Theres not many really blues men in the top list if you have a close look. If you trim off the non Blues Men( Popper, Mcoy, Del JUnco, Levy etc ), theres not much left.
"I play clarinet and let me tell you there is a huge difference between some guy in an orchestra and Pete Fountain - and it isn't down to dexterity."
Oh you play? Why don't you post a video of your playing? That would be entertaining to see. Pete Fountain plays dixieland music, orchestra musicians play classical music FYI. That is the huge difference. If you knew anything about orchestra musicians you would NOT knock them considering most people that are playing in major national orchestras are essentially virtuosos. Just because somebody has a solo career does not mean they are better than everyone in the orchestra, it means they were most likely a prodigy and got a career going through connections/interest factor. Simply playing in an orchestra is not a reflection of their true skill. Which symphony players have you studied with? I assume none, because anybody who actually plays or played clarinet knows this. You are terrible at staying on topic Ev630 considering I was talking about technique development and not playing jazz or classical.
In interviews, Sugar Blue has said that he is a full time tongue blocker, and that tongue blocking is essential to good tone.
I do not agree that a player must tongue block in order to achieve superior tone. But deep embouchure with as large as possible air aperture in the lips combined with deep diaphragmatic air production, an open throat, and a relaxed jaw are unquestionably important components of good tone production. Tongue blocking FORCES the player to do all these things automatically because otherwise it's not possible to tongue block effectively. But using good deep embouchure and doing all of these other things can also be accomplished while lip pursing.
A singular advantage of tongue blocking is that it allows the player to get the holes of the harmonica into the mouth PAST the teeth while playing which provides a larger, unobstructed oral resonance chamber. I am a mixed embouchure player myself, but I lip purse more than I tongue block. Several years ago in quest of improved tone i started to use a deep embouchure when lip pursing, tilting the holes of the harp down towards my throat with the edge of the top coverplate pressing against the corners of my mouth. This deep embouchure with the downward tilt actually puts the holes of the harp into my mouth PAST my top teeth, which, of course, improves the oral resonance chamber. This helps to provide tone production that is very comparable to that achieved through tongue blocking.
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 7:34 AM
On the subject of embouchure, Madcat Ruth primarily uses lip pursing and has said, somewhat emphatically, that tongue blocking is not essential to good tone. And he should know. After all, how many players actually have significantly better tone than Madcat?
Btw, Madcat does NOT tilt the harp when he plays. Neither does Jason Ricci. Neither do I when I tongue block and move the harp into my mouth past my teeth. But I do tilt when I lip purse. (Maybe that's why I'm not as good as Jason or Madcat?????) Anyway,I happen to think I get better tone tilting when I LP. But YMMV.
Once again hvj posts exactly what I was thinking! From Sugar Blue to tilting...my only comment to add is that labeling and evaluating the two is limiting your thinking and maybe your playing. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
jason tilts the harp when he lip purses. you can clearly see it in many of his videos. tilting the harp is a known fact to getting better tone. ----------
On the subject of both Walters and even both Sonny Boys being TB's only, there's some things that are debatable because a lot of what all of them did can be done either way quite easily but some phrases can't be done by TB as they also played some that can't be done with the lip block either, so I believe that they did both methods. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
barbequebob has touched on something I have been thinking about. I am sure that some phrases work differently TBed versus pursed. Or even by a combination of the two. The attack, timing, etc. would be affected by the embouchure used and/or changing from one to the other during the phrase. This interests me.
Take LW's opening to Can't Hold Out Much Longer, for example.
Part LW's solo on Jimmy Rogers "Act Like You Love Me" can't be properly played as a TB because the part of the phrase has the tongue beating off the palate to produce the staccato note phrasing and this can only be done with the LB method.
BW often would tell people he never put his tongue on the harmonica, but from knowing personally, he was known to BS people a lot, and I know the opening 4 bars of his solo on Walking By Myself to get the accenting right, it has to be done with a TB to do it.
I use both methods, often changing in mid phrase and I know for a fact the Kim Wilson also does this as well.
For sheer speed, the classical harmonica teachers tell you to TB and then move your head in a small arc, rather than the harmonica.
