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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Only MB crossover from now on?
Only MB crossover from now on?
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Tiggertoo1962
14 posts
Feb 16, 2016
6:04 AM
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Got home from work a couple of hours ago to find a lovely little MB Crossover in D which I won on fleabay waiting for me. The only key-for-key comparisons I have are a BH MS and SP20, and they don't come CLOSE!
I could easily be tempted to say that's my brand now, and I'm getting rid of everything else to finance the full set, but I have a feeling that would be kind of counter productive. Given the fact I'm a pretty recent wannabe-harpist, and my technique is a long way from being halfway decent, I think it's probably good to practise on harps which are a bit more difficult to play. I can imagine, if you can play a piece of shit harp you'll sound heaps better on anything decent, whereas if you practise solely on good harps, anything less could turn into a problem. What's you own thoughts and experiences on this one guys?
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ME.HarpDoc
120 posts
Feb 16, 2016
6:11 AM
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I humbly defer to Killa!!! He, among many, has the info to help us newbies.
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Fil
107 posts
Feb 16, 2016
6:48 AM
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Just my opinion, but I think one needs to learn and practice on decent harps. POS equipment won't help you. I would include SP20 in the decent category (because that's what I have?). Learning about what else is out there and trying different harps, mics, whatever, is good and necessary, but I'd say that a lot of time spent there and not playing is not going to help most people get better. Get decent harps and play and don't obsess about the equipment. That's the philosophy I'm trying to stick to.
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Phil Pennington
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Rontana
294 posts
Feb 16, 2016
7:18 AM
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What Fil said . . . . any decent harp (Sp. 20, Bluesmaster, Harpmaster, MB, Delta Frost . . . . ad nauseum, ad infinitum) will suit your purposes. All those are about half the cost of a Crossover.
If money is not a factor, however, then I'd say buy whatever you like. But, as far as settling on a certain brand/model (or brands/models) . . . that will most likely take a few years of playing. Your preferences will alter and change and bounce around.
These days I'm back to MB 1896 and SP 20. Whatever you like the best - and however much cash you feel like shelling out - is what you should play. Everyone has their own definition of "best."
Last Edited by Rontana on Feb 16, 2016 7:19 AM
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Tiggertoo1962
15 posts
Feb 16, 2016
8:31 AM
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Thanks for the feedback, guys.
Don't misunderstand me, I definitely don't class my other harps as "POS" - far from it. It's just that the crossover (for me) blows the others out of the water - not only from the tone, but the reponse, required breath force, ease of bending, you name it - and I was a bit worried that learning on such good harps could have a detrimental effect on my technique in the long run.
As I said, I could only make a direct comparison between those 3 harps, but I also have, e.g., Seydel Blues Session, SP20, Blues Harp (original model), and Manji in G and, for all the price difference between the Manji and the others, the difference in the harp itself didn't have the same effect on me. I love the tone of the Manji, especially playing chords, but I don't particularly find it easier to PLAY than the others.
Probably not fair to draw such comparisons in different keys, and maybe it's all in my head, but I feel I can play better on the Crossover than any of my other harps ATM.
Money unfortunately IS a factor (well as far as the wife is concerned, but opinions differ ;)) so I think I'll stick with the harps I have just now (got enough to be going on with) and keep my eyes skinned for anyone selling 2nd hand Crossovers in the meantime. Just as well I have a birthday coming up in a couple of months,,, :D
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MindTheGap
1173 posts
Feb 16, 2016
11:36 AM
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Tiggertoo - I think it's great when people post these strong positive opinions about harps they like. Keep it coming.
I think it would interesting though for you to read some of the other recent threads here where people have loved one above all, then changed their minds, and then brought out the unloved one from the back of the drawer and elevated it to most-loved status. I wonder if this might happen to you over the next months. Maybe, maybe not!
If you reckon the tone is superior, do have a look at/listen to Grey Owl's excellent Harmonica Tone Comparison. What it sounds like to your ears may not be what others hear.
As I say, if you've found your dream harp - that's great news. When I got a Crossover I did think it was really good: in tune, responsive, needed no gapping and felt well made. But I don't use mine so much because of practical/comfort reasons.
