Gary 62
135 posts
Apr 09, 2016
8:21 AM
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Ok i started out the first few months lip pursing everything because i never even knew what TB was. Then i saw some videos of other players teaching stuff and recommending it so i have been into that and playing scales and riffs with it for months. To me it's more versatile than LP and sounds thicker or richer. The downside to me is when you wail on the 4 hole bend say for example, TB doesn't wail the way LP does.
So anyway i find myself in that same old dilemma about "what technique should i use to play this?"
Also it can feel a bit awkward to switch say in the middle of a run or something. That makes me think of 100% TBers like Dennis Gruenling and people like that and i wonder whether i should just TB everything? Problem is the blow bends feel awkward with TB.
It's an old subject i know but i've just got to that point in my playing where the two techniques seem to be vying with each other for dominance in my playing and i am not sure which way to lean towards.
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SuperBee
3582 posts
Apr 09, 2016
8:36 AM
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I dunno about the wailing. Maybe I've just forgotten.
Blow bends...I do them all tongue blocked and sometimes now I think it's the most bestest part of my game...that's probably just because I thought I could never get the hang of it (regardless of embouchure), but then I did, and tb to boot. So I'm really happy about that.
I do have trouble switching embouchure and for that reason I've given up on OB 4 and 5 for now...and I'm working on chromatic anyway. I'm a little bit hooked on those chromatic moves...
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to play lipped again and so I mess with it but I just end up tb again within a few minutes.
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Gary 62
136 posts
Apr 09, 2016
8:45 AM
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Thanks Bee. I've given OB's up entirely as i feel like Ronnie Shellist says in that video that they're detracting from the music i'm playing. Sometime in the future i'll get a chromatic if i want all the notes.
Yeah the wailing bends; It's because lip pursing gives you a thinner more high end sound and that really seems to wail whereas the TB sound seems fuller, thicker more mellow even? Hard to describe.
I think TB seems much more versatile. You can imitate it a bit by opening your embouchure when playing on the low holes to mix chords and single notes but to me it doesn't have the same sound. Though Sonny Terry played LP so... I wouldn't have expected that.
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MindTheGap
1438 posts
Apr 09, 2016
9:16 AM
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I'm very swayed by whatever I'm listening to. So last week when I was studying that John Nemeth piece, and I know for a fact he doesn't TB single notes - I loved that sharp single-note sound.
Then this week when I've been doing the stuff with that Joyo pedal, and comparing to other peoples 'listen to my awesome mic/amp' demos, they mostly Pull and Slap every note to make it do that thing.
I like them both.
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2chops
505 posts
Apr 09, 2016
10:32 AM
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I do both these days. When I took up the harp in earnest 6 years ago after a long layoff, I LPed only. Then when I started to work on learning to play my chroms, I quickly found that TB is THE way to go. The residual effect is that I started defaulting to TB when I would play my short harps. The deeper tone was very noticeable. But...
When I do my solo thing, I sing also. And I tend to get toungue tied when starting the next line after a harp run. So now I mostly LP when in OMB mode. Also...
When playing with my band, a lot of the songs just sound better when I LP. Again, the cut of the embouchure just seems to fit better. So I use both embouchures about 50/50 when with the guys. So for me, it all boils down to what sound fits a song best according to my ear. Or if I have to do the vocals.
My 2 yen.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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Gary 62
137 posts
Apr 09, 2016
11:12 AM
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Great points guys and this is what i wanted to hear, other folks points of view regarding their own playing. I love the TB but i miss the shrill over the top rip your ears off high end you can get lip pursed on some bent notes. But the things you can do with TB are amazing. I especially like the playing a single note at the same time you're slapping a chord down. It makes it much more funky and bluesy to play a melody like that with that grit and oomph behind it rather than as single notes which can sound very plain and undecorated at times. A bit too vanilla if you will.
I also like the way TB single note lines you can play very cleanly, with the tongue blocking out any, or at least most, of any bleed in from adjacent holes. I find that very hard to do LP unless you really concentrate on a thinner puckering of the lips to avoid that bleed in from the adjacent holes.
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MindTheGap
1441 posts
Apr 09, 2016
11:20 AM
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Gary - I don't know about your last point. Your really shouldn't have to pucker like that to get single notes very clean. Alarm bells!
There's often a flurry of discussion on the MF (main forum) where people make the point that they are 'Lip Blocking' to distinguish from a pucker. Because a tense, thinning pucker is seen as BAD for tone (gasp), unless of course your are intentionally going for shrill tone, Sonny Terry style.