Personally, knowing both is quite advantageous, but to get a good handle on them, you DO need to make subtle adjustments in both your embouchure as well as the inside shape of your mouth to get the most out of them and most people often fail to do and/or understand that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Jon- I'd say fuller tone, not better. There are time when you want a thinner sound. If you end a song by going up to a high I instead of staying in the middle of the song that light thin airiness may be what your after. The more tricks you have in the bag the better.
Jason says in one of his YouTube vids that he doesn't tilt. But in some of his performance vids I agree that it looks like he does. I don't know...maybe he'll enlighten us.
Btw, for sheer speed when LPing, moving the harmonica in a small arc is more effective than sliding the harmonica straight across your lips. But the arc of the movement is VERY small--if the arc is exaggerated you lose speed and tempo.
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 11:09 AM
Oh you play? Why don't you post a video of your playing? That would be entertaining to see. Pete Fountain plays dixieland music, orchestra musicians play classical music FYI. That is the huge difference. If you knew anything about orchestra musicians you would NOT knock them considering most people that are playing in major national orchestras are essentially virtuosos. Just because somebody has a solo career does not mean they are better than everyone in the orchestra, it means they were most likely a prodigy and got a career going through connections/interest factor. Simply playing in an orchestra is not a reflection of their true skill. Which symphony players have you studied with? I assume none, because anybody who actually plays or played clarinet knows this. You are terrible at staying on topic Ev630 considering I was talking about technique development and not playing jazz or classical.
Why are you reacting so hysterically? Once again you completely miss the simple point being made - a point that challenges your assertion.
You're the one who thinks that harp is the only wind instrument where the physiognomy of the player is the key factor. My point is that there are differences, tonewise, between players of all wind instruments and some of that comes down to physiognomy.
For goodness sake, if that wasn't true then there would be little difference, tonewise, between Paul Desmond, John Coltrane and Sonny Rollins.
You don't need to establish my skill on an instrument to know that what I am saying is true. Just use your ears and your brain.
Now back to the discussion...
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 1:50 PM
What about Junior Wells? I was never sure whether he was TB or LP, although I leaned towards assuming the latter, especially on Hoodoo Man Blues with all the tongue effects. Anybody know?
He definitely employed TB on certain phrases.
Also, has anyone mentioned James Cotton? Sugar Ray Norcia also TBs all the way up the harp as does Lynwood Slim.
"You don't need to establish my skill on an instrument to know that what I am saying is true. Just use your ears and your brain."
This statement simply means "I don't know how to play, I'm a hack on clarinet" which means to me you don't know WTF you are talking about. Because the harmonica embouchure is both used as the tone production and technique production centers (of course, I am sure you play ALL your fast runs on clarinet with your french style embouchure!), what I say is correct. Please refrain from writing responses to my posts as you simply do not "challenge my assertions" but antagonize me to correct you with your complete ignorance.
Guys, I think everyone is still a little worked up from the last thread. It's easy to read things into comments that aren't what the poster meant. Then you post back angry and they post back angry all because people were reading and posting angry. Take a deep breath.
Jon- I'm not sure how accurate your cartoon is. It seems when internet arguments start the pain is much more drawn out and it takes longer to die. If only it was that painless! :)
Guys, stop it please. It's getting personal . walk away. Switch off your PC. Have a beer. It's not worth it. Argue all you like but don't make it personal.
I think it's pretty hard to argue that lip pursing ALONE is adequate to the demands of full-spectrum harmonica playing. I think octaves--the 3-6 blow octave in cross harp playing, for example--are an amazing addition to any blues player's vocabulary, for soloing or comping--and I remain unconvinced that players who only lip purse can play octaves. But maybe the technique does exist, and I'm always open to being convinced.
By the same token, I think it's mistaken to claim that 24/7 tongue blocking is the cat's meow and every other approach doesn't quite measure up. That's called fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is reassuring in a time a great change--that's one of its great attractions, in fact--but ultimately it becomes brittle. Please ask Violin Cat if he has ever had run-ins with brittle fundamentalists. My lips are sealed.
