MindTheGap
1022 posts
Jan 25, 2016
1:03 AM
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Since you ask Ian :) - and picking up kHZ's comment about the Manji - just one of the aspects of the Lee Oskar I like is that OOTB they are gapped a little wide for me, and I have to hit them in a bit more determined way. This is good for me personally, as otherwise I tend to play with a slightly softer sound that I would prefer not to.
I have one harp from Ben Hewlett's shop - the Sonny Boy's Mojo which is like that too, but a bit more so. It needs some attack to get the notes to sound, but when they do they are loud and raucous. That's good for me too. I've not tried a Manji, but from the people's descriptions, I think I'd be expecting that kind of thing. Maybe I don't know what 'leaky' actually is - but I can say this feel is quite different to a cheapo harp, that does seem to fit that description.
I don't think the OOTB Lee Oskar plays 'as well' as my nicely adjusted SP20s. They do play with a light touch. But some of the SP20s were practically unplayable OOTB - one hole or another with a crazy gap. "Beginners always blame the harp"? Oh really? It was like some prank played on us.
LO's are much cheaper (at least in the UK), boast replaceable reed plates and have nice interlocking boxes that look as they have been designed with some practical thought in mind. Unlike the cheap-as-can-be SP20 boxes.
Partly my liking for them is both bloody minded and cultural. With LOs there's just one model, whereas the other manufacturers want to put you on a consumer conveyor belt of dissatisfaction. Just pay a bit more and get the better one, then then better one after that, and what about this new model - the with or without side vents. Classic marketing - gotta collect them all!
LO's aren't great if you have a long moustache, I've read that, but I don't have one of those.
As for the temperament. Here's a bit of heresy for you. There's a lot said about temperaments, and indeed my Mojo harp with its Just Intonation has clearly smoother chords, it's easy to hear. But much of the blues harp playing I hear and like people are clearly flattening the notes - that's what harps do. Sometimes they are flattening them A LOT and I would suggest that blows out of the water the few cents of fine tuning between different temperaments. Go on, shoot me down in flames.
Point is, as a player you are in dynamic control of the pitch - just like lots of other instruments. Particularly in the blues style, the pitch is far from a static thing. Players I particular like e.g. Ronnie Shellist is a prime example - his pitches are on the move all the time in the most musical way.
EDIT: I've just read this over and it's reads like an angry rant. Actually it's supposed to be a jaunty rant, so I've not hit the spot there :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2016 1:10 AM
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SuperBee
3289 posts
Jan 25, 2016
3:21 AM
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i didn't get much anger from it...maybe when you started to lose you temperament...
one of the things i dislike about them is the spare reedplate thing. what do you do with your old reed plates? well, you could maybe repair them when you collected a few...but youd have to know how to replace single reeds...and if you could replace single reeds then why would you want to buy replacement reedplates...so since you cant replace single reeds, which is why you go for the new reedplates...what do you do with the old reedplates?
for me, thats not a solution. its a solution which leaves me with a problem. so thats one reason i dont have lee oskars. although i have a few broken LO now, and some old reedplates...but thats another story.
i'm not sure how much they cost here. historically they were priced about $5 more than the 'standard' hohner range...sp20, BH, MB. i tried one, wasnt especially taken with it...played it until the 4 draw went flat, then put it away.
i do have a moustache...so another reason i'm not that keen to go there.
and i'm extremely satisfied with marine band and sp20...since about 2011 i made a decision to play crossover. i'd tried most harps i was interested in and shelled out for 4 crossovers...was very happy with them and since then just learned a lot more about working on them and repairing them and i'm very satisfied. because i take in repairs i get to try quite a few different harps and i'm yet to see anything that makes me feel i'm missing out. i'm yet to find any harp as good as the spiers stage 2 marine bands i have...
but, lee oskar have been a steady thing for a longtime. back when the hohners were so bad, LO was a viable alternative and won a lot of fans. still plenty of fans around here.
i'd probably have a set ET for playing horn parts..if that was something i was likely to do...Jr wells played them through the last part of his career...i dont think he ever went back...
