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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
tunning information of harmonicas
tunning information of harmonicas
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Frankie
24 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:32 AM
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Guys where can I find solid technical information of tuning of all major popular harmonicas?
I found one post in this forum but the link provided was not working and most of the results I got from searching in google was very old
Thanks
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SuperBee
5213 posts
Jan 24, 2018
12:40 PM
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I’ll have to think. I have a chart which has a lot of them, which I printed and laminated, so I haven’t saved a link.
Andrew Zajac possibly has something on his site.
I recently went to Seydel site and found info on their standard temperament. It was based on 443Hz standard and showed the variation from 0
Interesting to me was that while Seydel tune the 3rds (3 draw, 7 draw, 2 Blow, 5 Blow, 8 Blow) 12 cents flat (iirc!) in the draw plate and 14 cents flat in the blow plate (which makes sense in relation to the tonic of the respective chords: they tune the draw a little sharper than blow to compensate for the player’s tendency to flatten the draw notes), they tune the (dominant) 7ths (5 draw and 9 draw) almost equal. -2 cents iirc
Most of the Hohner temperaments tune the dom7s rather flatter.
I think Pat Missin has something on his site about temperament too. I’d be quite surprised if he didn’t.
Richard Sleigh may have something published. I’m not sure.
Most of the Suzuki stuff seems to be ET, except the manji and possibly the olive.
I’ve seen people claim the Hohner Crossover is close to ET but I haven’t really found that to be the case.
Also, with harmonica tuning you can’t really just tune the whole thing to a set of numbers because they don’t work like that. I mean you can do what you want, but I usually begin with hole 4 and tune that by the numbers and then tune hole1 to play a split in tune with hole 4. This usually results in a tuner showing hole 1 is a few cents sharper than hole 4, but that’s how it works when the embouchure and breath force get involved. The other big variable is condensation.
Sorry, I’m gonna keep going on the topic of tuning here rather than on the other thread you started.
Long reeds are more affected by breath force than short reeds. In general, the more breath force you use, the flatter the reed will play. There are limits but it’s a general idea. But this is seen more dramatically on the longer reeds.
Condensation seems to affect the shorter reeds more dramatically than the long reeds. It’s more of an issue on Blow reeds than draw reeds, and worse if the reeds are cold. I use a hair dryer to warm and dry the harp when I’m tuning in cold weather.
Also the harp will play differently with covers on than with the covers off. Usually it’s sharper without the covers.
I’ve tried using a tuning table to tune the plates and compensate a few cents for the covers but it doesn’t really work like that. I do think it’s likely why factory tuned harps vary so much, because they tune on a table with a reference plate. Unless the plates and the table surface are dead flat the reeds will not be consistent with how the play once assembled.
Please keep in mind though I am talking about fairly small differences. Mainly
Less than 10 cents variation is unlikely to bother anyone too much on a single reed. For me it’s more important to get the splits in tune, and that’s usually gonna mean the octave splits in particular.
Tuning the chords is also important but there are so many variations in ‘compromise’ that I wonder whether it’s worth the trouble sometimes; in the end it’s gonna sound like a harmonica. It seems to me that with all the variables of condensation and breath force and bending notes by ear and technique, the common signature sound of the harp for most players is that of a somewhat out of tune instrument.
But! We strive for precision at least as a starting point.
You asked about tuning your harps to ET. That’s probably the simplest thing to do, but still should tune for the octaves to play well.
So start with the middle section.
The blow plate is most difficult because you have to assemble to check the tuning, but it’s tricky to adjust the tuning with it assembled. I try to get it close as I can while disassembled and then fine tune once it’s together.
Start with 4 Blow, 5 Blow and 6 blow.
Then tune 1 to match 4, 2 to match 5 and 3 to match 6.
If you can’t play a split you can use something like Andrew Zajac’s ‘french tuner’ to help.
In general I have found the Low Octave reeds will need to be tuned 4-8 cents sharper than the middle Octave but it seems to vary from harp to harp.
Then tune the upper end to the middle: 7 to match 4, 8 to 5, 9 to 6.
Finally match 10 blow to 7 blow
I don’t find as much variation with the upper Octave. Some folks stretch the octaves but I use splits to tune them and I haven’t been able to stretch and still have the splits sound good. Maybe I don’t really get the idea of stretching the octaves.
The draw plate is simultaneously easier and more complicated, but for ET much of the complicated stuff doesn’t apply, so just easier because you can do it with the Reedplates attached to the comb.
Same principle though; start in the middle. 2 is its own beast though. It should match 3 blow, perhaps 2 cents sharper. You could start with tuning 2 draw to match 3 blow.
Tune 4,5, 6 and 7. Match 1 to 4 and 3 to 7. Match 8 to 4, 9 to 5 and 10 to 6.
In reality I’ll use a tuner on the first pass and then check how they play and adjust as need be.
The best free video I know is on Andrew Zajac’s site. I don’t think he highlights the fact that things sound different when the harp is fully assembled though.
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Frankie
25 posts
Jan 25, 2018
10:20 AM
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Thank you very much for all information. Where can I order the french tuner ? Will that work with all hohners I have marine band, rocket, crossover, special 20 also susuki promaster ,Manji and Olive
Last Edited by Frankie on Mar 20, 2018 11:48 AM
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SuperBee
5215 posts
Jan 25, 2018
12:14 PM
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Try this link Frankie. It’s also got some comments from Steve baker on tuning the crossover. I see it is actually much closer to ET than i remembered. Manji is somewhat similar.
Anyway, here is the URL
http://www.harmonicaspace.com/harmonica-forum/maintenance-repair-customization/diatonic-harmonica-tunings--an-update
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Frankie
27 posts
Jan 26, 2018
6:26 AM
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Thanks for the information,
Last Edited by Frankie on Mar 20, 2018 11:49 AM
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Spderyak
188 posts
Jan 26, 2018
7:00 AM
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You will hear the difference just like you can hear when your guitar goes out of tune
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MindTheGap
2465 posts
Jan 26, 2018
8:59 AM
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"...the common signature sound of the harp for most players is that of a somewhat out of tune instrument"
Yup that's the one! For blues harp, it's what people want to hear. I can't deny that there are real, audible differences in the different temperaments out there - at the same time I don't find it matters much musically.
I bought a harp tuned in Just Intonation. The chords are much sweeter that ET or compromise. It's very clear. But for blues I don't it sweet, I want it jangly so I spend time learning to leak air into an adjacent hole to give a nasty sound just like my harp heroes do.
Not to denigrate anyone's efforts with tuning, it's great. But as long as you know :)
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SuperBee
5217 posts
Jan 26, 2018
11:36 AM
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Hi Frankie,
I know it’s a link to an old post, but the info is solid. And the comment from Steve Baker is gold. It’s not only ‘from the horses mouth’ (Steve was heavily involved with developing the Crossover) but also addresses the ‘real world’ factors of tuning a harp.
Andrew Zajac is the readily accessible source for a lot of tools and information at the moment. If you go to his site (Andrew Zajac Harmonica is a good search term) and look at his tools page you’ll see the tuning tool I mentioned. Also read his ‘blog’ page. There are a lot of articles there you may find helpful
The post I referenced above is by bbq bob maglinte. Bbq bob is an active member on mbh and does have a link to a tuning chart he sometimes shares. Maybe that’s the one you tried which has stopped working?
I’m not sure where I got my chart, maybe Andrew sent it to me
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