There's no resolution to this disagreement, but it's important to make clear exactly where the disagreement lies. It lies NOT between advocates of full-time TB and advocates of full-time LP. It lies between advocates of full-time TB and advocates of an approach that mixes TB and LP. I'm glad to know that Kim Wilson is on our side. :)
Dennis and I remain friends and I remain a huge fan of his music. As teachers, prophets, gurus of a sort, we have an honest disagreement on this particular issue--if not on a whole host of other important issues. I really don't have anything more to say on this particular issue, so I'll do my best to bow out gracefully. Too much thread-time means not enough practice time. We can ALL agree on that.
Edited to add: Dennis and his band are playing the Turning Point in Piermont NY this evening. Go!!
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 3:44 PM
I think what you say is true, Adam... I don't think either you or Dennis is a fundamentalist. I don't understand why discussing this topic gets people so riled up. I don't believe that everyone should be the same, nor do I believe that we should strive so hard to be original or different. We ARE different. ---------- Tin Lizzie
What you call "rage" I call "calmly correcting the feeble minded." Good to know we have a freudian psychologist with a Ph.d in psychoanalytic theory on board though. Maybe the question we all should be really asking ourselves next is "what is the psychosexual connotation for those who prefer "lip pursing", and those who prefer "tongue blocking"? Have at it Mr.
Oh, you know I'm right ;). FYI, I'm not paying your $100 an hour bill (I refuse to support your coke habit!). Why should I when I can get the same service free on a harmonica forum?
Just the other day I was thinking how naturally it has become for me to switch from LP to TB octaves - especially 1-4 & 3-6. Often I also TB 5 hole when moving from 3-6 blow to 1-4 draw. It is really call to add tongue slaps etc to the music, but for me it is much easier to LP the melodies and so I use that technique the most. I also play some classical & other types of music with harp and usually they don't need TB effects.
Recently I have started to appreciate the TB techniques with blues more than before. It adds another subtle dimension to the playing.
Well this thread certainly seems to have sunk to ridiculous depths yet again.
I do find it frustrating when this happens and have thought long and hard (about whether I should or not )before posting my next comments. Finally I reached the conclusion that I had to say something. So here's my opinion.
I fail to see why people have to de-evolve to a level of personal insults and abuse simply because they disagree about whether or not a certain technique for playing harmonica is better than another.
We all disagree from time to time, but we don't all sink to this neanderthal level all of the time unlike some people instantly seem to (you know who you are and you know exactly the kind of behaviour to which I am referring).
Those people that can't just discuss it like grown ups should simply stop posting on these kind of threads when they begin to heat up. All their selfish actions do is to turn a perfectly good, open, honest discussion into a melee.
Please boys grow up and stop ruining this great forum for everyone else. . I think it's time for you to all stop up now and act like grown ups, not spoilt little brats.
If you think about it Kingley and the rest of the forum members, these rows always seem to start when someone asks a question about what is best....what's best LP ot TB, what's the best harp, what's the best mic, whats the best amp. And the answers to these questions are always going to be subjective, meaning there is no real answer..only your opinion or belief.
Opinion or belief is not fact, it's opinion/belief. I might disagree with your opinion or belief and I might try and change your mind but in the end if you value or hold that opinion/belief strongly then nothing is going to change it. We all need to accept that.
Some of these rants can be quite entertaining but i think if some of the people involved actually met face to face they would find they had more in common with each other than things they disagreed about.
Even though I don't personally know any of the people on this forum I have, in a way, come to consider you all as friends and I certainly wouldn't speak to my friends in the way some of the guys have spoken to each other. So instead of letting these discussion descend into abuse and saying things you might later regret (like why would I ever listen to your opinion again if you called me a c**T!!) lets be a bit more mature and open-minded about things.
I'm not some pinko liberal by the way but I'm come on this forum mainly to learn things and to be honest I've not really learnt anything from thread above except ....well you tell me.
Kingly why did you remove your last post i was very intrested in your last sentance concerning a repete Atagonist who thinks he has something to offer the world But has to be the worst Ambassador for the Harmonica i could Imagine
Nasty - Simply because after some consideration I thought it would just give that person yet another vehicle on which to spew his venomous attitude.