Characteristics are that your lips are relaxed, and you just use the flesh of the lips to naturally block adjacent holes. Goodness knows how it actually works, but it does. The harp is deep in the mouth, almost as deep as TBing in fact.
Some assert that you need to tilt the harp up to achieve this, I don't find that myself and I don't think there's anything to that. Some pros do, and there some don't. There's examples of players that people admire tilting the harp down, so pinches of salt to the ready.
I remember my son when he started to learn, complaining of a achy/tense face like you'd get if you'd been smiling for a long time.
It may be I've misunderstood you, in which case we can switch off the alarm bells.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 09, 2016 11:27 AM
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2chops
506 posts
Apr 09, 2016
11:38 AM
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I will add this. About a year ago I began to learn my way around the top end of the harp. And I found that for me, TB makes it happen much easier. Especially with higher keyed harps. Think C-F.
My rabbit trail brain forgot to mention this in my previous post. Regarding the 4 hole bends, I too find it much easier to wail there with the LP embouchure at this point in my playing. But as with all things that I venture into, I'm confident that this too will improve with time. I am a determined sort.
Keep at it guys. We'll all get "there" eventually.
Edited for clarity.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Apr 09, 2016 11:39 AM
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MindTheGap
1442 posts
Apr 09, 2016
11:48 AM
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Thanks 2chops.
If there's one thing I'd like from the beginner's forum it's to keep it real around the embouchure issue. There's good reasons for using either, including what works for you.
Hopefully I've remembered this right, but a while ago Winslow put up some examples of notes played with different embouchures, but without charaterstic effects like slaps or articulation, to demonstrate that he (and so we) could get the same rich timbre with all of them. As I remember, some people did correctly identify the embouchures but by using deductions. The point is that timbre alone is not a great reason for choosing one or the other.
My own view is that if I don't do both, then I'm missing out. I'd even say that if I were not to prepared to shift embouchure during phrases, I'd be missing out. Making particular leaps by switching between LP and TB is much more assured by doing it. What I don't do is corner switching, and I KNOW I'm missing out there.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 09, 2016 11:57 AM
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Gary 62
138 posts
Apr 09, 2016
12:14 PM
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MTG: No i can get good tone with LP, although i do like that Sonny Terry sound as well. Almost as good as TB but i'm talking about when i'm playing up a scale at speed or down it it's very easy to have bleed in from an adjacent hole if i don't adjust my embouchure to eliminate that. I find TB keeps everything cleaner and more defined.
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MindTheGap
1443 posts
Apr 09, 2016
12:28 PM
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Good. So I did misunderstand! There you go. I tend to uses LP for scale runs myself, although I can see that navigation can be more sure-footed with your tongue on the harp.
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2chops
507 posts
Apr 09, 2016
12:36 PM
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MTG...I have a bit of a time with corner switching too. But then again I don't really work on it at present. When I TB I am a bit of an odd duck. I have my tongue on the right side of my mouth and play through the left corner. It just made sense to me. Mainly playing on holes 1-6, with a lot of it being on 1-3, it just made sense technique wise. Why hang my tongue off the end of the harp when on the first couple of holes when you could keep it on there in the first place. To each his own.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Apr 09, 2016 12:36 PM
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Killa_Hertz
980 posts
Apr 09, 2016
12:59 PM
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I use both. I use LP on 1 & 2 always. But other than that it's kinda best trick for the job. There are things that cant be done with both. So i think you should learn to be relatively proficient with both.
Im with you on the heavy bends gary. I pretty much bend everything LP. I sometimes bend tb, but rarely. Ive gotten pretty good at being able to switch in the middle of a run.
I think if you tb all the time you lose the impact of the heavier fuller slap sounds and other great sounds tb has to offer. I tend to prefer to lean on the LP primarily and throw the TB in to give contrast. When you play lp, even a simple tb lick can really change things up.
Plus TB is good for fast jumps. I will sometimes play lp down on the 1,2 .. slap my tongue down and instantly jump up to 456.
Ive tried to adopt Ronnie Shellists playing style. It seems to suit my taste pretty well.
I would like to get better at TB bends weather i use them or not. It's a nice trick to have in the bag.
As MTG said .. it depends on what im playing also. What ive been talking about so far is playing acoustic and clean amped. When playing amped dirty i tend to play alot more TB because of THAT sound. So....
