Truth2012
14 posts
Feb 19, 2016
12:09 PM
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I've been building up a repertoire of licks over the last 3 months of which I'm happy with.
Problem is I cannot seem to integrate them into my playing along to a backing track. Every time I try and put one in I seem to take too long thinking about it then I'm out of timing/rhythm, missed the slot
Is this normal? Will it just happen if I persist?
I've been playing for a year now so am I expecting too much?
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SuperBee
3422 posts
Feb 19, 2016
2:43 PM
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What are you doing? Are you playing a track, jamming along and then try to use a learned/remembered lick?
Best way for me is to only practice using that lick. Simplify. Learn one thing at a time. Own it so you don't have to think about it. Play a whole chorus using that one lick. Or if it's a turnaround lick, play a very simple lick for the rest of the chorus and then you can focus on fitting that turnaround lick where it has to go. Really break it down so you know it.
If you are playing random stuff and just thinking off the cuff 'I should use one of my licks here, now how's it go again? Oh yeah kinda like err...' It will take longer to get the hang of it I expect. So if you want to get the licks into your playing, focus on it and just practice it specifically for a while. Probably a couple of sessions you'll see a difference. Stick at it.
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Truth2012
15 posts
Feb 19, 2016
3:15 PM
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What your saying superbee makes sense.
I am jamming to a track, your right I'm just randomly playing to the progression then thinking 'right! Time for that lick!'
I think your right I should keep it simple but persist in playing that lick systematically until I nail it without really thinking too much.
Thanks
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Killa_Hertz
593 posts
Feb 19, 2016
4:17 PM
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Just my 2 cents here, but how long you have been playing is sort of irrelevant if you haven't been practicing with jam tracks the whole time.
If i play with no jam track i can spit out licks left and right. But when you have to think about how and when they fit. And your trying to time it right. Then ahhh missed it. Idk. What im saying is the jam tracks are kinda a skill in themselves. And it's near impossible if the licks aren't automatic.
Also i think of licks as sounds. Not notes/holes neccesarily. (Well i think of them as notes until they are muscle memory. Then i think of them as the sound. ) So when you hear the sound you want, you just do it.
So the key is to make them muscle memory. What i do is, i have an everchanging jam that i play. With no track. It's not just one jam there are a few with different feels, but you get the point. And i basically string together licks with a rythm. And i string together all the licks that fit to that rythm. Then your basically practicing multiple licks at once. That's how i get to where i can play licks without having to think about them.
Give it a try. I keep it interesting by changing up the order trying to make them all flow together. Sometimes i nail it, but then i forget what order i did them in. Or i forget lil nuances or freestyle parts i put in. Then new licks are learned and added. This throws everything off again.
If you haven't tried ronnie shellist's videos @ harmonica123.com ... give them a shot. I love those. Lotta great licks.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 19, 2016 4:18 PM
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Truth2012
16 posts
Feb 19, 2016
10:47 PM
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I think I get what your saying KH.
Some interesting points.
Thanks
Btw I have downloaded Ronnies licks, funny enough these are the ones I'm working on!
I play automatically a few Jon Gindick's licks as well as Adam's now without thinking, and looking back, what your both saying is pretty much how they have become muscle memory, I just never really thought how I achieved it! Lol
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MindTheGap
1185 posts
Feb 20, 2016
1:14 AM
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Truth2012 - I know what you mean exactly. I've not found an answer but there are some good suggestions above.
I think one of the problems is that there are some licks that are very distinctive (boom, boom for instance, and many others) but many are subtle variations of each other - often just rhythmic variations. Starting on a different beat of the bar for instance, or switching between straight and syncopated.
No magic ideas, but what I do is...
- Plan out solos and comping, at least in general, to go with specific songs. After a while I get to assocated the phrases/licks with a song.
- I keep a library of licks (short recordings) and associated them with things like the hole/holes they are based round. E.g. Ones that start or are based around the 1D. There's a whole family of standard, recognisable riffs based round the 4 and 5 draw for instance. Or the ones on the 3D and its bends. I've got them organised into boxes like that. I've also got sub-categories of riffs that I like over the IV chord or the V-IV section of a 12-bar.
What a geek eh?
- Associate the riff with the song where I first heard it. E.g. James Cotton's Lightning.
