Hey all, so after jamming a few times with a guitar playing friend, I realised that when we play over a blues backing track, I tend to play very "freestyle", not really paying attention to the structure of the 12-bar blues and the current chord. I'm trying to troubleshoot this, but I find it very difficult to count or keep track of which bar I am at when playing. So here are my questions:
1. How do you keep track of "where you are at"? Do you really count the bars? And if you don't, did you start with this method until it became second nature?
2. I know that the 2 draw is the root note of the chord and that it sounds good over the I chord. I think four blow should be played over the IV chord and four draw over the V chord. How important is that knowledge? Should one / a beginner only play licks with those notes over the corresponding chords?
I hope someone can help me, Cheers!
Last Edited by SkullKid on Jul 17, 2017 1:11 PM
First of all, listen to a lot of blues. That's about the first advice I got when I started. To paraphrase a quote from SuperBee from a long ago thread, "you have to get it in your bones." As you listen, count out the changes. Time on task. I still do that...listen to blues, Learn the language. ---------- Phil Pennington
Yeah I've done a fair bit of that. And I still do when I'm learning songs at times, to understand what I'm hearing.
I listened to a lot of blues records from since I was around 16 (I'm 53), and I felt like I could 'feel' the changes even before I knew what 'changed'. I didn't start learning the chords until I was quite a bit older. Counting is cool though, counting a triplet feel, like in a 12/8 slow blues, or counting a swing feel or a straight feel, 1/8 notes, 1/16 notes (1 e and a 2 e and a) it's all the stuff. Anyway, I sure don't count all the time, or even much of the time, but sometimes I do. I did it a lot during a certain phase, and if I'm struggling to understand something I go back to counting and that will often help me 'get it'. Also, a lot of 12 bar patterns are variations. Some are 11 bars, or 11 and 1/2, some have a 'quick IV', some have a 2 5 1 substitution for the 5 4 1, some hang on the I chord. Etc. there are a lot of variations. Sometimes it's like there are more songs that vary the form than there are those that use the so called standard pattern
Now, the thing you said about root notes is essentially correct, but not rigorously necesssary. It's good to resolve to a root note but blues is often a call and response type of thing, tension and release. And the resolution to the root is pretty much 'release' of tension. So don't forget about the other chord tones, the 3rd 5th and flat 7th in the case of a dom7 chord for instance. And the pentatonic scales, major and minor are very handy. If you combine a knowledge and familiarity of pentatonics with knowledge and familiarity of chord tones and understand the changes you can do a lot of cool-sounding stuff. Or you can copy songs, learn licks and phrases that way. Or combine a number of methods
I think it's good to focus on things, break it down and spend time on specific things, you know, maybe a little block of time working pentatonic scales every day for 5 of 10 or 15 minutes. That kind of thing. And counting is that kind of thing too. You don't want to spend your life doing it but if you want to learn s song, start out counting it and digging wherevthr changes are and how thevriffs work with the count etc. Gradually you start to build up your knowledge and skill and stay interested. Just my thoughts early in the morning. There's a lot of approaches you can take.
Yes, if you are getting lost then count exactly in the way that Superbee says. Hopefully after some time, you will feel it and not need to count - or do a hybrid.
Personally, I don't count on standard-pattern blues (12 bar, 8 bar), I do that by feel. But when we do some non-standard patterns I still do count. 'King Bee' is a good example that has extra bars thrown in. I'm drumming currently, and one of the key jobs of the drummer is to signal the changes to the rest of the band so they don't get lost. If you are playing with just a guitarist, you might expect them to do a similar job.
Re your 2nd question about root notes and chords. My observation is that you (the harp player) can make a conscious choice to EITHER play with the changes like you say, or stick to your one scale. A well-known point about the blues scale is that it fits over the all the chords. That's why you can get away with 'freestyling'. If you are playing solo, you tend to want to highlight the chord changes on the harp, but if playing with the band it can be nice not to - i.e. the band changes 'around you'.
