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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Resonance, dropped jaw and bending
Resonance, dropped jaw and bending
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pythonbeg
7 posts
Sep 05, 2017
1:14 AM
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Hello again, I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere in any great
detail so I thought I would write down a few observations I have made
and seek some feedback.
I got a Manji in A after many months of working with cheap harps in C
and I was initially very pleased with the Manji and its response,
until I realized that I was having some trouble sounding the 2 hole
draw properly. With a dropped jaw, I was able to get the 2 hole draw
to sound very slowly, sometimes taking up to a second to sound
properly and even then not up to full volume. However, if I kept my
jaw up and drew, I was able to get a strong and horn-like 2 draw
sound. However, because my jaw was up I was also inhaling air through
my nose and that meant I could sustain the note for only a few
seconds. For one particular song I had to move quickly from 3 draw to
2 draw, and changing the embouchure so quickly was not easy.
The other part of this started when I tried to bend the 2 hole draw on
the Manji. I found that I could get the bends very easily (although
not yet in tune), but I wasn't able to release the bend without a
strangled cat noise or complete silence in between. And even then, the
resulting unbent note would be weak.
This led me to finally realize that the problem was resonance and the
size of my oral cavity. I don't have a lower harp than the Manji to
verify this, but to me it seems that I physically can't make a large
enough oral cavity to resonate the 2 draw on a A harp. I assume that
the cavity needs to get bigger the lower the note, which means that
the same thing would apply to the 1 draw on the A harp and it does,
although the effect is not quite as extreme as what I see on the 2
draw.
Sorry for the slightly rambling post, but I'm still trying to put my
finger on the exact issue here. My current problem is that I can't get
a strong 2 draw on an A harp with the "correct" embouchure with the
dropped jaw and I can't bend and unbend smoothly either. Has anybody
else noticed anything like this? I'm especially interested in whether
people who use low harps have noticed anything like this because that
would confirm that this is pretty much a resonant cavity problem.
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johan d
78 posts
Sep 05, 2017
2:08 AM
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Did you see this video?
https://youtu.be/K5Gcchw5rkM
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pythonbeg
8 posts
Sep 05, 2017
3:46 AM
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Thanks, yes I have seen that video. Its how I got the correct 2 hole draw on my first C harp and I use the same embouchure today. I have no problems with the 2 draw in C, Bb and F. It happens only on the A harp, so I assumed it had something to with it being the lowest key I have tried so far.
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bublnsqueak
89 posts
Sep 05, 2017
5:48 AM
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Makes sense to me.
Not viewed the vid yet as I'm at work.
I have a lot of trouble draw bending the 2 on anything below a G Manji
Paul
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SuperBee
4929 posts
Sep 05, 2017
7:22 AM
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Might have something to do with the key. Could be the reed.
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SuperBee
4930 posts
Sep 05, 2017
7:23 AM
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A is one of the easier key harps to play for most people.
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pythonbeg
9 posts
Sep 05, 2017
8:38 AM
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I suspected the reed gap a while back and lowered it but I haven't done this very much before so it's possible it had no effect. I'll check it once again, thanks for the suggestion. I also sanded the comb flat as a precaution a while back, and the harp is very airtight right now.
Paul, do you have any other technique for bending on the low harps then?
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SuperBee
4935 posts
Sep 06, 2017
7:10 PM
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Hi Pythonbeg
It's a deep well to investigate what might be happening here. I suspect the setup of your harp may be an important factor.
There is a lot more to it than gapping, but that is where we often start because it's probably the most common problem and the easiest fix.
I have a lot to say about this and I say it often. Perhaps it's not the best way. Andrew Zajac has some nice free video which shows some of the factors fairly well.
In dave Barrett's paysite bluesharmonicadotcom, you can watch Kinya Pollards videos about setup. It might take a while to find the relevant sections but you'll learn along the way.
And Richard sleigh has produced some instructive video too, but it costs.
I'll try to summarise the likely possible causes for the phenomenon you've described, at least in terms of where I'd be looking.
