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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
3rd position
3rd position
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Killa_Hertz
406 posts
Feb 01, 2016
9:12 PM
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Well i finally dug in and figured out a little about 3rd position.
Mind Blown.
No not really, but it is pretty cool. Very different feel. Finally found a use for the 3'''.
I'm barely scratchin it here, but I just wanted to finally figure out the scales to start with. I skipped all that in the beginning. It was boring. There are so many different modes n what not. Kinda makes your head spin.
I also want to figure out more about scale degrees. Always hear about flat 7ths n all this. Anyone have any good resources?
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3333 posts
Feb 02, 2016
12:07 AM
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I wrote an epic post on it the other day which fell kinda flat. Should I feel embarrassed about that?. It is under MTGs 'harp helps with theory' thread. There are some resources mentioned by others there too.
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MindTheGap
1086 posts
Feb 02, 2016
4:10 AM
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Yes, it was a good post. Dense but packed with key info.
As if that weren't enough, here's a nice little primer on 2nd position scales from David Barrett, check out his 'Usable Harmonica Blues Scale' at the end.
http://archive.harmonicasessions.com/aug09/Barrett.html
DB's books do cover this scale stuff very well too. He's got one that specifically covers 3rd position for instance.
It's worth saying that there are various ways to look the same thing: scales vs chord tones. Superbee's summary leans towards the chord tones.
In jazz (which I know next to nothing about as I shall now demonstrate), there are two distinct approaches to improvising Chord-Scale vs Chord-Tone. I think in one you work on the scale of the current chord, in the other you focus more on the notes that make up the current chord.
In blues, it works out that you can use that blues scale (and variants of it) all over the 12-bar sequence without having to worry about chord changes. Personally I prefer to do stuff which signals the changes - mostly because I want to give a clear signal to my band mates. But it's also uniquely satisfying to play a single note or little figure while the band runs through the changes underneath you. Who's the musician then, not me!??? :)
If you try recording yourself playing over a backing track, and just do the blues scale stuff, it can sound just the job. But if you take away the BT from the recording, you might find it to be somewhat formless noodling. Whereas if you focus on the chord-tones, then it adds structure.
IMO of course.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 02, 2016 4:45 AM
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Crawforde
54 posts
Feb 02, 2016
4:37 AM
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Quote
I wrote an epic post on it the other day which fell kinda flat. Should I feel embarrassed about that?. It is under MTGs 'harp helps with theory' thread. There are some resources mentioned by others there too.
Uhh ....that did anything but fall flat. I will refer back to it and read it again. Others probably will too. It was an epic post. Thanks for putting in the time and effort.
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Killa_Hertz
407 posts
Feb 02, 2016
5:35 AM
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I haven't had a chance to read it Bee, but i will after work. I'm just starting with 3rd. I just need some basic scale stuff for right now. Bit add i said i also want to learn a bit of theory so i can understand what people aye taking about. ..lol. i do better with videos than books. But im not apposed to buying a video set if you know of a good one. I just want a resource where i can learn it all the way through. Alot of people s videos just jump around and don't teach it from start to finish. I mean i can stick to you tube and eventually find what i need, but i would rather just be tought the right way from start to finish. I really think at this point some REAL lessons would be very benificial. I'm finally ready to learn the technical stuff.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 02, 2016 5:39 AM
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Fil
100 posts
Feb 02, 2016
5:50 AM
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Bee, your post soared.
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Phil Pennington
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MindTheGap
1088 posts
Feb 02, 2016
6:09 AM
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Now I feel bad for only saying it was 'good' :)
My kids would have said it was indeed 'epic' meaning 'of high quality' rather than 'long'.
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Killa_Hertz
408 posts
Feb 02, 2016
9:22 AM
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My kids would have said it was indeed 'epic'
LMAO. .. ..
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Crawforde
56 posts
Feb 02, 2016
12:44 PM
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Ha,
The first time my son asked me to come and check out some "epic" thing he did on minecraft, I told him "I didn't have time right now, maybe later" .
he said " it will only take a second".
So I asked him how it was epic.
Thus proving once again that anyone over thirty is an idiot to a tween or teenager.
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Killa_Hertz
410 posts
Feb 02, 2016
7:52 PM
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Bee thanks for that explaination. But most of that i already knew. The problem is i don't know what to do with it. Lol
I know the whole whole half whol whole whole half deal. And I know what the scale degrees are, but Now what.
Basically what im saying is ... Just cus i know my numbers doesnt mean i can do algebra. Ya kno. There has got to be a good video lesson on this stuff from start to finish. All respects to Dave Barrett, but i don't perticularly like his teaching meathod.