As for your point about practising on a non-ideal harp, I asked that question a short while ago and was persuaded that it's best to learn on a really good instrument, but then you can make it work on a lesser one. The 'lesser one' may make you work a bit harder for it, in which case there could be some merit in that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 16, 2016 11:43 AM
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SuperBee
3402 posts
Feb 16, 2016
12:38 PM
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I do think part of what you pay for with a crossover may be a good factory setup. I'm not sure, but when I look at them, the retail price difference in this country is about $35. That seems steep if it's just for the bamboo comb, so I wonder if there is some extra attention paid to the setup. (Ditto the thunderbird). Or maybe it's just market price point relativity.
A few years ago I decided to commit to playing crossovers, which led me to learn to do repairs since I really couldn't afford to be buying new replacements. And learning to do repairs enabled me to setup marine band 1896s to play like crossovers, and that sp20s are also very satisfactory when setup the way I like them...
So...each of us has our own thoughts about what we like and for our own reasons. I'm a fan of the hohner handmade range. the fact they are easy to setup and repair, and individual reeds are available from the factory relative cheaply is a big factor in why I like them. I do like the way they play, and really I'm just as happy with a sp20 as a crossover most of the time.
Hah...next week I will have a rare bird on my bench...a customer is sending a Harrison B-Radical for repair...and a Neil Graham custom...always interesting to see things like this up close, but somewhat challenging to repair and maintain the high standards of the builder...
Oh yes, OT...I agree the crossover raised the bar for retail harps, and they are usually very good. Enjoy!
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Glass Harp Full
102 posts
Feb 16, 2016
2:38 PM
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I really like the Crossover too. I agree with what others have said about its positive features. The only things I don't like are that it gets a bit uncomfortable to hold after a while and I prefer the bigger holes of a Suzuki. The price is an issue too. But all in all a great harp.
I don't do a lot tweaking with harps, just some basic gapping, but I'm becoming more convinced of the need to eventually learn how to do repairs. Maybe this is for another thread, but when do you think is the right time to learn how to do repairs? Do you need to be at a certain level of playing to understand what you're doing or can you start right away?
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Killa_Hertz
559 posts
Feb 16, 2016
3:58 PM
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Harp doc ... compared to most of these guys im still a newbie too, but i appreciate that you value my opinion.
I don't think there's much left to be said. Iagree that you should NOT buy a whole set just yet. If you want get another one.or two, but as MTG and Ron said you are likely to flop around quite a bit. But having said that, its not a bad harp so i doubt you ll regret buying them. the point is its good to have a variety so don't get rid of your other models because you will want to go back to them at some point (trust me) ive gotten hyped about a few models so i TOTALLY get were your at. And i also love the enthusiasm btw. It's usually me ranting about something. So it's cool to see someone else hype. I think if you get 2 or 3 keys of each model that you like you can have a pretty good representation of each. Get them slowly, as slowly as u need to. That way your not out a big chunk of money. And your always getting a new toy 8^)> I think you probably like the crossover because ( as bee said) i feel they may be set up better ootb. So if you learn to tweak your harps you can make any good model play well. A crossover is esecially a marine band with different tuning and a bamboo comb.
That kinda ties into GHFs question. Im not sure what you mean by repairs. But as far as tweaking.... I think everyone will have a different opinion here, but here's mine. I started tweaking my harps as soon as i learned to bend. So i think that's a good rule. If you can decently bend a few holes you should probably learn to atleast gap. And most of it is trial and error. So watch a few videos, grab a harp your not afraid to mess up and go for it. If you run into problems, ask somebody. Ill help you. Its easier than people make it sound.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 16, 2016 4:01 PM
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SuperBee
3403 posts
Feb 16, 2016
6:19 PM
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Hi GlassHarpFull,
I really don’t know if there is a right time to learn, but there definitely is a relationship between your playing ability and your ability to set up a harp.
The first harp I repaired, I was just happy to have it playing and in tune. Took me a little while to realise it wasn’t quite ‘right’ compared to the rest of the harp…and then when I did realise, I had to make it ‘right’…
And on down the rabbit hole.
If there'd been someone in Australia doing what I do now, I'd probably have sent my repairs to them. But there wasn't, so I paid for tools and learnt to do the job myself. I had some mentoring from MP. I bought Richard Sleigh's instructions. I had a personal session with Kinya Pollard. I watched as much video as I could. Read as much as I could. If you do this, you'll discover some differences of opinion, some folk make videos and presume to instruct others but really don't have much idea what they are doing. Some just repost things they've found. You have to use your own judgement.