In short Learn both WELL.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 09, 2016 1:23 PM
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Gary 62
139 posts
Apr 09, 2016
12:59 PM
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2 chops: I do that a lot as well if i'm playing hole 1 and sometimes 2. As you say it seems to make more sense when you're right at the limit of the harp there. I didn't know they called it that though!
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Killa_Hertz
981 posts
Apr 09, 2016
1:17 PM
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MTG ... corner switching is also something i need to work on. Hense the playing 1,2 only LP. But i dont feel that's TOO big of a miss out, because 1,2 is fatter already. So idk, but i still should learn it.
@ GARY the "imitate" tb sound you refer to on the low end. For me I use that ALOT. And i dont feel that is imitating tb. I feel it is its own sound entirely. And i actually view that sound as something TB CANT DO. I was actually going to post the video where adam teaches this. Its a great sound that idk what i would do without.
Because with TB slap you get the holes before the single note(if you play out of the right side) getting the chord when playing the 5th. With the LP technique you get one on either side actually getting the chord when playing the third. Its tough to imitate that with TB. I think i said that right. But i love that technique.
Edit: Good point 2chops.... i tried it, but it never felt right ... idk why.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 09, 2016 1:19 PM
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Killa_Hertz
982 posts
Apr 09, 2016
1:33 PM
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Thats funny that you find scale runs easier TB. I find the exact oposite. I think wuth more practice youll find LP may be faster. I think you really have to build it into muscle memory.
For instance i can grab a harp, close my eyes, play 4 draw. I just know where it is. It seems like your feeling your way around still. I could be wrong.
Sorry for all the posts. There was alot of stuff to comment on up there. Lol.
The best way to describe a good pucker embouchure IMO. (And i hate to do it this way, As i dint want to advocate smoking anything, but ....)
But the LP embouchure is similar to smoking the last bit of a "rolled cigarette". If you put your two fingers like your pinching it, you CANT use the front of your lips cus youll burn em. So you have to kinda do "kissy face/duck lips" and push your fingers into the wet part of your lips. But you dont want to be forcing it, you can actually have a wider hole in there than you would think. Does that make sense? Hope it wasnt too .. well.... Its the best way I can describe it.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 09, 2016 1:37 PM
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Gary 62
140 posts
Apr 09, 2016
1:38 PM
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Killa: "Because with TB slap you get the holes before the single note(if you play out of the right side) getting the chord when playing the 5th. With the LP technique you get one on either side actually getting the chord when playing the third. Its tough to imitate that with TB. I think i said that right. But i love that technique."
Yeah it doesn't match it exactly but i'm thinking on that video where Adam is playing the 2D then opening the embouchure to get the first 3 hole blow chord and alternating that. Then he tells us how Dennis Gruenling does that TB'd. It doesn't sound exactly the same but it's pretty close. I like the TB version of it though as you can get more of that thwack (for want of a better word!) into it.
And your explanation about the pucker makes perfect sense!
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Apr 09, 2016 1:42 PM
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SuperBee
3584 posts
Apr 09, 2016
2:59 PM
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Let me see...if I tongue blocked to the right, and I was playing slaps on hole three draw of my c harp...
I'd play b, d, f, and slap it down to b
So that's like an augmented b chord or a partial G7
If I play out the right side I play d g b, which is a major triad of the G chord. There's a reasonable difference to playing left or right block. What if you try it on hole 5 draw...left you play f, a, b. Right you play b, d, f.
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Killa_Hertz
984 posts
Apr 09, 2016
5:14 PM
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@Gary ... its not supposed to sound the same. Tongue slap is tongue slap. This is more synchopated backbeat type of thing. And i can get a much better sounding backing chord this way because i can do it faster. Plus as i said because of the note in the chord that the single note is being played is the center note of the three, its an entirely different feel.
@Bee. What im talking about is:
Eg. Holes 345
LP single note 4draw widen to chord 345
TB Single note 4draw pull tongue up to chord 234.
So with the single note being the same you get two entirely different things happening.
I would normally use this technique with the 2 draw, but i changed it to 4 to make the point.
But now that we are talking 2 draw my next point emerges.
2Draw LP open 123chord
2draw TB right 12notes
2draw tb left 234 chord.
So it's totally different.
To imitate this TB you would have to lift your tongue narrow a hole on one side and add a hole on the other. That's just crazy talk.