Idk. Im going to keep searching.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3335 posts
Feb 02, 2016
8:32 PM
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maybe this
or this
probably help if you defined the question a bit tighter. what is it you want to understand about scale degrees?
maybe you want to know more about chords or composition?
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 02, 2016 8:44 PM
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Killa_Hertz
412 posts
Feb 02, 2016
9:00 PM
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Ok your right sorry. Juliard ... lol. I ain't got it like that. I never went to regular college.
Ok well i wanna learn 3rd position. And better learn 2nd.
And really be able to understand why certain notes are better than others in a certain cituation.
I want to really, truly be able to undestand the scales. Not just be able to play them.
I don't want to learn theory for theory sake. I only want to learn what i NEED to know for now. And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself idk.
There's alot of talk about scale degrees and while i know what they are. I don't know why or when to play them.
Idk is hard to put into words, because i really don't know, what i don't know. Lol.
Perhaps i should just stick to practicing 3rd postion blues scale for now. And take it one step at a time. Idk. Its alot to learn all at once.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 02, 2016 9:19 PM
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SuperBee
3337 posts
Feb 02, 2016
10:07 PM
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Ok, thats why I wrote about scales first, then scale degrees and then chords.
One way you can approach accompaniment and improvisation is to work with the chords.
It's not the only way, but it's a way.
If you know what the chords are in the song, you know which notes are involved
Eg
C7
If you see the song has this chord, and the guitarist is strumming away, and you want to blow some notes that are gonna sound cool in the part of the song which is a C7 chord
What are the notes that make up that chord?
If you play those, what you play is gonna be harmonious with the chord.
You don't have to play them all.
You can play just one of them. You can play 2 of them. You can make up a little rhythm out of them.
So first thing, what are the notes in a C7 chord?
Like I posted in that big post...
It's the root, 3rd, 5th and flat 7.
Do you know where to find those on your harp?
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SuperBee
3338 posts
Feb 02, 2016
10:20 PM
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First thing is, what are the notes, and then it depends which harp, right?
The note names are C, E, G, Bb.
The answer to where they are is gonna be different if you have an F harp or a C harp or a Bb harp or an Ab harp
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SuperBee
3339 posts
Feb 02, 2016
10:28 PM
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If you have an F harp, that's great. Those notes are in holes 2, 3, 4 and 5. And they are all draw notes.
That most famous of all blues harp moves is available to you...wailing on the 4 and 5 draw, shaking the harp between those two notes...the 5th and the b7...and you can slide down to the 2 draw to wrap it up..
Not only that...you can bend the 2 draw down and that whole tone bend is another flat seventh...and the 1 draw is another 5th...that's awesome!
That's the miracle of second position.
Dominant 7th chords are very popular in blues, and rocknroll and that's one reason second position is so popular...(one could say it's uh the dominant position...then again, no)
But if you had a Bb harp and you wanted to play along to that chord...
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SuperBee
3340 posts
Feb 02, 2016
11:14 PM
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Then you would be looking at some different stuff, because you're Bb harp only has notes from the key of Bb major
Bb C D Eb F G A
Plus some you can get by bending
B, E, F#, Ab, Db,
So you need C E G Bb. You don't have an E on that harp, the only way you can get it is to bend draw 2 a half step, or blow bend 9. So your a bit compromised.
Not having that note easily available isn't the end of the world. You could just leave it out. Or you could play the Eb. That's a minor 3rd and it will give a certain colour to what you play, but it may sound ok anyway. Often a minor 3rd is ok over a major chord, but that doesn't often work so well the other way.
But in any case, this example may help to demonstrate the idea of strengths and weaknesses of various positions. Maybe you're great at the 2 draw half step and it won't phase you. But you're still a bit compromised in the middle octave.
Positions aside, if we think about that C7 chord again..what if the guitar player plays a C9 chord?
What is the 9th degree?
It's the 2nd, an octave up.
What it means is that you can include the 9th (or second) and it will sound cool...it will have a fighting chance anyway...still depends how you present it as to how cool it sounds...
But of course, you really have the whole scale to work with, it's just about which notes you might want to emphasise or feature in your work.
Like the bass player is there outlining the chord right? Like that's what the bass job is in a lot of ways. And they love the rhythm, they've got the rhythm and the feel and the time going
And you have to work in what you're doing, but if you know your instrument, and you have practiced your scales and arpeggios as a way of knowing your instrument, and you can see a chart or you can discern what the chords are...maybe you've played a chording instrument and you've got a good ear for that...then you can pick your notes...predict what's likely to sound good against that backdrop.