Given that the extremes are to either 1) stick to one scale 2) stick to chord tones from each chord during changes, there is a middle ground where you can establish the change by playing the root note (or some other clear chord tone) on each change, but then play notes taken from, say, the blues scale for the rest of your phrases. This is a very common style you'll hear on records all the time.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 17, 2017 11:28 PM
...the other big thing is of course to play something on the turnaround leading into the next 12 bar round. Even the most inventive players often play something pretty clichéd for these - and they sound great. So, you don't have to be inventive either - just copy a load of them from records and deploy them at will.
It's very common to play just chord tones for the final V chord (if there is one) and that really hammers home the change. In 2nd position this does mean precise bending, but it's worth it.
This is bread and butter stuff. If anyone is lost, it means they'll only be lost for a max of 12 bars.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 18, 2017 1:02 AM
'1. How do you keep track of "where you are at"? Do you really count the bars? And if you don't, did you start with this method until it became second nature?'
I only count bars when I'm figuring out something, never (or at least, very rarely) when I'm playing. Usually, the form runs along in the back of my mind. I've spent over fifty years comping on tunes so playing the form is like breathing now.
'2. I know that the 2 draw is the root note of the chord and that it sounds good over the I chord. I think four blow should be played over the IV chord and four draw over the V chord. How important is that knowledge? Should one / a beginner only play licks with those notes over the corresponding chords?'
Ideally, a blues player should be able to play all the notes of each chord in the form, not just the roots. That doesn't mean that you only play those notes, but you should know how whatever you play relates to the chord you're playing it over.
Re counting and staying on track: One of the pitfalls I've observed in others and experienced myself is practising along to backing tracks then it not working out when playing live.
Quite often, when we are starting out learning a new song, band members turn up having practised at home and fail to stay on track - to their surprise. This seems particularly true if it's one of their fav songs and they've been listening to it for many years!
Lesser forms of failure include being hesitant about the start, stops, changes and ending. Maybe not 'wrong' but definitely not good. It sounds feeble.
It's much easier to follow a backing track than to lead the music yourself. That hits in other areas too - like making the groove vs playing along with the groove.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 20, 2017 1:44 AM
You can remember things 'wrong' I think perhaps especially when you have been listening for years. At some point perhaps you stop listening to the actual sound and listen to your memory instead.
Rolling and Tumbling has proved a very interesting exercise to get together. For a while I took to watching the guitarist' left hand because I couldn't predict within a beat, when he would go to the riff. We were really bad at this song. In practice it might seem ok but then on stage it was a train wreck. I think it's been quite important in our development as a band.
I could play along with baby face Leroy no problem. I knew that record. I knew I was playing it 'right' because I fit the record. Same as I knew I played 'baby please don't go' to fit the muddy waters record. But playing with the band was different and unless I could point out why it was different to the record I better just listen to what they were doing and make sure I fit in. It wSnt just me. The guitarist had grown up listening to I don't know, some rock act, Clapton or cream or the allmans, I don't know. Anyway, he wasn't playing what I was playing and it took a lot of de-conditioning to break down the old habits and start listening to what we wanted to put over. As it turned out, it's mainly about the harp and guitar being in line, the drums and the bass are always within half a beat.
Yes, I agree Rolling and Tumbling is a good example - with the extra bars depending on which version you are listening to. Even more so if you're each used to a different version!
We had fun with 'born under a bad sign'. I remember playing the intro round and round, while the singer tried to work out when to come in - like trying to jump on a moving train. In the end I wrote out a lead sheet with the lyrics shown against the beats in the bar.
Point is, counting solved the problem when 'feel' let us down.
I guess I will start by including counting and listening to more blues into my practice. I can imagine that it will become second nature in time, just as you guys mentioned.
I will also play very simple stuff over each chord, just to get the feeling, as the sax-guy suggested (thanks, timeistight).
I'm not quite sure I know what chord notes and the pentatonic scales are, but I have already found good sites on the internet, which I will work through. If any questions remain, I'll answer them here, since you are always so helpful!
Thanks again! Skull
PS: Interesting stuff about playing in a band @ SuperBee & MindTheGap. I will think about the things you said when I jam with some friends next time!