If your gap at the tip of the draw reed looks ok, is first look at the blow reed. There is no getting around this; the reeds share a chamber and if one snores the other gets cranky. People spend effort and money trying to eliminate tiny and sometimes imaginary gaps between reedplates and comb and sometimes ignore the 2 biggest holes which render the comb/plate factors insignificant. If your blow reed is gapped wide, you can set your draw reed so tight it will hardly play and you still won't get a bend. The reeds must be balanced. It's actually the blow reed delivering much of the 'bent' note when you draw bend, so that's where you need to be looking if your bends are squealing.
If both reeds are nicely offset, then you need to consider the rest of the reed, the shape and the action.
In the case of a reed which squeals or buzzes, especially when bending, I'd look to see if the reed is twisting, dipping one corner/side into the slot before the other.
What to do when you find it is another story.
If that's all good or even if it isn't, next I'd be looking at how the reed closes the slot along its length
In your case I would be unsurprised to find it's doing a belly flop, or maybe even has some of the belly already in the slot at rest,
The symptoms sound consistent with this sort of thing.
The other thing you might find is the tip dives in first. This will cause a weak-sounding reed
I don't mean to ignore thevfixed end, this can be the root cause of the problem. Possibly the reed starts off too high above the slot, or heads off too soon into the slot. When reshaping reeds you really need to consider the fixed end first as all your efforts to make the reed function nicely really depend on starting at the fixed end. Twists can originate here too. The drag is that it's the most difficult place to work and being a Suzuki you don't really have the options you get when working in Hohner and Seydel harps. You can't swing the reeds out of the way or just easily pop them out and reattach and you can't just buy a new reed easily should you mess up the one you're working on.
But, also being a Suzuki maybe the Root end won't have anything wrong so there's swings and roundabouts.
Anyway, there is a lot could be said but that's few Things you could take a look at. Mainly though, if your interested check out some videos and start to work out what's going on. You'll become a better player too. I'm convinced about this, but not everyone agrees
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pythonbeg
10 posts
Sep 09, 2017
9:49 AM
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Thanks Superbee for the detailed suggestions. So far I have checked the gapping on both the reeds and they seem fine. The reed profile seems to be the standard Manji profile and I don't find any difference in the profile between the 2 and 3 draw and blow reeds so I assume that they are also fine. I plan to go down this path eventually, but I'd like to avoid damaging the Manji for the moment, and since Easttops are cheap I'm getting one in A to compare and contrast, to see if it is my technique or if it is the Manji that has the problem. Thanks for all your help, I'll keep you posted on what I find.
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bublnsqueak
90 posts
Sep 11, 2017
3:35 AM
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Hello Pythonbeg,
"Paul, do you have any other technique for bending on the low harps then?"
No; I just can't do it. I have Manjis all the way down to Low C but only use them for chugging really.
I liked your 'Oral Cavity' hypothesis because that is how it feels for me: I find that the bending on the higher key harps comes easy if I do everything at the front of my mouth, this seems to move progressively back until I get to my throat and at that point I can't bend the 2 draw.
No doubt improvement in technique would make it possible but I'm not very motivated as I don't really like the sounds I have been able to get out of a bent low harp.
Can't really comment on other harps as, apart from Manjis, everything else is a C.
Paul
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Killa_Hertz
2394 posts
Sep 11, 2017
5:11 AM
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I think Bee nailed all the possible issues with the harp. So I won't repeat any of that.
However I Think another possible issue is not your mouth SIZE, but possibly your mouth SHAPE. If you notice each note has its own "perfect" resonant cavity to make the note ring out best. This cavity involves much more than your mouth. Opening your throat and drawing the note down deep is very important for big tone. However, more to the point, your mouth is the most impact full and it being in the wrong shape can actually cancel out the note.
If your not sure what I mean, try this. Get a nice draw 4 or 5 sounding and then while keeping the exact same mouth shape try to hit the draw 2. Sounds pretty bad, right? Same thing goes for bends.
What alot of people don't talk about (or maybe don't realize that they are doing) is that ... as they run around the harp, their mouth is constantly changing to resonate the different notes. You don't really think about it because its just muscle memory, but it happens.
A way to figure out where the proper mouth shape is,is to envision signing the note. Beyond that .... just experiment and practice.
Hope this has made some kind of sense. Lol.
