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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
positions
positions
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johan d
76 posts
Sep 04, 2017
10:37 PM
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- Why do we play in different positions? Is it because of the key signature of the song?
- What if we found and picked a suitable position, where most notes appear on a diatonic harp, is it a matter of choosing the right harp to match the pitch, and play along with the song.
I ask this because I have a song that has 3 sharps as keysignature, and found out most notes can be played as I use 10th position. I thought only the first 5 positions were used frequently.
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johan d
77 posts
Sep 04, 2017
11:55 PM
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I need: A B C# D E F# G#
So 10the position is most obvious no?
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SuperBee
4928 posts
Sep 05, 2017
7:20 AM
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Why not 1st position on an A harp? Seems a lot easier than 10th.
10th would be like playing Eb on a C harp.
That scale you have posted is A major.
To play in 10th you would use an F harp.
10th is a pretty odd choice for diatonic. Your root note/tonic would be the 4 overblow.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 06, 2017 2:39 PM
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johan d
79 posts
Sep 05, 2017
1:06 PM
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according to this layout it all came together, starting on the 7 blow.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gZ44nlo4KNgCmIFx1
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SuperBee
4931 posts
Sep 05, 2017
1:39 PM
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That shows a blow bend on the 8 is the 1st note in the scale
It shows 7 blow is the 6th.
The notes you have posted above constitute an A major scale.
Your diagram shows the scale degrees of 10th position.
If you play a C harp in 10th, you are playing in Eb. The 8 blow is E. if you bend it you get Eb. The only other place you get Eb on a C harp is overblow 4 and overblow 1.
However, you want A major, which is A B C# D E F# G# A
To play key of A in 10th, by definition of what is 10th position, you use an F harp.
Use an A harp in 1st position. That will be extraordinarily easier. The notes on an A harp are
A B C# D E F# G#
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 06, 2017 2:40 PM
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SuperBee
4932 posts
Sep 05, 2017
3:36 PM
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i have a little more time and i'm on a keyboard now, so perhaps i should try to elaborate.
why do we play in different position?
because the harp is a diatonic instrument and has a limited choice of notes. so a C harp only has 7 notes 'built in"
C D E F G A B
we can make some other notes with draw bending and blow bending:
Db/C# Gb/F# Ab/G# Bb/A# Eb/D#
but with those techniques Eb/D# is only available on +8' (the 8 blow bend)
if you wanted to play a song which employed a C major scale (C D E F G A B C) then a C harp has all those notes. but if you wanted to play a song which used a c minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C) it would be rather limiting, especially because the Eb is a really important note. its the 'minor 3rd' of the scale and really is the essence of what it means to be playing minor. if you tried playing C minor on a C harp, you can only get the minor 3rd in the high end of the harp, and by blow bending. you could get it in the other octaves using overblow technique, but that is an advanced technique and so most people would not choose to do it. this is why 1st position is mainly thought of a a major position, although certainly we can play blues and do use the high end to get a wonderful bending blues scale, probably not minor per se though.
more commonly, people will choose 3rd 4th or 5th position for minor songs.
to play a C minor song in 3rd position you would use a Bb harp.
this gives you the built in notes of the Bb major scale
Bb C D Eb F G A
the C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
so the only note missing on the Bb harp is the Ab (aka the minor 6th, or flat 6th) which can be obtained as a half step draw bend in the 3 hole and overblow 6 (the easiest overblow) as well as 10 hole whole step blow bend. and its also possible a less important melody note that you can often live without.
4th position for C minor would mean playing on a harp which has C in 6 draw which would be an Eb harp
this harp has the built in notes Eb F G Ab Bb C D
C minor is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C, so all the notes are there, although the C is only readily available in 10 draw, 6 draw and as a whole step bend of 3 draw.
its a useful position but sometimes the notes 'layout' better in 3rd or 5th position, even though certain notes (such as the minor 6th in 3rd position) may not be so easy to get. by 'layout, i'm talking about the ease of moving between certain notes for playing good-sounding passages or licks. it just depends on the song and what you are trying to do.
10th position would usually be thought of as one of the more awkward positions. the only place i can think of where one might say it is common is on the chromatic, where many songs are played holding the button in, and playing in a style reminiscent of third position. people do this quite a lot, and in fact many call it 3rd with the button held in, but its 10th, by definition, if you play a C chromatic in Eb, even if you are moving around in ways you would use to play in D leaving the button alone.
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johan d
80 posts
Sep 05, 2017
10:32 PM
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Thank you. It is this song:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tNE9ad2HWAFXNggj1
I probably concluded to use 10th position, because it start with an A (7blow), then a G#(7draw), then a B(8draw),... but after figuring out the song and your tip to use 1st position, it were excactle the same holes I used on the 10th position.
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SuperBee
4933 posts
Sep 06, 2017
2:35 PM
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Ok, that's good I think.
As you are using an A harp, yes those are all the built-in notes.
BTW, I wrote incorrectly above when I said about the 5 and 2 overblows. The tonic note for 10th position would actually be the 1 and 4 overblows and the 8 blow bend, so on an A harp you'd be playing in C if using 10th. I'll edit the posts above to correct that.
For the sake of the exercise, 10th on an A harp, based on a C major scale would mean
+1* 2" 2 3'" 3' +4 4 +4* 5 +6 6' +6* +7 8 +8' 9 +9 9* +10" +10
(C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A)
So for the non-overblow player, the tonic is awkward (+1*, +4* and 8') regardless of the mode chosen for a C scale, the tonic won't change.
The second/9th is easy enough in 2", 5 and 9.
The major 3rd is also readily available in 2, +6 and +9
If you wanted a minor 3rd, that would be a half step bend of 2 draw, and overblow 5 and an overdraw 8
The 4th is ok in 3'" and 6' but awkward in 9* (overdraw)
The 5th is 3', +6* and +10". If you wanted a flat 5th that's 3", 6 and 10
The 6th is straightforward as +1, +4, +7 and +10. The minor 6th is 3, 7 and +10'
The 7th is 1, 4 and 8 draw. The flat (aka dominant) 7 is 1', 4' and 7*
So I think that demonstrates why 10th position is a rather uncommon choice for diatonic players. If you can't overblow/overdraw you're really up a stump with 10th.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 06, 2017 2:39 PM
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