Ian
275 posts
Feb 05, 2016
4:30 AM
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I won a new, low Eb Hohner Big River the other day on eBay, which arrived today.
I'm impressed!
I think I prefer it to the sp20 (if we are talking plastic combs) and for an apparently budget harp it plays without fault.
I may have got a good one but I haven't even needed to gap it.
I may use them in the future as backups, travel harps and key fillers etc.
Last Edited by Ian on Feb 05, 2016 4:31 AM
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jason campbell
77 posts
Feb 05, 2016
5:01 AM
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when i was in a spot once and needed an A, I picked up a Big River, and it's much better than I thought it was. It's the only budget harp I would consider now, I really don't like the Suzuki Folk Master harps much.
I still would rather have a SP20, Marine BAnd or 1847, but I don't mind playing the Big River.
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SuperBee
3356 posts
Feb 05, 2016
5:32 AM
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they have a more marine band sound than a 20, thanks to the covers...
they actually are marine bands...kind of...back when MS harps were a new thing, Hohner was going to make everything MS, including SP20 and MB. I have never seen a MS MB, but i own a MS Sp20...that harp is the reason i avoided Sp20 for about 15 years...i didnt realise they had changed back to handmade...but the outcry was so widespread Hohner relented and went back to handmade for the sp20 and MB...the big is the harp which would have been labelled Marine Band..i'm not sure about the comb though. the BR comb i thik is the same as in the Pro Harp.
personally, my obs lead me to think its generally inferior to the sp20 comb, but 'good ones' do exist. i believe MS harps are actually pretty good these days, certainly in terms of the reeds, and really don't deserve the bad reputation the still seem to carry from the early mid-90s...they were pretty bad back then but at least since about 2010 i think theyve been quite good.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 05, 2016 5:32 AM
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Ian
276 posts
Feb 05, 2016
7:11 AM
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Yeah, I think for a budget harp it's really good.
I suppose I prefer it to the sp20 because of the covers and I prefer sandwich construction generally.
I have read lots of things slating the big river and the ms harps in general. If this one is anything to go by then I think it's fairly unsubstantiated these days when you consider the price etc.
It makes me wonder when will hohner produce a plastic or acrylic comb marine band? Of the same standard to the crossover.
Its surely the next step as they seem to be trying to recreate custom harps, or at least following the lead of customisers.
Last Edited by Ian on Feb 05, 2016 7:15 AM
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Killa_Hertz
433 posts
Feb 05, 2016
9:27 AM
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I think the Rocket is the answer to that. Like a SP20/MB.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Ian
278 posts
Feb 05, 2016
10:04 AM
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From what I've seen the rocket has recessed plates.
I'm talking about full on sandwich construction.
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Killa_Hertz
435 posts
Feb 05, 2016
12:02 PM
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A sandwich with plastic comb?
I was referring to your marine band comment.
They Have MS harps with plastic combs. Blue midnight and others. But they suck. I think anyways.
I'm waiting for an out of the box custom. A true custom. Reedwork done. Custom comb that's actually flat. But honestly that takes half the fun out of it.
I wanna try a rocket. Anyone have one? What do you think of it?
Im hesitant to buy one because there the same price as a Session Steel. And they rock in my opinion. I know Bee hates the combs. But i think that can be said for all recessed harps.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Ian
279 posts
Feb 05, 2016
12:57 PM
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Yeah. Its got to be in the pipeline.
Crossover style covers and reed plates with a flat custom acrylic comb (blue moon style) .
Never tried the rocket but thats only as I'm not a mega sp20 fan. Otherwise I'm sure I would have!
Last Edited by Ian on Feb 05, 2016 1:02 PM
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SuperBee
3357 posts
Feb 05, 2016
1:22 PM
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IMHO, (and honestly it's just maybe imo because I actually believe I'm right, and that's not really 'humble' is it?) the sp20 comb is a cut above every other hollow plastic recessed comb. And in my small experience the rocket comb is better again.
I have seen 3 rockets. I think just 3. They were all like trick sp20s. Think of the best sp20s you ever had; these were better.
Maybe it's because they use the extra 2 screws in the reed plates, but I think it's the combs.
I put new 5 draw reeds in 2 of them. And I put 4! New reeds in the other. 6 and 7, blow and draw, had all been bent so far out of shape they would not play. Like, someone had sabotaged this harp. Maybe the guy was drunk and decided to open the gaps with a coat hanger. No idea but it wasn't a standard wreck. Anyway I put 4 new reeds in and it played like new. I actually straightened the reeds but then I got nervous about them having a short life expectancy so replaced them. I'd already quoted on the job but the guy had paid a bit extra out of generosity (I'm cheep) so no point skimping. If it'd been my own I would have just played it until it broke but with postage I can't do that with a customer's harp.