So really all these things are is a kind of naming convention, jargon, to help musicians communicate, and just like learning the alphabet or ohms law or the times tables, periodic table etc...getting it into your mind so you just know it..takes time and repetition and dedication...but once you know it...you don't have to think about it.
And it's only one way to approach it. You can learn to play in other ways. Most of what I play I learned in other ways. Copycat stuff. Or serendipity. Or just playing scale patterns like that triplet thing I showed a while ago, and using parts of those to get from once place to another.
And as many do especially with the 3 chord stuff you can often just base your playing on scales. That works great. Careers have been built on playing major pentatonic scales. You can get really good at that stuff.
But if you know your scales and your harp and can throw in a note from outside at the right place it can really lift the thing...a year or so ago I was doing a run through of some ideas for songs with a couple of string players...one that they threw in was 'Makin' whoopee'...I knew the tune of course but I'd never tried to play the song...I took a look at the chord chart and played as the guitar and bass went through it...the guitarist stopped playing and just looked at me...'I'm impressed' was all he said...just because some of those chords I was quickly able to translate and pull out the important signal notes...
I got lucky...they were chords I knew, I'd been studying a different song in the same key with similar chords, and practicing scales and arpeggios in different positions, relating to those chords. I could get there quickly, but that's kind of the point.
I haven't even touched on transitions from one chord to another.
Or harmony. I only had a primer on harmony really.
I think you won't find 'a' video that gives you this end to end. It's a deep well. And the info is just the kick off point.
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SuperBee
3341 posts
Feb 03, 2016
1:32 AM
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Oh, I meant to say to Crawforde and Fil, thank you for letting me know you found that post on theory to be helpful. It's hard to know whether I'm just banging on about things. And I'm aware of the 'beginner' level of my understanding too.
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MindTheGap
1092 posts
Feb 03, 2016
1:53 AM
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Another excellent summary, thank you!
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SuperBee
3343 posts
Feb 03, 2016
3:57 AM
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Third position is a good topic anyway.
I don't use it much. Friend of mine likes to jam Black Magic Woman and I fumble around with it there.
My favourite is Minnie The Moocher.
Also St James Infirmary
And when the chord changes to the V often I try to find something from 3rd pos...usually not very inspired...maybe +4, 3", 2', 1 or vice versa ish, using the 4...
But I have no licks or scale patterns in 3rd really, just the notes of the scale and half baked 3rd pos blues scale...from 4 to 8. Just never really worked on it, and really should because it's very cool to use if someone breaks out a minor blues.
Just my obs at my local club, but it seems to me that when someone at the jam decides to go minor, the general feel of the song is far more likely to suit harmonica than the usual 'blues' they offer. Maybe it's just how I feel it.
Anyway, I must look into working up the 3rd position chops, beyond just a couple of tunes.
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Killa_Hertz
413 posts
Feb 03, 2016
9:29 AM
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Dude Thanks So Much For All that. Really. That was alot to type. That Pretty much is what i want to know more about. I just didn't know how to explain it. Right now i play by ear and im pretty good at playing that way, but i also want to know the other ways.
I'm not sure how to get deeper into it. Or even how to put it into practice as i don't learn songs that way right now. Maybe there is a book or lesson which takes a song and breaks it all down so i can really learn the chords and put it into practice. Or figure out what notes to play like you were saying. If C7 what notes to play and where are they on the harp. That type thing is what i want to know also.
I know the basic basic stuff root,3rd 5th and all that , but i want to dig in deeper to what you just explained. I find it interesting how you can transfer the same songs onto different harps.
I know this is all a wide and vast subject. But maybe a book wouldn't be too bad. I found it pretty easy to absorb what you just wrote.
Anyone have a good book in mind. Xerxa harmonica for dummies? Or maybe aJohn Gindick Book? Im sure i could find one, but Ide hate to buy a book just to figure out it sucks and isn't what im looking for.
Thanks again Bee. You need to Copy Both of those posts ( The ones from here and MTGs other thread) and put them in a Sticky. I don't think this forum has stickies, but maybe Nacoran can put it up some where.
Thanks man.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Rontana
284 posts
Feb 03, 2016
11:57 AM
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@Khz
Okay, so I'm one of these people that has never been able to comprehend music theory (it makes my eyes glaze over when I see Roman Numerals, note names, or read about 3ds and 5ths and 7ths and such).
In my younger days I actually quit a couple of instruments because my teachers insisted on trying to teach me "why" I was doing something instead of simply teaching me "how" to do it. It just turned me off of the whole thing.
So here's my advice, and what I did. Find yourself a teacher (1-on-1 is best but Skype is okay too) and tell him/her exactly what you're looking for. Let them know you're not interested in learning theory at the present time, but want to know "How" to play in third (or better in second, or whatever). You probably won't need a ton of lessons to get your basic footing (lessons are expensive as a rule). It sounds like you just need enough to clear things up a little.