- Try not to play too many different riffs/patterns in one solo. Keep the variations down and focus on repeating the phrase, or maybe with slight variations.
- Play riffs and solos in my head without the harp. If I can hear the music in my head, I can play it.
Honestly I can't say any of this has solved the problem to my satisfaction, but at least I'm trying. When push comes to shove, I often fall back on playing bits of the blues scale or pentatonic scales with whatever comes to mind in the moment.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 20, 2016 1:33 AM
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Killa_Hertz
601 posts
Feb 20, 2016
7:06 AM
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I also find the hardest part is getting a good hook. If you can make up a good chord rythm to match the song ( one that is a bit more complex than a few in/out chords, but still a bit simple) the rest kinda falls into place.
Truth ... you'll get there. All you have to do is play the lick 14,000 more times and *poof* it's automatic. Lol
You ll get it. Others make it look so easy, but it takes alot of work. The trick for me is to make it into something that doesnt feel like prsctice. Just string all your licks together and that way you kinda practice them all at once. I find that in doing this i often come up with new licks and even new rythms to tie them together with. And ill record those so i don't forget. And on and on it goes.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Mirco
383 posts
Feb 20, 2016
1:54 PM
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SuperBee is right on. It's about repetition. Do you know Dave Barrett's idea of chorus forms? Use that idea to play the lick in different contexts. Get a lot of reps in. It'll be there for you when you're on the bandstand and you want to improvise. It's a pretty cool feeling, actually, when you play something and you realize that it's some lick you picked up like 6 months ago, just coming out.
Also, be aware of the "feel" of the lick. If you steal a lick from a shuffle, play it in your shuffle jam track. If you want to play that same lick in a rock beat or a slow blues, you'll have to tweak it. But first get used to playing it to a jam track of the same feel.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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MindTheGap
1194 posts
Feb 21, 2016
3:23 AM
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I've no doubt that repetition is necessary. But there are two different things here:
1. Learning a lick so that you can play it easily from memory.
2. Picking phrases to play, from your personal library of licks, when you are in the moment.
I expect some people can do the 2nd one - sounds like you can Mirco. Maybe they can do it easily, maybe it's about how your memory works. That's the one I have problems with.
My band's repertoire currently has 55 songs, and I don't have much trouble remembering specific parts I've either copied or worked out for each one. But if it's jamming to a free-form blues backing, I find I don't have immediate recall access to a wide variety of licks.
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 21, 2016 3:27 AM
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Killa_Hertz
607 posts
Feb 21, 2016
5:30 AM
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Mtg your right. I kinda lost sight of the real question. However i think the two are tied together. To be able to play a lick in the right spot it has to be muscle memory first.
I think the rest is about being in the zone. If your thinking with the wrong part of your brain it just won't happen. If your trying to sit and think .. " gee what can i play here. " your dead in the water because the beat will always be getting away from you. And the farther the track goes the more you feel like it's getting away. Train wreck.
If you just play something simple that fits until your really feeling the beat. Come up with a good chord hook. Then you can slowly make it more complicated and then fit those big licks in. But you have to kinda be one with the beat n just feel where itll fit. You ll just know which spot of which cord to slip it in. You have to get in touch with you creative brain, i guess. If that makes any sense.
Also im not great at this myself. So i don't wanna come off like the authority. But i feel like when i hit a good jam that this is the key.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 21, 2016 5:37 AM
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MindTheGap
1197 posts
Feb 21, 2016
5:56 AM
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I do think you're quite right. This is how I've heard it described by people that can do it. It's how to cultivate it - that's the question. If it's a case of doing the repetition thing, and one day it starts to gel - that's fine. But what if it's something else?
I always like to hear from people who had trouble doing a thing, then worked out how to do it.
I remember my frustration trying to learn the two-hole shake. All I found were videos by people who could do it already: 'look, here's me playing it slowly', then hey presto, 'look, here's me doing it fast and perfectly'. Well, to quote Saul Goodman: hooray for you! :) Eventually I worked out a way, and did indeed involve playing slowly, but not only that.
I'm inspired actually, by frustration, to follow one avenue I mentioned above more diligently, and that's to think of solos without actually playing the harp.