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Ian
245 posts
Jan 25, 2016
3:47 AM
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I played a LO fro the first month or so of learning, mostly when I was working abroad. And I did enjoy using it, although coming back to it id say I prefer other models.
I definitely agree with you re the boxes. They are a clever design.
I also agree with you re the limited range, just different keys and tunings but that it... No 'gold super deluxe version', it's refreshing.
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MindTheGap
1027 posts
Jan 25, 2016
4:24 AM
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I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Just think someone ought to point out the alternatives. Actually I quite like it that no one else likes them. You know, 'Nothing is any good if everyone else likes it'. :) I saw that on Roy's t-shirt from The IT Crowd (UK comedy).
I can be the wild-eyed man enthusing about these harps to a sceptical crowd. Can't have a long straggly beard though, for obvious reasons.
Really I should prove how good they are by wowing the crowd with some playing, but ahem.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2016 4:41 AM
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Killa_Hertz
341 posts
Jan 25, 2016
9:27 AM
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Idk bud i think your on your own on that one. Maybe if you emboss the holy hell out of em. But the reeds, i find, are tough to work with. The covers are thin and it just feels like a toy in my hand. I mean if you can play em and prefer em, who the heck am I to say different.
But they suck.... 8^x> ... just kidding ... do you man.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1031 posts
Jan 25, 2016
10:25 AM
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I will wait patiently :) I want a Lee Oskar T-Shirt now.
A friend plays his Danneckers with their metal combs, and they feel really solid in the hand. Like a real quality thing should. I agree that's an attractive feature. My Sonny Boy's Mojo is like that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2016 10:29 AM
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Killa_Hertz
343 posts
Jan 25, 2016
12:16 PM
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I asked a question about Danneckers the other day. Having heard alot about them, but never having played, heard played or so much as seen one in real life, i was curious if they are all their cracked up to be. Whats your full impression MTG. How do they sound? Have you got to play one?
Hah MTGap .... idk why this popped into my head. Remember the song " I Want My Mtv"? .... Your quote should read. I want my MTG. Lol ... idk Where that came from, but i found it funny.
Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1034 posts
Jan 25, 2016
1:24 PM
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Re Dannecker, I've not played it myself. It's a shame about harmonicas, you can just share stuff like you can with guitars, keyboards etc. But there you are.
All I can say is my friend really likes them. I guess they would be akin to a custom harp, or maybe they are actually custom harps. When I was trying out harpmasters, he like the sound and bought some himself but thought they were broken, as some of the holes wouldn't sound. He was put off by the idea that they weren't set up right OOTB, and I can understand that.
I was nearly tempted when he had a sale on a while ago, but head won out over heart.
MTV - yes I remember it well. Thanks, it'll be running round my head now :)
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mtg - Got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveryeeee...eee.
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Halffast
15 posts
Jan 25, 2016
1:46 PM
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I LIKE my Lee Oskars . A bit easier for ME to play than my Special 20s . A dollar cheaper on ebay . I can get replacement reeds for $19 , a comb is < $5 , cover plates about that too . Reeds for a special 20 are about the same price as a new harp , if you can even find them . Sound pretty darn close to me ( but these ears have been through a lifetime of shooting guns , racing cars and motocross , and 30 years of working in a steel mill ) .
I like that the LOs are cheaply " rebuildable " . I've only replaced reeds on one of them that I bought as a " new " display model , that came with a broken reed . I'll admit that I do have to fiddle with them a tiny bit more than my SP20s but it is easily done and not a big deal to get them sounding like I want . My only real complaint is the moustache grabbing cover plate . A true professional from my area ( who will use ONLY LOs by the way ) says he uses a dab of epoxy on that left corner of the top cover , sands it smooth , then harps on and never looks back .
So MTG , count me in .
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SuperBee
3293 posts
Jan 25, 2016
3:12 PM
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Actually MTG, your point about ET and the susceptibility of harp tuning to alteration from embouchure...I think is a good point. I'm not quite sure whether embouchure becomes less variable among more experienced players, or maybe when harps play easily the differences in embouchure are less pronounced when playing reeds without particular emphasis...but many people are very particular about tuning. And many aren't.