You're the customer, and most teachers will go along with your wishes (and if they don't, then they're not the teacher for you). After all, the restaurant serves what you order and pay for, not what they think you should eat.
I get where you're coming from, as I'm an ear player too (though tabs can be helpful until you memorize a tune and can start jazzing it up, tweaking it, etc). It may even be more extreme in my case, as I build all sorts of stringed instruments from the ground up, shape the neck, set break angles, space the frets correctly, intonate the thing, and even play them.
BUT . . . I couldn't tell you "why" doing things in a certain way works . . . and really don't care why. I just care that it works (I mostly taught myself via trial and error, with some help from books)
This is not a slam against learning music theory; I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way. For some people, maybe most, it's important. However, everyone's brain is wired just a bit different. And, some of us (me, for example) have an almost visceral reaction at the idea of having to learn theory.
I'm a "how" person. Show me the how of a thing and I can run with it from there. Try and tell me "why" and I'll probably politely slink off and take a nap.
Hope that helps. As for books . . . I'd go for Gindick (Rock n' Blues, or Bluesify Your Melody are both excellent)
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Killa_Hertz
418 posts
Feb 03, 2016
3:23 PM
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Thanks. That's good advice. I was actually talking to Ronnie Shellist about doing a skype lesson. I'm not sure who the best person would be to teach something like this.
I just think that not knowing this stuff is a big disadvantage. If you know notes relation to eachother i feel like the licks would almost write themselves. Ofcourse doing things by ear and with the other half of the brain is awsome, but being able to figure out a song without even having to play it. That's a pretty good tool to have. To say the least.
I just want to know everything i can that can help me play better. But right now there is so much i don't know, I'm not really sure where to start.
But the lesson is a good idea. Thanks.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Killa_Hertz
426 posts
Feb 03, 2016
9:06 PM
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I have a question.
Which key harp is most useful for 3 rd positon? If you had to pick one. And which key harp is most useful overall??
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3349 posts
Feb 03, 2016
9:29 PM
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I reckon C or G.
good question which i don't recall ever seeing before
a lot of third position is on chromatic. C is the most common Chromatic, and i reckon G may be 2nd.
i think you'll find quite a bit of 3rd position on record is in D
i believe A minor is the most commonly used minor key in popular music.
G harps are way cool anyway
and everyone has a C harp
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MindTheGap
1098 posts
Feb 03, 2016
11:23 PM
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The two most useful I find are:
An A-Key harp in 3rd gives B/Bm, which is useful because otherwise it's an E-key harp played in 2nd position which is a high sound.
A Bb-key harp in 3rd gives C/Cm, which again is a useful thing vs always playing an F-key harp in 2nd position.
I like the sound of the high key harps very much, but they aren't always appropriate (see again: always blaring like a mad farm goose).
In that sense, even a D-key harp in 2nd position (A) is a pretty insistent sound. A G-key in 3rd position (also A) is softer.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 03, 2016 11:29 PM
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Killa_Hertz
428 posts
Feb 04, 2016
5:36 AM
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Well. Hmmm. Guess I'm still stuck.
I wanted to know so i could grab just one harp to practice with for a while. I find it just adds to the confusion to be switching all around when trying to learn new techniques.
Also wanted to know for knowledge sake.
Maybe ill go with G. My G doesn't get enough use.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3355 posts
Feb 05, 2016
5:19 AM
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My unscientific survey of 39 songs in 3rd position, alphabetical by performer, only got as far as william clarke, and doesnt include william clarke.
results were (Keys of harp):
1. G, 5, Ab, 2, A, 5, Bb, 3, B, 1, C, 1, Db, 0, D, 0, Eb, 0, E, 0, F
2. Chromatic, C, 22
i actually got sick of counting the chromatic results because it was clear they were overwhelmingly on a C chromatic, and that third is most commonly used with a chromatic. when i got to william Clarke, almost all his 3rd was on chromatics but he used different keys of chromatic.
anyway, from my survey i can say that outside of Key D using a C Chromatic, a harp in G and a harp in A seem to be the most popular for 3rd.
that makes sense to me...i dont think i'd want to play third in anything above a C harp really, and if its D or Eb you want, a chromatic gives you lower octave than youll get on a diatonic harp
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 05, 2016 5:20 AM
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Killa_Hertz
436 posts
Feb 05, 2016
12:06 PM
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Cool. An A harp sounds better. I like A over G personally. Bb is prolly my favorite. But ill sick with an A i think. N really dig into 3rd.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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