PS... the 2 draw IS one of the trickiest notes to get right at first. So perhaps check youtube for "how to hit 2 draw on harmonica". Being the root note for 2nd position, it's also one of the most important notes to make sound great.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Sep 11, 2017 5:16 AM
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Killa_Hertz
2395 posts
Sep 11, 2017
5:18 AM
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https://youtu.be/aQ5ELGrbrgY
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LSB
267 posts
Sep 11, 2017
10:47 AM
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Sounds to me like the typical beginner 2 draw technique problem, which is really an issue of how you breathe, more than anything else.
It's very telling that A) you could get a strong "horn like" 2 draw when you you were also venting air in through your nose, but have problems when you inhale on the 2 with your nose closed off, and B. The 2 draw will sound when your nose is closed off, but it takes time to get going. This,tells me you aren't breathing from the diaphragm enough and/or your throat is possibly not open enough, the common things that cause beginners to think their 2 draw isn't working right. I remember when the same problem, so I can relate.
The fact that the 2 draw will sound properly for you sometimes, and that you can bend that reed, kind of rules out serious harp issues. I mean sure it's not gapped and profiled like a custom, but the reed is functioning properly, you're just not able to consistently control it. Again, common on the 2 draw, particularly on harps significantly lower than what you're used to as a beginner.
I'd work on long, relaxed, open throated inhales on the 2 draw - breathe out slowly, then open your throat as wide as you can and breathe in slowly and relaxed from as deep down in you belly as you possibly can while playing the 2 draw. Oral cavity size/shape isn't really a factor in sounding the note, unless it's a bend, it just impacts how fat/full the note sounds. Focus on your throat and deep relaxed breathing for now.
FWIW, I can easily play and bend the 2 draw on stock LOW harps well below the A you're struggling with, which is not said to impress you, but rather encourage you, as I am no great harmonic player. Open throat and breathing from down low, and you'll have that 2 draw singing for you in no time!
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pythonbeg
14 posts
Sep 11, 2017
10:56 PM
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Thanks for all the advice, guys. Like I said, for the moment I'm just getting another A harp and checking if the problem is my technique or the harp. If it is in fact my technique, then clearly I need to work on breathing better. I was suspicious about whether it was my technique that was the problem because I went through this whole thing with my first C harp and I haven't had a problem with any other harp since then. But the consensus now clearly seems to be that I just need to breathe better. So I'll continue to work on that for a while.
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SuperBee
4947 posts
Sep 12, 2017
12:25 AM
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I think getting a second A harp is a good idea. What model?
It's the fact you don't have the problem with a C harp that makes me suspect the harp is part of the problem. That, and your description of the symptoms.
the fact that you can make the note sound if you adjust how you play in the way you described in the OP doesn't seem conclusive to me.
An A harp is not really a low harp. Every teacher I've taken lessons from (Jimi Lee, Mark Hummel, Ronnie Shellist) has chosen to start the lessons with an A harp because it's about the easiest harp for blues techniques,
Sure it's lower than a C harp, but the 2 blow of a C harp is the same note as 2 draw of an A harp (ie the 1 slot reeds of a C harp are lower than the 2 slot of an A, I really doubt there's any physical reason that you are having a problem.
How is the 1 draw bend?
I'll wait for the results of the second harp test with interest.
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Spderyak
151 posts
Sep 13, 2017
7:07 AM
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I'm at a cafe internet so just a short message.
I noticed there was some mention of the size of ones oral cavity and bending etc. Just wanted to say there are many ways to get "bent" notes. Hence many people with their personal preference and teaching methods and what not.
If it was just the size of oral cavity their would most likely be people removing their teeth to get "the big sound".
good luck happy playing
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Killa_Hertz
2396 posts
Sep 13, 2017
9:09 AM
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I want to be clear. I wasnt saying that I thought it was definitely your technique. I was just throwing out some information that I thought was useful.
It sounds to me like a sticky reed honestly. Many things can cause this. Bee covered it Pretty well already ... so I didn't want to just repeat what he had already said.
Very curious to see your results with the new A harp. Keep us posted.