I think it's probably a much bigger deal when playing multiple reeds simultaneously. But I also think a player should learn to tune for themselves. Having someone else tune your harps seems silly if embouchure is so important.
And...just as you remark about temperament...this thing about timbral differences between common reed material and attributing it to the material, even down to different alloys of brass...to the point that people say hohner's yellow brass reeds sound differently to red metal reeds...because of the brass...I can't buy it. I can't be sure those reeds do actually sound differently, but in any case I believe they are also made differently in terms of the stiffness along the length of the reed. Likewise, while I haven't seen many prewar reeds, those I have are clearly produced by a different process than today.
Oh, but what I was going to say...the changes to timbre caused by embossing are clearly detectable, and it seems a kind of equivalent situation...someone seeks out yellow brass reeds for their timbral quality and then embosses the slots thereby completely changing it.
I accept I don't have the most sensitive ear...but I can hear a metal comb compared to a plastic/wood comb. Not sure I can pick plastic from wood from resin though. Likewise reed material...though some may simply say 'it does' I'm unconvinced the material is the determining factor...
Maybe it comes down to perception. If you think you can hear it, then you can so it makes a difference to you and that's enough reason to attend to it.
Long ago I raised a question on a thread about tuning, proposing that logically following all the info presented by the experts, it was absurd to tune a harp for someone else to use. That thread died right there. The thought that there is so much precision being used to deliver an approximate outcome I think is too much. I'm not sure if 'cognitive dissonance' is involved, but I think it should be.
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Ian
246 posts
Jan 25, 2016
5:42 PM
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I wouldn't say LO feel like toys any more than a lot of harps out there. The first time I held a sp20 I was like.... Seriously? This is what all the fuss is about!
I think a lot of hollow plastic comb harps have that light weight feel to them which can put people off.
Its like the promaster... I mean it's the same harp as the bluesmaster, just with heft, but people rate it more because, imo, A they paid more for it and B it feels like a real instrument .
Feel goes a long way in convincing people to go with a harp.
Strap a block of lead to a harp and you will have people saying all sorts of positives!
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Killa_Hertz
346 posts
Jan 25, 2016
7:41 PM
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Bluesmaster has same reeds as promaster?
I feel that rebuild cost shouldn't be a factor over comfort and playability.
As i said I've yet to break a reed in any harp. I buy whatever plays and feels best. The rest is all BS. Who cares if a harp cost less to rebuild if it sucks to begin with. Just Sayin.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 25, 2016 7:49 PM
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Killa_Hertz
347 posts
Jan 25, 2016
7:54 PM
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Best harp in my opinion. Marine Band 1896.
Pull the nails, replace with screws, sex bolts in the covers, flat sand draw plate, gap, shape/arch reeds, install custom comb of choice. BOOM! These are my best playing harps hands down. And cost less than a crossover.. and a marine band deluxe.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1040 posts
Jan 26, 2016
1:16 AM
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Halffast - yeh! Sounds like you've had a more interesting life than me though (racing cars etc.)
Ian - yes I can't deny that the heft of a harp does give an impression.
I think we've nearly got kHz convinced :)
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Glass Harp Full
91 posts
Jan 26, 2016
2:26 AM
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kHz - sex bolts in the covers? That's the best typo I've seen on this forum :)
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Killa_Hertz
355 posts
Jan 26, 2016
9:45 AM
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No sex bolts are a real thing. .... lol. They are the style bolts that come on the crossovers and alot of other harps. The one side is like a sleeve and the other a screw which screws into the sleeve.
Rons sells them for $8 for a set of 4. I only use 2 per MB. Screws for the reedplates are $.02 a piece. I use about 7 on each harp. Then custom comb is about $15 - $20 bucks. Sandpaper to flat sand is a couple bucks.
I wish i could let everyone try my MB in C with the Zajac Comb that i converted to screws and gapped n arched. Tuned it to 19 Limit JI. It would change your life..... lol. It's almost too responsive. I kid u not, it's fantastic.