Anyway, beside the point. I think the rocket is a great harp.
A composite comb for marine band? Well it could happen. They could do it now if they wanted. I think they're pretty happy with the bamboo combs.
Don't stir me up about the session steel. I'll tell everything I know
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Rontana
286 posts
Feb 05, 2016
1:42 PM
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Ditto what SuperBee said on Rockets. I managed to get 4 of them about a year ago for a stupidly low price on Amazon (one of those warehouse deals that pops up for 5 minutes and then disappears. I'd likely have been too cheap to buy one otherwise.
Yup . . . imagine the best 20 you could find and go a bit further; that's the Rocket. All of them were gapped very high (I think the Rocket was initially designed with rock players in mind, more than blues, but I could be wrong). But, take care of that easy gapping tweak and you've got a heck of a harp.
Loud and responsive. Probably sounds louder to the player than the listener due to the open side vents, and to my ear they're a little brighter than a 20.
Oddly, I don't play them as much as I used to. I've started migrating to tin sandwich harps over the past couple months . . . mostly basic Marine Band. Just a different tone (again to my ear) than recessed reeds and plastic comb
Or not . . . it may be in the ear of the beholder
Last Edited by Rontana on Feb 05, 2016 1:45 PM
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Killa_Hertz
438 posts
Feb 05, 2016
2:13 PM
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Ron i think that's exactly my beef with the recessed harps. They just sound a bit off. But they play nicer. Again, now that I'm playing more TB i just am not feelin the sandwich style as much. I want to, but it is what it is.
I almost bought am 1847 silver to try a sandwich With a plastic comb. I have MB s with plastic bluemoons on em and they re nice. But not as nice as the recessed. Idk maybe I'm converted. Or maybe when i get better at TB I'll switch back. Who knows. (And who cares more like it.) 8^)>
Bee please let me have it with the SS combs. I wanna hear why u hate em. Maybe you ll convince me. And i heart you say peoples pictures need embossing alot. How do you do that. I'm gonna post some picks and i wanna make em fit right
Thanks
Seriously tho. What's the deal with u and the SS combs. Lol.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3358 posts
Feb 05, 2016
2:23 PM
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I think you're correct about the perceived market for the rocket. That gapping sounds like part of the controversial new gapping standard which hohner briefly adopted when they released the rocket. It affected marine bands and sp20s too. As you noted Ron, easily fixed and some bargains to be had. I bought 5 marine bands, similarly afflicted for just over $20 each.
I thought perhaps they were going to use a different tuning standard for rockets, but I'm told it isn't so; they are tuned to same standard as MB 1896, Deluxe and Sp20. Only the Crossover has a different compromise, and the GM of course is ET. I'm still not sure what is supplied when one buys replacement reed plates for MB Deluxe/Crossover. It is the same product, I just don't know which tuning they use.
One reason I think the Rocket sounds different is the chambers in the comb are redesigned. Another is the vented covers make it louder to the player than the Sp20. People have been slow to adopt the Rocket, upon which Hohner decided the vented covers were to blame, so they released the 'Amp' version with non-vented covers. I don't know if they are selling any better as a result. Personally I expect it's the hefty price which restricts sales more than any other factor. I guess Hohner figure Seydel are charging extra and building the business which makes room for hohner to move the price point for a 'premium' product...but I dunno if people buy it...I think Seydel make a big deal about the durability and tuning stability of their ss reeds, and people seem to accept that, whereas hohner have put the work into better combs with their already-superior reed design, but because they are brass reeds and players break them and they're more susceptible to tuning drift, I think it's a harder sell and maybe the average punter doesn't quite dig it.
Did I mention I'm not a fan of Seydel products?
Actually, I have no beef with the 1847. It's a fine product, just a bit overpriced for what it is. The 1847 silver, well set up, is as good as a good marine band and it's true they have better pitch stability for longer. Whether the reeds will take abuse for longer prior to failure, I don't know. I know they break, and sometimes quickly, but people who break a lot of reeds and have switched to Seydel would have a better idea. It's a difficult thing to measure. I've read reports from some very disappointed players who thought the steel reeds would fix their problems and found they just had more expensive broken harps. But most seem to think they last longer. Bbq bob is correct though, the real key to harp longevity is in how you play and care for your harps. A lot of tuning problems are caused by a build up of yuck on the reeds. It does particularly build up on the fixed end.