So like I'm saying this is its own sound which i find EXTREMELY useful. I use it a ton. Hope i explained it right.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 09, 2016 5:18 PM
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SuperBee
3586 posts
Apr 10, 2016
3:40 AM
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Yeah I was commenting on 2chops comments about routinely playing out the left side. My point is that the chordal effects of trad tb don't really work on the draw chords that way. Or at least, they're not the same chords
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2chops
508 posts
Apr 10, 2016
4:47 AM
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Bee...You're right about the chords and the way I TB. Because of that, I have a lot going on when I play. I plan ahead a lot in the course of a song for what chords I want to play and for slaps and so on. So I'll end up switching quickly from TB to LP and back. Or after the vocal line, just doing my response LP so I can do whatever chordal effect I want to do. If someone could see what my tongue is doing when I play, it would look like hockey goaly during a 5 on 3 power play. Back and forth, back and forth...
I really like the sound of note bleeding. You know, playing a clean single hole and then letting the hole next to it bleed in to get that growling effect. I find this to be much easier to control while doing LP. And to my ear it sounds better. When I was a lad and was taking trombone lessons, the instructor used to keep telling me I had flexible lips and had to learn to control them. (Sounds odd, but nothing kinky going on there). So that flexibility comes I'm handy on the harp.
I had better end this post before it fly's off in an odd direction.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Apr 10, 2016 4:48 AM
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Killa_Hertz
989 posts
Apr 10, 2016
7:13 AM
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2 chops .. goalie during a powerplay ... thats funny.
2chops/Bee. ... yea i guess i never thought that mainly TB ing Left would cause that problem.
Idk what the difference is. But I get tongue tied when i try left TB. It feels like I'm trying to play with a wad of gum in my mouth. I'm sure with practice i could get it. But it seems that the only real advantage to beng able to switch is hitting the 1,2 draw.
It is funny though because i can tongue warble just fine. So idk. Maybe im just wierd.
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SuperBee
3588 posts
Apr 10, 2016
7:56 PM
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In the intro to 'blues with a feeling' little Walter pulls a switch...I think from 3 on left to 8 out the right..it's been a while since I thought about it and I can't get a harp out here to check...but check out what he does moving from the 9th to 10th measure...pretty sure there's a switch involved..
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isaacullah
3165 posts
Apr 12, 2016
2:21 PM
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Jumping in here a little late, but back to the OP's question, my suggestion is to initially try to learn them both "equally". When you practice something (a scale, a lick, etc.) try doing it both TB and LB. Try to put the effort in to do BOTH styles correctly (read up on this, watch videos etc.). As you progress, pay very close attention both with your ears and with your body (lips, tongue, throat, etc.). Hear and feel what each technique offers in terms of sounds and approaches. Try to identify how those things overlap with each other, and where they don't (i.e., where one technique offers something the other does not). While doing that, think of the music that you want to be playing. Where does that music fit into that mental diagram of what both techniques offer? If it's in the middle, then choose whatever feels best to you. If, however, your musical ideal is to one side or the other, consider more fully embracing that embouchure over the other.
My point in all this is that when faced with two options it's never best to go full bore down one road with out at least exploring the other. You should give them both a fair shake. And in doing so, you will learn more about yourself as a player, where you want to go, and how to get there.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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SuperBee
3599 posts
Apr 12, 2016
2:29 PM
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The wailing question is bothering me. Maybe I have forgotten how to do it or even what it sounds like...
I'd like to hear an example of exemplary 4 draw wailing. I tried it both ways and I can't really pick the difference but I suspect I've been tongue blocking so long that When I play lipped, I just play the same way except with my tongue off the harp.
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Gary 62
141 posts
Apr 12, 2016
5:30 PM
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Bee: I think it's just because you maybe don't have as much of the harp in your mouth with LP as compared to TB the pitch seems quite a bit more trebly and when you bend it seems a more wailing high pitched sound. Although on practicing it today i don't notice it as much. Maybe i'm improving and getting more comfortable with TB, i don't know. One area i definitely feel much better LP is on blow bends. I can blow bend great LP but not very good at all TB. It's as if the tongue contacting the harp is stopping me getting my embouchure in a good position to get both bent notes in hole 10 for example.
This is a totally off topic bit at the bottom i'm adding to see if anyone has any suggestions because i'm slowly being driven mad!! Every time i watch a video on YT it stops cuts out and a black screen comes up with white writing saying "An Error Occurred Please Try Again Later". I've tried everything and no joy. Someone online suggested this is Google getting back at people getting around YT ad's with an adblocker. I hasten to add i don't know that to be true, i'm just going by reading what someone else said online somewhere. But i haven't a clue what's really causing it. I contacted Google/YT but they get so many people asking stuff they'll probably never reply.
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