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 21, 2016 6:01 AM
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MindTheGap
1199 posts
Feb 21, 2016
12:10 PM
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OK, I wasn't clear. I mean I do want to hear how someone has learnt to do a thing, not just be shown the result.
EDIT: Strange, I was responding to Superbee's comment. But it seems to have disappeared. And not be in spam either. Ah well, that's what I meant anyway.
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 21, 2016 12:22 PM
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SuperBee
3430 posts
Feb 21, 2016
1:06 PM
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I think for sure, the ability to construct interesting improvised solos from memorised licks is not gonna fall into your lap. It's gonna require you to practice a lot. And you can approach it in different ways, but understanding the form may be one of the better ways to go about it. Probably better than simply remembering a few choruses and inserting them every time you play. That's just like learning someone else's song really.
I do that a lot, as a result of playing in a band before I'd learned to play much. I had to learn repertoire so I just copied the parts. On reflection, it's not the best way.
part is memory. I don't care if it's licks or parts of scales or melodies or motifs...whatever you want to call the things you memorise. You have probably already memorised a bunch of stuff, and you pull it out of your memory and use it in the appropriate places in the songs for which you associate those memories. And there are triggers in the song which are your cues. And you probably know that sometimes there is a part of the thing you know well but can't pull it out on its own...you have to play the bit that leads up to it then it comes out no problem. You can see the same happen with people memorising lyrics.
That's one way that memory works. It uses a structure.
So what if you develop your understanding of the structure and memorise shorter chains. You get a much more flexible organisation of your memories, which you can apply more readily.
In short it's not so much what you commit to memory, but how you commit to memory.
It's the associations you make which determine your ability to recall.
So if you hear something you like, whether it's something you made up or heard someone play, you can choose to memorise it in a specific place, or memorise it in a few different ways. The more ways in which you memorise it, the more ways you will be able to apply it.
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SuperBee
3431 posts
Feb 21, 2016
1:30 PM
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Of course...this approach to improvisation through 'lick based learning' is not without critics.
Some advocate an approach based more on a deeper understanding of melody, scales and musical principles. Personally I think that is probably a more fulfilling way to go, but the lick memory approach will give results within its limits
Oh yes MTG, I decided my post was less helpful than I'd like so I took it down and replaced with a more developed idea which I hope is a better demonstration of how the idea works.
My post above should be taken in context with my first post in the thread, and relates to the method Dave Barrett has for breaking down the construction of solos into component parts. The reason this works is because of how it interacts with the process of memorisation and recall. His method is not a fanciful construction; it is based on analysis of many solos to discover the common features and variations.
You may doubt the truth of what he claims about the finite number of structural variations. I did, on a gut level But recently I've understood why that is. In many solos which incorporate 'fills', the fill can overshadow the basic lick used to construct the solo, and it gives the impression of a kind of randomness. But 'fills' are a different animal. They are not the main game.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 21, 2016 1:42 PM
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Killa_Hertz
609 posts
Feb 21, 2016
4:25 PM
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That was pretty good Bee.
The part about learning sort chains and in different ways. That's why i take small licks and chain them together. N then mix them up. So you start with small blocks n you figure out which other licks can lead up to them and which licks can lead to others. And then once you get a bunch of chunks linked well and you can go thru it a few times, switch it around and find different combinations.
Then there are always fills that just come out sometimes. Aswell as new licks. If they are Any good i record em. Also licks come out with variations while i play. Either by accident or by necessity to make it fit.
Like you said sometimes if you want a lick you need to first play what leads up to it. But Conversly when u play a lick you also have choices that link up after it. So the more you change things around n know what works, the more choices you have.
I agree about what you said ... " Some advocate an approach based more on a deeper understanding of melody, scales and musical principles." That kinda were my whole harp books thread came in.
Anyways MTG that one might be ok for the sticky. There was some ok info in there. But definatly Bees posts in beginner about theory. They were good.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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MindTheGap
1200 posts
Feb 21, 2016
11:54 PM
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Yes that's useful. I'm persuaded that studying the form is a good thing to try.
In fact, on reflection, identifying licks, phrases, moves, motifs IS part of studying the form. It's part of what makes it sound like blues harp and not, say, a baroque minuet.
I've read this approach criticised, I guess by people who feel that the only authentic music is what tumbles out unbidden.
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Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 22, 2016 12:03 AM
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