And cheaper than the crossover and deluxe. And means alot more Cus i made it.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 26, 2016 9:46 AM
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SuperBee
3297 posts
Jan 26, 2016
1:08 PM
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I agree with that. I only use 3 screws in the reed plates and 2 in the covers. I don't bother with sexbolts, just use a nut, but sexbolts are good. Just pricey.
The marine bands give the best result I think. Best value for money. I'll see how good I can get these promasters but they are like $200 harps to start with. Although I bought them for $25 so they're legit to work on. I would be furious if I'd paid retail for them.
Neil Graham used to customise LOs. Must find out what he did with them. I know he makes his own combs.
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Glass Harp Full
92 posts
Jan 26, 2016
1:34 PM
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I stand corrected. I have a Crossover so I've seen that style of bolt, just never knew they were called sex bolts. I learn something new on this forum everyday :)
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MindTheGap
1045 posts
Jan 26, 2016
11:42 PM
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I went to Rons site to look too - and yes. Why are they called that? I've never heard it before is it a bona-fide engineering term??? Well, they say it can be used to sell anything!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 26, 2016 11:42 PM
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Harmlessonica
177 posts
Jan 27, 2016
5:53 AM
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The terminology male for bolts/plugs and female for screw thread holes/sockets is fairly common in engineering, technology etc.
Here in the UK, however, I think we call those cabinet bolts...
Or to put it another way:
"No sexbolts please, we're British."
:)
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Last Edited by Harmlessonica on Jan 27, 2016 5:54 AM
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MindTheGap
1048 posts
Jan 27, 2016
6:02 AM
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LOL :)
Sure for male/female. Actually I had someone look askance at me the other day when I used that terminology. As if he'd never heard it before and thought I was making a lewd remark. Young people, what are they like? They've never heard of thrupenny bits. Or groats. Don't know how to replace a gas mantle.
So it's 'sexbolts' in the USA is it? I'm not going to be ordering any of those then, I can just picture Mrs MTG's admonishing expression when that turns up as a description on my credit card bill.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2016 6:05 AM
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MindTheGap
1049 posts
Jan 27, 2016
6:15 AM
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BTW, just a reminder this is a thread in praise of Lee Oskar's harps!
At lunch I did a quick bit of playing on a Crossover, and SP20 and LO all in A. I thought the gapped SP20 was the most responsive, but when I recorded them I did like the sound of the LO best. It's got a sort of papery quality. Must be those cheap covers.
Also I could get the most 'singey' vibrato out of the LO. I expect that's because what I'm tuned to, but just speaking as a I find, not making any claims.
Actually I wonder if part of the dislike of LOs is that you can't customise them very much - alternative combs and covers and so on. kHz delights in his handiwork and I can totally understand that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2016 6:17 AM
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Harmlessonica
178 posts
Jan 27, 2016
6:23 AM
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I only have the one Lee Oskar, which I bought as an economical way to try harmonic minor tuning.
As first, being used to Seydel harmonicas, I was a little disappointed with the build quality, but then this was almost half the price of those.
I haven't had any hair pulls to date; it could be that some people over tighten the cover screws which can cause some buckling.
What did strike me, however, was how amazingly responsive it was. I don't know if this was just because I'm used to stiffer stainless steel reeds or what, but it was like a breath of fresh air at the time. I could relax and not fight the harp, concentrating solely on the holes I was aiming for. With vamping in particular, it captured subtle chord play surprisingly well.
Also, with the harmonic minor you can just noodle around and listeners think you actually know what you're doing...
I have made some quick recordings, but nothing I'm brave enough to post here.
MTG, please post some of your samples. I bet they're awesome. They may even encourage me to buy a second Lee Oskar...
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MindTheGap
1051 posts
Jan 27, 2016
7:18 AM
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Sadly I don't think my playing is going to convince anyone! All mouth and no trousers I'm afraid :( When it comes to harmonicas, anyway.
Edit: On reflection that's a bit churlish - this is the beginners forum after all? So here I am noodling around. This isn't music, just enjoying playing about and getting sounds out of the thing. Go on, I bet you do that too when it's just you and the cat (or dogs).