Ah, rambling OT. Sorry OP. I'm gonna walk my dog then tidy up the veggie patch. It's a long weekend here, in honour of our annual regatta. This town has a very nice harbour. It used to be full of whales. It was a whale breeding nursery but by 1850 the locals and raiders had wiped them out. Whales are occasionally sighted here now, more frequently every year it seems, but I think they're unlikely to return to breeding here. The ecology has changed quite dramatically no doubt.
Oh, not that kind of 'big river'
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 05, 2016 2:25 PM
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SuperBee
3359 posts
Feb 05, 2016
2:54 PM
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Session combs...no...they are basically low qual...
Small sample size, but maybe bigger than most of those who share opinions based on a single harp they own, and who have never attempted to precision-tune a harp...futile pursuit though that may be.
I have tuned many harps and I have to do it to a precise standard because people are paying me and it's part of the service.
A big part of tuning a harp for me is to get the octave splits in tune. That's the main thing people do which highlights whether things are in tune. Chords are a compromise depending on which standard you apply but an octave split is gonna be smooth or it's not.
So when you are intent on tuning these things and making fine adjustments and testing and getting it right...drying off condensation etc...you notice if a harp is hard to get on with. And you wonder why that is. You look really closely at why it could be that this octave split just won't come smooth. And when a particular model gives trouble consistently you start to consider what it could be about that model which is causing trouble.
Having eliminated all the other variables I can think of, and having observed it's better than odds on that a session is gonna refuse to be tunable around the 6,7 slots, I am convinced it's a defective comb.
I see the same problem with older MS harps that have plastic combs.
For most people, it's not gonna be a big deal but it drives me crazy and I relieve the frustration by hating on that comb. And the big river comb.
It's an instability I see when I play the reed. It will vacillate over maybe 5 cents. It won't bother a person playing it, but it will irritate the shit out of a person obsessing over tuning it...
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Killa_Hertz
444 posts
Feb 05, 2016
6:46 PM
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Fair enough. I wonder how a comb could cause this. I'm not saying your wrong. I haven't tuned any of my seydels yet. I know how much of a pain in the ass it can be to get octaves beat free. The strobotune is pretty great. It gets em damn close. Then you just have to tell by how it acts, which one is off.
I will say that the stock tuning marks on seydel harps are very neat and precise. Some hohners reeds are hideous. The steel reeds are a pain to adjust tho.
Well i have heard you bash the SS a few times. So i was just curious. I love em. I like the tuning aswell. And the covers. It's just a solid lil harp. Solid like the promaster, but it actually plays well. Lol.
Anyways, my opinion.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3361 posts
Feb 05, 2016
9:00 PM
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air leaks
sometimes its a twist in a reed, but i think when they change pitch like this its about air leaks between comb and plate. twisty reed is more likely to squeal. you can flatten the plate on these harps, but you can't really flatten the comb. thats why i prefer to see those plates on a silver comb. i have one here atm thats on a Solist pro comb. the owner is very fond of it. i havent tried to tune it yet.
id say theres a dimple or a flash on the session comb. its gonna be a thing going on with the mould. its been fairly consistent with the repairs and the harps i built with spare parts, not a random thing.
the sp20 is generally pretty good, though when i asked AZ to build me a cuzzo SP20, he wrote back advising how a MB would be a much better product, and if it was just budget rather than a specific preference for sp20, he thought it a false economy. i took his advice and coughed up the xtra dough for the MB. funny, since then ive seen a lot more sp20 and i like them more now than i did then.
lots of people like the session. i understand. theres a lot of subjectiveness about this. you touched on it in your 'revisiting' thread. something happens in the way you play and you start to perceive things differently.
Ive been practising curmudgeonliness a while now. it took me a long time to become a rusted-on hohner player
Promaster is a better harp than a session imho. you can really launch those things, and if you hit the target, it stays hit.
i mended too many harps last year...im gonna give it a rest i think and just play harp for a few years. maybe do work for locals only.
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Glass Harp Full
96 posts
Feb 05, 2016
9:01 PM
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I have one Big River, in D. I like the size and feel of it and the sound, although it seems a bit softer than my other harps. I haven't played it that much so I can't say much about it's longevity. Like others have said, it's a good budget harp.
I'd been keen to try a Rocket for a while and so for Christmas I got a Rocket Amp (OK, I admit to going for the Amp version mainly because I thought the green comb was cool. I guess that marketing gimmick got me), but I do think it's a good harp. The rounded corners and bigger hole spacing make it more comfortable than most other Hohners. I had a slight problem with the 4 draw reed sticking but I fiddled with it a bit and it seems fine now.
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