He is a good player and has a lot to offer in the way of good constructive advice and criticism but seems sadly more interested in annoying people and bickering. Rather than simply playing the devils advocate constructively.
Hi Brothers and Sisters i started out as a U-blocker,Lip Purser,Tongue Blocker,we will all have varying tones because of our Body size much like yelling in a 44 gallon Drum then yelling in a 20 gallon drum there will be a different tone,,it's phyisicl shape changes the tone,,when i was a lipper you tell me i couldn't get good tone the old dog would start barking,,i have converted over to TB over the last several months or more it took about two weeks of sitting down like a man possed to get it happening.Up and down up and up and down the scale i went untill i got it right i didn't try and play songs just scales,,the argument this is better than that method is trickling in hear i don't want to go there i hear it from both sides,,do i now think my tone is much richer Yes and had many compliments on my tone from my Bro's at Jam nights saying geeze ya tone's realy improved,,i just say thanks i been working on it lately to avoid argument,,i know this is a thread on what works for me,,i hear the Brothers concerns on Learning this method the slobbering into the harp unable to bend tounge blocked BBQ-B is right still in Pucker mode,,to Bend Lip Puresing we use a lot of Jaw movement and tongue movement,,to do it TB there must be no Jaw movement only Tongue movement,,i find that i still move my tongue the same as i would Lipped but no jaw movement with my tounge on the comb of coures,,my Journey is not self taught i have been going to private leasons to learn this technic,,youtube is a great place to learn but there is nothing better than one on one lessons to advance quickly on our journey,,i allso have found it much easy to navigate the harmonica i know what note is where much like a person would read brail i guess,,trills bends warbles there all there much easy to land them trills,,easyer to rip from a 2 hole bend up to a 9 hole Blow bend and such..to my Brothers learning this technic go for it you can only become twice the player you are now it's allway good to have 2 bullets in ya gun than one you may need to use them both at times..Ps Brothers and Sisters I'm not saying 1 method is better than the other method or you can't get good tone Lip Purseing i was proud of my tone as a lip Purser,,as Addict says this is a personal prefferece thats working for us at the momment we are not Dissing Lip Pursers,,Please don't go there,,Ps my local Hero is one of the best ass kicking Lip Pursers on earth,,and i would not be afraid to say he could stand side by side with Adam Gusso or his good friend Jason But hay thats just me Hero worshipping my Bro,,check him out on my youtube page (nastyolddog)check out my Bro REV vidio clip This Train,,Addict thanks for introducing me to Dennis in the thread whats he doing,,i emailed DG he is one stella fella he took time out to explain his own Personal Journey from Lip Puresing to Tounge Blocking after i related my lifes Journey to him one Cool Bro,,it was me who urged Dennis to come over to MBH and explain what he was doing in the vidio clip provided,,this was just befor i came abord MBH myself
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 5:07 AM
The Illustrious Buddha decrees there is ZERO difference in tone between the methods. The body also has ZERO effect on tone. Resonate frequency is not reliant upon anything other then the appropriate space to full resonate. Tone is tone and pitch is pitch. IF the physical body mattered in such arrangements then everybody would be out of tune with each other.
with great fury and might,
Miyamoto Mushasi, Grand warrior for the Illustrious Buddha
@ Nastyolddog: You say: "to Bend Lip Pursing we use a lot of Jaw movement and tongue movement,,to do it TB there must be no Jaw movement only Tongue movement"
Maybe that's how you bend, but when I bend when lip pursing, I do not use my my tongue and usually don't move my jaw. I constrict my throat (or maybe it is the root of my tongue which is so far back it feels like it's my throat). I use this exact same technique to bend when tongue blocking. If i were to bend the way you describe, my tone would be weak.
I am able to bend with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth if i want to, but that's just to illustrate the point. It's better to keep the tongue on the bottom of the mouth for a larger unobstructed oral resonance chamber. Obviously, the tongue stays a little higher in the mouth if one is tongue blocking, because the tongue is on the harp.
So, if one is not using the tongue to bend and uses throat constriction instead, one can actually maintain a larger, fuller oral resonance chamber bending when LPing than when TBing, because one can keep the tongue lower in the mouth when LPing, and out of the way of the air flow. Now, this does not produce a night and day difference, but it does mean that one CAN get just as deep and rich tone LPing as TBing if you do it right.