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2016 1:46 PM
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Harmlessonica
179 posts
Jan 28, 2016
12:00 AM
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Told you it would sound awesome...
I bet if you posted that clip with no other info, no one would guess that sweet tone came from a Lee Oskar.
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SuperBee
3302 posts
Jan 28, 2016
5:25 AM
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wow, whats wrong with that...i've been accused of sandbagging before but ive got nothing on you in that dept. good work.
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MindTheGap
1056 posts
Jan 28, 2016
8:09 AM
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Thanks for the kind words. I like the idea that we post our routine, ordinary practice warts and all rather than special things.
I keep meaning to learn some stuff to play properly solo - I always like it when I hear it. It needs the strong rhythmic element. But I like it best of all when it's interchanged with vocals.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 28, 2016 8:12 AM
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Killa_Hertz
371 posts
Jan 28, 2016
9:59 AM
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Well i tried to post something in here yesterday, but captcha ate it.
It says something along the lines of this. ...
MTG. Monday I took one of my Lee Oskars and worked on it a lil bit. Then i sat with it a while. And as ive said I've been playing TB alot lately. So when i first started playing it, i couldn't remember why i didn't like this harp. It was playing OK. Then as i got into it and started playing pucker .... and i quickly remembered .....
SQUEEEEEELLLL !!! AAAHHH WTF !!!!! NOO!!!
Those bends really squeel when you hit em hard. That's why i stopped playin LO i think. I know this can be fixed and some people don't have this problem, but idk. Other than that it wasn't as bad as i remembered, but still not great.
I will say that i think I'm falling in love with the recessed plate Harps again. I attribute this mostly to the addition of TB to my playing. I really really like the Session Steel. Thats all i played for a while when i first started and am not sure why i stopped. I found that the covers and harp in general (both the session and 1847) was a bit fat when playing all pucker. But now i think they are great for TB and the plastic comb on session is nice to have too.
I dare say that the Marine Bands feel too slim and not as nice to play TB.
**Looking for the Lightning**
All i know is the flip flopping is kinda drivin me nuts. I can't help it tho. What feels best is what feels best.
But the LO, especially in the lower keys
Like G, have the fatter covers also. So maybe there is hope for them yet IDK. We ll see. 8^)>
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Killa_Hertz
372 posts
Jan 28, 2016
10:03 AM
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BTW nice playing. I just Listened to it. Sounded really good. And yes your new name is now MindTheSandBags. WTF. Your always saying how you can't play. I dig it bro.
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MindTheGap
1057 posts
Jan 28, 2016
10:44 AM
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Thank you for the encouragement kHz. As Mrs MTG would tell you, I'm not one for false modesty so maybe I've overdone it here. But I never feel happy playing unaccompanied, acoustic harp. I feel exposed. I don't sing, but if I did I'd always be fretting about whether it sounds any good. I like the drums - at some fundamental level you hit them, in time, and they make a nice sound!
As for reed squeal - I can't deny that LOs do that, and it's an undesirable feature. I have found that I can generally overcome it with technique, I have to be a bit bolder with attack. I find that if I'm a bit feeble with the note, that's when it starts up. So in a sense, they are good 'training wheels' for me.
I don't think there was any squeal in that recording, I'd have to listen again.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 28, 2016 10:47 AM
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Ian
251 posts
Jan 28, 2016
4:19 PM
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Mtg.... Really nice man. Thats the kind of playing that I really appreciate. Solid, fluid blues harp.
Some great licks in there. I've taken notes!
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Killa_Hertz
373 posts
Jan 28, 2016
5:29 PM
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MTG I'm just bustin chops. I wouldn't say your falsely modest.
I hear you on the feeling exposed thing. That's a problem with me aswell. In fact i played better today than i have in a while. Because everyone in the house is out for the week. So i just came home n played my heart out Cus no one could hear me. 8^)>
Idk if you're right about the training wheels. My train of thought says that full attack is not always the way to go. Sometimes you wanna hit it light or fade into it. Idk that's just me . I could be wrong. Ive been flip flopping between so many different harps lately, what do i know.