"I'm not quite sure I know what chord notes [...] are"
We can fix that right here. In second position, the root of the I chord is draw 2, blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9. The 3rd of the I chord is draw 3, draw 7 and blow 10 half-step bend. The 5th is draw 1, draw 4 and draw 7. The b7th is draw 2 whole-step bend, draw 5 and draw 9.
The root of the IV chord is blow 1, blow 4, blow 7 and blow 10. The 3rd of the IV chord is blow 2, blow 5 and blow 8. The 5th of the IV chord is draw 2, blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9. The b7th of IV chord is draw 3 half-step bend, 6 overblow and blow 10 whole-step bend.
The root of the V chord is draw 1, draw 4 and draw 8. The 3rd of the V chord is draw 2 half-step bend, 5 overblow and hole 9 half-step bend. The 5th of the V chord is draw 3 whole-step bend, draw 6 and draw 10. And, finally, the b7th of the V chord is blow 1, blow 4, blow 7 and blow 10.
The best way to internalize a form is to play it a lot. When you listen to music, try to hear where the chords change. If you can get chord charts, follow them along while you listen. When you're jamming with your guitar player friend, spend lots of time backing him up. Turn off the backing track yourself and try to keep the form and the groove together on your own. At jams, you need to be able to spell out the form of your song to the band and cue them with hand signs while you play and sing.
David Barrett has a great book called Blues Harmonica Accompaniment Playing that's full of great comping ideas.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 24, 2017 1:38 PM
Thanks a lot, timesistight. I must admit that I don't know what "the 3rd of the chord, the 5th of the chord, the b7th" of the chord means. I assume those are the notes that sound good over said chords? Sorry I am a complete beginner when it comes to music theory. :x
That's okay, SkullKid; I'll try to explain without getting too technical.
Chords are made from scales. Take, for example, the major scale: do, re, mi fa, so, la, ti, do. If you want to make chords from that scale, you start on any note (which will be the root note of that chord) and then add every second note until you have as many as you want. To make a I chord you start on do, skip re, add mi, skip fa, and add so: do-mi-so. We call do the root, mi the third, and so the fifth.
To make a IV chord, start on fa (because it's the fourth note in the scale), skip so, add la, skip ti, and add do: fa-la-do. We call fa the root, la the third, and do the fifth.
To make a V chord, start on so (because it's the fifth note in the scale) skip la, add ti, skip do, and add re. We call so the root, ti the third, and re the fifth.
In blues we usually add another note, the flat seventh (b7), to each chord. We call it the b7 because it is one half step below the usual seventh note (ti) of the major scale.
I know that's a lot to take in all at once. Let me know if there's anything there you don't understand.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 23, 2017 12:31 PM
It's actually pretty logical, thanks for your explanation! So next time when I'm playing with a friend or to a backing track, I will have an idea about what to play!
I find the 12 bar blues structure itself a great guide. You can hear the changes and I can often feel what it needs. It sort of speaks to you. You can feel it coming. As has been said, listening to a lot of blues and absorbing the rhythms and changes is good. When "Harp Attack" came out I played that CD (may have been cassette back then) over and over. Sometimes (often) I don't play an instrument to the songs I'm listening to, or at times backing tracks. I hum or sing or make sounds like an instrument to the changes or even the whole song.
I find singing helps my harp playing as far as call and response or hitting the changes. The harp is sort of like vocals. So I'll sometimes sing through the progression. Just made up words or sounds. Even whistling.
But I'm still learning a lot. Well, re-learning. ---------- Tommy
Adam's videos are among the best for learning the structure of the 12 bar blues and starting to feel it. But you really need to do a lot of listening and counting along. There are 3 videos by Gussow. Here's the first:
That's great advice, Tommy! Humming to the track and the changes really helps to get the feeling. I also spent some quality time just listening to the 12 bar blues structure over and over again until I was hypnotised. :)
Mirco, thanks for the advice. I already know those videos, but as you said, they are great indeed!