Last year I repaired something like 200 harps. I have customers from Qld to WA.
There is at least one other repairer in Australia now too. At reasonable prices I mean. There are a couple others but they are top dollar folks. $80 for a reed repair in one instance. That's ok if you have $350 custom I guess. Not sensible for the gigging amateur who breaks half a dozen sp20s a year.
You may find learning to do repairs actually teaches you a lot about playing. I did.
I started repairs for myself in 2012. I started working for others in December 2014. By then I was confident my work held up and I'd learned enough complementary skills to be able to make a harp 'better than new'.
Gapping and reed shaping and tuning are all related skills, but repair is quite specific and satisfying work. I still enjoy repairs. If I could sublet the tuning, I'd be a happy repair guy. I am happy to tune my own, but imho the harmonica is by nature a somewhat imprecise and finicky pitch generator. And I'm a finicky technician. Sometimes I get 'tuning and service' jobs. I find it very hard to derive much satisfaction from these, but it's part of the job.
But if you have broken harps, and you don't mind the capital outlay, and you think you're gonna keep breaking them, why not?
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Glass Harp Full
103 posts
Feb 16, 2016
8:07 PM
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Thanks for the advice guys.
By repair I meant things like replacing reeds and tuning/retuning harps. At most I'm an advanced beginner and my ear is still developing, so up til now I've thought practicing is the best use of my time. But I do think SuperBee makes a good point about repairing helping with playing. And I think I do play quite hard, so it's likely I'll keep breaking reeds.
I think starting out on a harp I don't mind wreaking is a good idea. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Tiggertoo1962
16 posts
Feb 17, 2016
5:48 AM
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Loads of good advice/comments there folks, cheers.
MTG - thanks for the thumbs up. Nice to know when a post or attitude is appreciated.
I've already read the "revisiting harps" thread, and am pretty sure this will also apply to me somewhere down the line once my style improves and develops. I was actually only kidding about selling some harps to finance others, as I'm of the opinion that you can't have too many, and I sure don't want to make a loss on some, only to pay full price again when I later discover that they are really cool after all. I'm far too Scottish for that ;). Much better idea to sell off some of my RC heli gear, as I can't fly and play harp at the same time. The "tone comparison" thread has also been listened to with great interest (thanks Grey Owl), and mental notes have been taken.
"But I don't use mine so much because of practical/comfort reasons." - just goes to show you how much the "horses for courses" metaphor applies to our hobby. I personally like the way the comb feels on the tongue compared to the flat, rather "blocky" feeling BH MS. I also love the fact that the Crossover about 5mm or so thinner, as I have small hands and find cupping much easier. I've finally managed to get a harp to "cry" after 3 1/2 months of trying.
SuperBee - I reckon you probably have a point about part of the cost being due to the better factory setup. I don't have the 1896 to do a comparison, but could the machined tolerances on the Crossover reedplate also be smaller? ... or do all of them have the same reed plates? IDK, just a thought.
Over here, the 1896 can be had for the same price as the BH MS (about 33€), the Deluxe goes for about 49€, and the Crossover for 62€, depending on the supplier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the main differences are:
1896 - cover plates nailed (reed plates too?), corners not rounded.
MBD - screwed together, same comb as 1896 (pear wood), but with rounded tines and corners.
Crossover - more or less a MBD, but with a bamboo comb and different screws.
Have I missed anything worth noting? Are the dimensions of all 3 harps identical?
Thanks, and best of luck with your "rare birds". As you so succinctly put it - "And on down the rabbit hole."
GHF - any idea why it gets uncomfortable for you after a while? Big hands maybe? I played mine for 1 1/2 hours solid in the bathtub yesterday, but I suppose that's a bit different from playing a gig ;).
Killa - Nice to get feedback from a fellow ranter ;). I completely agree with you about tweaking. Soon as you can hold a relatively stable bend, you have a good enough platform to try gapping to facilitate it IMO. No way I could afford a full set of Crossovers ATM, and you have a good point about getting a couple of the same model in different keys, which is what I've more or less tried to do... apart from buying too many Seydel Blues Sessions at one time, but time may change that opinion. That said, I've been offered a full set of undoctored BH MS for 100€ including a Hohner case, so there are some things you just CAN'T say no to.