Today i had my session steel, sp 20, and MB 19 limit all in C and was just ripping on all of em. It would be hard to pick a favorite at this point. I think every harp has its pros and cons.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 28, 2016 5:30 PM
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MindTheGap
1058 posts
Jan 28, 2016
11:57 PM
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Thanks Ian, appreciated.
Re attack, yes I agree variety is good. What I'm saying is that it's good for me, personally, as it counteracts a tendency to play a bit too hesitantly for my own liking.
I get the impression that at least one goal of the customisers is to improve the responsiveness of the harp. In may case that can lead to some habits that I don't like. We are always reading that beginners hit the notes far too hard, I tend towards the opposite.
I've never tried a Manji, but from what I read it seems to be something along these lines - the notes are not the easiest to get going, but are strong when you do. Is that a correct description?
It's a feature of that Sonny Boy's Mojo I mentioned - there's a little 'step' to get over to start the note, but then the note is strong. As opposed to a cheapo harp where there is a step, but then the note is soft. My gapped SP20s start with the lightest breath. In reality there must be a step too - but for practical purposes it doesn't feel like it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 29, 2016 2:38 AM
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Ian
253 posts
Jan 29, 2016
3:09 AM
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Mtg, re the manji question.... They are very tightly gapped ootb so they respond with a very light breath.
The bends do need a bit more attack than a MB or sp20.
The reeds feel more similar to a seydel. I guess they are slightly stiffer.
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Killa_Hertz
380 posts
Jan 29, 2016
5:27 AM
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I think MTG description of the manji is right on. The notes won't play with a really light breath, but once you get em goin they sound great. However like Mtg i play very light most of the time. I feel seydel reeds are not like the manji reeds but closer to hohner.
As with your SP20 my "custom" ( or maybe i should say "worked on", by me). ... C Marine Band is SO responsive its actually too much sometimes. If i breathe in through my nose the notes sound. And the harp is LOUD. So Every little thing is picked up. You have to be careful when playing it to not get unwanted notes, but it sure saves breath.
BTW i ment to put that"What are you working on? " thread in this side. But i messed up. I figured i would get more elaborate explanations in here. And i think it would be more useful for beginners. Maybe i should repost it in here. Idk
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1064 posts
Jan 29, 2016
11:03 AM
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So, Ian says they are, kHz says they aren't. What's the story? :)
BTW re the 'What's the best Lo-F harp' on the main forum, I have a Lee Oskar one, and it all works fine. I certainly can't claim it's any better than another one, coz I've only got the one.
Personally I have to work fairly hard to get the 2D to bend right down, but that's definitely me - it feels like the G harp but a bit more so. If I don't play the G for a while, I have to spend a bit of time on that bend too.
Mostly I use it for playing G in 3rd position as a nice alternative to always picking up the C-harp.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 29, 2016 11:05 AM
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Killa_Hertz
387 posts
Jan 29, 2016
2:50 PM
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Idk .. i guess everyone is different, but that's my Only beef with the manji. I love everything about it. Accept the fact that it doesn't play with a light touch. Atleast mine doesnt. And ive put a good amount of time into tryin getting to get it to.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Ian
264 posts
Feb 02, 2016
8:04 AM
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That's the things with harps I guess, even within the same model they are all a bit different.
My manjis can play a clear note from 6 inches, I reckon they would sound in a light breeze.
Back to Lee oskar....
Have you got any minor keys MTG? If so, what are they like?
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MindTheGap
1091 posts
Feb 02, 2016
2:03 PM
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No I don't have any minor keys actually. Maybe I should. Harmlessonica has one (above). Certainly a good way of adding a new twist. Thing is, there's choice there too: you can get a harmonic minor or natural minor.
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Ian
266 posts
Feb 02, 2016
4:25 PM
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Didn't see that post....
I've been thinking of getting a minor key for a while. Started after playing with 3rd position a bit.
Choice... Last thing I need is more choice ;) probably natural minor...
Last Edited by Ian on Feb 02, 2016 4:28 PM
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