By the way ..since we're on the subject of "dropped jaw" and tone. I really found this article helpful. Maybe you will too.
http://harpgear.com/tone.html
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Sep 13, 2017 9:16 AM
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pythonbeg
15 posts
Sep 14, 2017
10:13 AM
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Superbee, I'm getting an Easttop T008K in A, I'm also getting another one in G. They will take a while to get to me in India straight from China. Engaging the 1 draw is much easier than getting the 2 draw going, and the 1 draw bend also works well.
Spderyak, even on a C or an F harp I can hear a difference between a 2 draw done with the jaw up and one done with the jaw dropped. I think Adam referred to it as "squawking the harp" in one of his lessons or lectures. So the size of the oral cavity clearly affects the tone of the note. Perhaps the relationship isn't linear like I imagine it (the lower the note the larger the cavity).
Killa, I think that article has it right! I did a 2 hole draw, took the harp off while keeping the same embouchure and shone a torch in there. I can clearly see my tongue bunched up at the back of my mouth, blocking the view of my tonsils. So I need to work on keeping my tongue flat while inhaling. I'll wait for the new harps to come in anyway and report back. Anyone have any tips on what to aim for to keep the tongue flat? I can't seem to do it unless I'm sticking my tongue out like at a doctor's.
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pythonbeg
16 posts
Sep 14, 2017
10:47 AM
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Ok, mystery solved - the gap was too small and my attack was too hard. As soon as I increased the gap a little bit and eased off on the attack the note started to sound perfectly. I guess the harp came from Suzuki with a tiny gap in the first place, and when I started having problems with the 2 draw I went and reduced it again and made the problem worse. It seems to be working fine so far, but I'll keep an eye on it for the next couple of days to see how it settles. Thanks for all your help everyone. Learn from my example - if nothing you're doing is working, try doing the opposite.
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LSB
269 posts
Sep 14, 2017
4:54 PM
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Lol, I'm laughing because I considered writing a long post on the subject of trouble shooting these sorts of issues and the problems with adjusting the harp as a beginner, including the very real possibility of making things worse. Just didn't have the spare time to do it.
At the end of the day, it's probably still a breathing/embouchure issue in your case, as you were having problems before you adjusted the gaps the first time. Just because opening the gaps (more) got things working, doesn't really mean you are using good technique - in this case if you are choking a properly gapped harp, you are, as BBQ Bob would say, "playing too damn hard!" Or, It may be that your attack isn't too hard, it's just wrong, from a breathing perspective.
Do you have a set of feeler gauges that you can use to measure the gaps? If so, I have a new set of reed plates that play very well with the factory gaps and I could measure the 2 draw and blow gaps so you can compare. This would help sort out whether it's you or the gapping. I would have offered this sooner, but I didn't remember until today that I had a new/unused Suzuki Olive (which uses Manji plates), sitting in my spare harps box.
Last Edited by LSB on Sep 14, 2017 5:14 PM
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pythonbeg
17 posts
Sep 14, 2017
8:26 PM
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I always tinker myself into trouble like this, luckily I also usually have the skills to tinker myself out of it.
I don't have access to a feeler gauge unfortunately so there's no way to confirm yet. What I have done right now is to just compare the 2 draw gap with the 3 draw gap - the 2 draw is slightly lower than the 3 draw.
In the meantime I'm working on my technique, I'm definitely playing too damn hard.
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SuperBee
4964 posts
Sep 15, 2017
5:24 AM
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Well done pythonbeg, you fixed it and learned something. Maybe it was set too tight from the factory or maybe it was accidentally adjusted while you messed with the comb, but it was clearly too tight. You described what was happening well, the way you described what you had to do is consistent with a reed set too tight, which is similar in some ways to that belly flop reed. So you had to raise your jaw and reduce the airflow while reshaping the cavity to compensate. Makes sense. How is the bending on chamber 2 now?
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pythonbeg
18 posts
Sep 16, 2017
9:49 AM
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Cheers Superbee. After I fixed the gap and my attack, I'm now able to slide in and out of the bends smoothly, without any of the transitions (either silence or shrill noises) from before.
I have to say I'm becoming very fond of this beginner forum, the environment is so welcoming and everyone is given the benefit of the doubt. I hope I can treat others the way I've been treated here.
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