Well that turned into a longer post than I expected. Time to drive some old stuff to the dump and hope I get stuck in traffic so I get a chance to "blare like a mad farm goose".
Later
Fin
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Ian
300 posts
Feb 17, 2016
10:13 AM
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Hey man.
Your right with the difference between the harps. The one thing you missed is the tuning.
The crossover has a more compromised tuning than the MB or MB deluxe.
Basically that means it is set up a little bit more for single notes rather than chords.
Not really enough to notice massively, but it's there.
The crossover also has a slightly brighter tone than the deluxe or the regular MB.
Don't over think it though. It's a great harp and it's what alot of the pros play.
I have 4 and along with the deluxe and manjis it's one of my go to harps.
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SuperBee
3414 posts
Feb 17, 2016
12:01 PM
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Yes the 3 marine band models are exactly the same dimensions and reeds. As Ian said, crossover is tuned brighter and a different compromise to the other 2. I think the corners of the covers are closed more neatly too but i really haven't thought about that for a long time, it seems such a minor detail. I think all 4 of mine are in my gig set and have been since I bought them (2011 I think) so whatever I say about other harps...(I have over 50 now)...I obviously rate the crossovers when it comes to performance.
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Killa_Hertz
566 posts
Feb 17, 2016
7:15 PM
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I still can't decide what model i like best. Lol. Maybe i never will idk. Even the pros change models. But that has more to do with who's payin the bills.
If your handy you should try buying a 1896 marine band and customising it from the bottom up. It'll cost about the same as a crossover. And you ll have custom tuning, comb, covers, and you ll have done it yourself. It's not for everybody i guess. I do like the crossover tuning, but you can tune a 1896 like it if you really want to.
I was thinking of trying to tune a manji like aMB. Or tune it to 19 limit JI. I'm curious how it would sound.
Maybe also tune a MB like a Manji. Prolly would sound something like a slightly comprised Golden Melody.
Sorry I'm ranting.
You get the idea.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 17, 2016 7:16 PM
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Glass Harp Full
105 posts
Feb 17, 2016
10:10 PM
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Tiggertoo1962 - it sticks into the webbing on my left hand. I find this with most harps except Suzukis which have rounded corners. I do have big hands so maybe it's that or maybe I'm hold it too tightly.
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Tiggertoo1962
19 posts
Feb 23, 2016
10:52 AM
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GHF - have you tried the Seydel Blues Session or Session Steel? Although mine are not personally my favourite harps (that may change), they are also quality harps and are nicely rounded.
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Glass Harp Full
107 posts
Feb 23, 2016
2:07 PM
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Yes, I have one Blues Session. It's rounded and has larger holes, two features I like in harps. However, it's also quite thick and I find it a bit uncomfortable in my mouth. I'm starting to sound a bit picky.
I haven't played it for a while but in the spirit of the other thread I think I'll revisit it.
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Killa_Hertz
615 posts
Feb 23, 2016
4:41 PM
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I actually played SS for a little while. Then i fell for marine bands and i liked the thinner feel. But as ive started to play more TB i find myself picking up the Session Steels more than the MB. I feel like the covers make it easier to play with a TB embouchure. Ive also found that i will pick a specific model sometimes, based on what type of stuff in playing. The point is im not as hung up on what's THE MODEL harp anymore. Just play em all. Play what works.
Last few days ive been playing A harp because Ive gone back to the What I Say lesson of Gussows from tradebit. I found it a bit tricky months ago when i first tried it. Just on the TB jump 1 to 4. Which is now a non issue.
Lately my A of choice has been my Session Steel with swapped out Lee Oskar covers. But i found my crossover with the blue moon comb was easier to play this song with. It also sounds better. Probably because Adam uses a MB in the lesson. So it sounds closer to what he's playing. But also probably because the crossover tuning is just sweet. Somewhere in between the Manji n Marine Band i think. The marine band can be a lil harsh and shrill at times. The crossover takes the edges off.
Anyways I'm rambling.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Glass Harp Full
109 posts
Feb 23, 2016
11:18 PM
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Good point. I don't tongue back (yet) but I can see how the Seydels would work well for that.
I also agree that different harps sounds better for different songs. That's part of the fun of experimenting.
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