way it's designed to do, it's playing with an opening action relative to the airflow, so instead of the D note it is actually giving out a note a bit taller than that...and the more involved it gets the bigger the contribution...
That's just normal blow bending, and if you do it too heavy handed with of those reeds can squawk, just like an overblow which is also where you get the 'wrong' reed to play in reverse but you totally choke the 'right' reed and the wrong reed is already higher pitched than the right reed so the note you hear is higher than either reed in the hole.. So it's actually a very similar process but just a function of which reed you are making play backwards...and control.
AnywY, just semantics really, what you call it, but sounds to me that what you have is just what would commonly be politely called 'developing blow bending skills'.
Unless I'm misreading what's happening.
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Killa_Hertz
270 posts
Jan 16, 2016
4:55 PM
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Ahh ... i knew it was s different deal all together.
But i was doing like a draw 2 bend, like a harder bend mouth shape. It's more like a draw 5 bend.
Thanks that helped alot actually.
Oh and BTW I always over think it. It's kinda my thing. Lol.
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......." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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SuperBee
3242 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:04 PM
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Oh yeah..so read the question again and forget the semantics...what Ian said I agree with...the movement is really fairly small so it's just a matter of familiarity...repetition and eventually you start to get it right more often than wrong and then it comes together fairly quickly. I think I said before, I find the super low harps are pretty hard to blow bend on, for me a G is about the easiest but LoF is ok. The Lo Eb is just a bit more outside my range but I can do it ok with s little practice to adapt. To my mind those Lo harps are pretty useless from Eb down but that's me..I have use for an F and maybe an E. If I had a Lo C I'd get one of the long hohners like sonny boy used. I did some work on a 365 SBS, the one I put Lee Oskar reeds in...that was sweet but they need a good comb to play well I think.
Yeah, I know it's trite but 'just keep at it, you'll get it.' One day you'll be struggling and the next you'll just be able to do it and it'll be like what happened. Hard to say when that day will be, but it'll come sooner if you do a little work on it every day. Not too much. You got a song? I recommend bright lights big city, or honest I do. The jimmy reed originals. One lick at time, slow. Maybe one note and then add notes as you work em out. But licks is pretty good.
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Killa_Hertz
271 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:05 PM
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Its still a lil tough. I keep hittin that 8 OB when goin for the bend.
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......." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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Ian
236 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:05 PM
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So if we go back to the Overblow setup...
How does the draw reed position affect the overblow? I assume to get it to action it needs to be in the right position?
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SuperBee
3243 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:17 PM
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Oh yeah, Ian, your thread hey. Sorry.
Manji reeds huh?
Yep, I just dunno. I have a fairly strong contempt for Suzuki reeds and have been disinclined to get involved with them. I'm just about to start seriously working on getting my rubbish promasters in order so I expect I'll come to know a bit more from that process. But hohner reeds are my thing at the moment. Suzuki just annoy me with the spot welded thing, and no spare reeds. If you mess the reed up its a pain in the butt to replace it. If you even can get one with which to replace it.
It's gonna be all about the action and reed shape though. I'd still start from pov of getting the blow reed shut down. Even if I taped it shut. And making sure I could get the overblow easily like that. So work on the draw reed first. Just a thought bubble here. But that's what I would try.
I dunno if Jason Ricci might have a video on Manji setup? He seems to be a dedicated advocate for them currently.
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SuperBee
3244 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:19 PM
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What's the root end look like? Is it set close, compared to a harp that overblows well for you?
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Killa_Hertz
272 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:23 PM
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Yea i just tried it on the reg C. I dunno how anybody can play up there is so high. It just doesn't sound good to me. Maybe that's why i was inspired with the low c. Because the upper keys actually sound good.
But thanks I'll check then licks out. Licks are the only way to really learn something well, in my opinion. They make you play the note that's needed.
Do yall play the upper end of any of the higher keys? And if so do you blow bend up there?
Sorry to hijack the thread for a min.
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......." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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SuperBee
3246 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:39 PM
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I can blow bend the 10" on a D, but can't really get the 10'.
Cotton plays a C in first quite a bit, and I wouldn't have bothered with D except I heard it used...usually not much, maybe in 2nd and just a quick excursion to the 10" for the flat 3rd released back to the 9 or so..D is pretty attention-seeking harp to play much high on...I saw Cotton last year and he nearly burst my eardrums with his high end playing, which pretty much dominated his set. I loved it tho...
When you get the hang of it though...I mean really get the hang of it so it's not something you're wondering about whether it's gonna be ok, you just know you play it and it bends the amount you want...on a G harp or A harp or whatever...just try the next one up. And pretty soon you'll be able to do that too...so try the next one. Until you are satisfied. They're all possible, just a matter of working until you have the fundamental and then use that to get the next skill.
I don't want to come off sounding like been there done that...I'm still working on it but I have got some of it down solid. And that's where I think the progress comes from. Decide what you want and chase it one piece at s time. Often I jump around and don't properly learn anything and end up with lots of things I can't really do
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Ian
237 posts
Jan 16, 2016
5:51 PM
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Thanks superbee, ill have look at the root of the reed later, see how it compares.
I'll try the tape thing too, so I can make adjustments of the draw reed without interference from the blow reed.... Thats a really good Idea.
Thanks.. Ill update the thread when I either get it sorted.... Or.... Throw the harp in to the sea. ;)
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Killa_Hertz
275 posts
Jan 16, 2016
7:23 PM
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Ian getting the root down is all part of getting it to close at the same time.
Try the tweezer meathod. It works for me.
S.Bee Thanks for the advice bro. And u didn't come off sounding like anything. All the yappin i do on here I'm always glad when someone else has somethin to say.
I guess your right its just like anything else. I have only been "actually trying" to learn it for a couple days. I was just wondering as i think i have kinda blocked out all the info on the upper end and blow bends so far.
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......." Where Does He Get Those Wonderful Toys?" .......
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Ian
238 posts
Jan 17, 2016
8:59 AM
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Right... Update.
I couldn't really see what the magic secret was when looking at my other harps, so I went on a trial and error mission.
These are my findings!
The blow reed was indeed set right up close, very little gap. Infinitesimal in fact.
I tried like that but the overblow was just refusing to pop out.
So next was the focus on the draw reed.
I tried to tape the blow shut but all this did was make overblows so easy that I couldn't really decide what worked and what didn't. So the tape came off.
I looked at the arc of the draw reed and it seemed fine, it was clearing the slot all at the same time. The manji reeds base is very tight as they are spot welded.
I then tried to open the gap a bit. This started to make the overblow come a bit, not consistently, but come nonetheless.
So then I tried a few different shapes for the reed until I hit upon what works for this harp.
The winning formula for my manji in A is.....
Very tightly gapped blow reed, standard 'good' arc.
Draw reed fairly open at the tip, bending relatively sharply up, then quickly dropping in to a flatter (more conventional) curve along the length of it.
The overblow is coming in really easily now.
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