Btw, I ordinarily don't use my tongue to articulate separation between notes, either when LPing or TBing. I start and stop airflow with my diaphragm. This solves the problem of how to articulate separation when TBing when your tongue is on the harp. But it's also FASTER than using your tongue to articulate separation anyway, and produces a smoother, more uniform attack, so i also do it when LPing,(unless I want to produce an extreme staccato effect, then i will use my tongue).
Your post illustrates why many people claim to get better tone when TBing--it's because TBing FORCES the player to do certain things that produce superior tone. But if a player makes a conscious effort to do those things when LPing, equivalent tone production can be achieved.
That being said, certain things can only be played TBing and certain other things can only be plated LPing. So, a complete player needs to be able to do some of each. Btw, many very good players use the tongue to bend instead of the throat. But i think i get better tone and better control using my throat to bend, and i definitely can play more accurately at greater speed using my throat. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 6:02 AM
Hmm, I've only been playing a year, started off LPing but have been busting my balls trying to learn TBing this past few months. After an early injury have finally worked up enough strength to bend most notes TBing, though I still have a long way to go. Playing single notes, the main difficulty, I find, is not being able to slide from hole to hole quite as easily as when LPing - especially from 2draw to 3 draw bent. I aim to perservere though, and know I will be able to do it fast eventually. It's just that LPing came so much more natural to me.
Yeah, so all I have to say is that I find TBing to be a whole lot harder, but that the rewards are obvious. Perserverence and practice. God, it's a long, hard road.
To learn tongue blocking, you don't have to start by tying to play single notes. It's easier (and more fun) to play octaves and other split intervals. Start by trying to play the 1-4 blow and draw octave stops. Put your tongue over holes 2 & 3 to block them as you blow or draw holes 1 & 4 out of the corners of your mouth.
If you hit the octave notes cleanly, you will get a VERY BIG powerful sound, this is in part because a difference tone or ghost note is created. The octaves will will make an even fuller sound if you slide the front of the harp deep into your mouth past your teeth as you play them.
Anyway, after you are able to do this, start moving your tongue around the harp to play other split intervals to see how they sound. Then start to move back and forth beween a tongue blocked split imterval and a single lip pursed note as you play. After you have the hang of that, start using split intervals as you play by playing them instead of playing chords, but still LPing for single notes.
After you can do all of the above, then start to try to get a single note while TBing. At that point, it will start to come to you a lot easier.
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 9:40 AM
@ hvyi GREAT advice! That is exactly how I learned to TB well. Make sure when playing single notes by the time your mouth has opened up and reached the 4 blow/draw you should be blocking 3 holes (1-3) if you are TB on the left side.
@ DirtyDeck "Playing single notes, the main difficulty, I find, is not being able to slide from hole to hole quite as easily as when LPing - especially from 2draw to 3 draw bent. I aim to perservere though, and know I will be able to do it fast eventually. It's just that LPing came so much more natural to me."
This I think is one of the main problems as well. The key is to remember that when TB on the low end, moving up a hole from say, 1-2, or 2-3, is about OPENING your mouth wider, moving the harp deeper into it, and blocking more holes so by the time you reach hole 4 you are blocking 1-3. Does that makes sense? Hope it helps...
Sock-puppet- A second online persona controlled by the first designed talk up the first.
Chris, I know you've said you've got some tough things going on right now, and I wish you well, but please stop with this. I'm just asking you as a fellow member of the forum, respectfully. I don't think you are helping and I think you are making a lot of people profoundly angry to no good end.
The Illustrious Buddha shakes his head in disappointment at you. Nothing but the truth has been shared and if the truth makes people then we are on the right track.
If it's a fight you seek the Illustrious Buddha does not fight but I his grand warrior does. I will warn you now, my fighting skills are so advanced that I use a wooden stick over the Katana.
You should not have any special fondness for a particular weapon, or anything else, for that matter. Too much is the same as not enough. Without imitating anyone else, you should have as much weaponry as suits you.
