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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Playing Smoothly
Playing Smoothly
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 27, 2008
7:24 AM
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I rarely listen to harmonica players unless somebody asks me to. Much of my sound is attributed to the fact that I listen and try to play like other instruments.
This is a good example of something that I would try to mimic on the harmonica.
Summertime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gmAqurqsis
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Anonymous
Guest
Nov 27, 2008
9:14 AM
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And?
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tookatooka
32 posts
Nov 27, 2008
9:25 AM
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Hi Chris, when I come back, I'd like to come back as a japanese boy. Those girls are so sweet.
However, I play Summertime a lot, it has the capacity to be bluesy or you can jazz it up. It's a very versatile tune.
I find my problem is after the first section, I can either repeat it again which would be boring, or, add in a counter melody or some twiddley bits. I tend to add twiddley bits which doesn't really help the melody but I'm having problems making up counter melodies. Wish I could do that.
I can see an Adam Gussow video lesson coming on.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 27, 2008
10:03 AM
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I was speaking sound-wise... meaning trying to emulate the sound of the violin player. Listen to the smooth sweeps and bends. The harp can do all of that.
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Miles Dewar
87 posts
Nov 27, 2008
11:56 AM
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I love asian girls. lol Beautiful.
---Be Positive---
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Joe Spiers
Guest
Nov 27, 2008
4:10 PM
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Very old Hohners had a little instruction paper included that said to try to make your tone sound like a violin. I think it's good advice. I think that when the reeds sound like that, that's when your resonance is matched, as demonstrated by the harmonic content, and control is enhanced.
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Luke juke
Guest
Nov 27, 2008
11:16 PM
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Well i can make my harp sound like a 'burning down pet shop' i can also make it sound really, really bad
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Aussiesucker
82 posts
Nov 28, 2008
1:39 AM
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I think as harp players there is a huge difference in what we really like to hear & appreciate in harp playing compared to the average Joe. Whilst we might applaud the skills of many players these 'skills' might not be of any interest or be appreciated by the listener.They either like it or don't. The particular listener might well be versed in music and appreciate what is generally good but does not understand what it is that makes a harp player better. We understand the difficulties of playing a particular rendition of a well known melody using difficult bends and overblows - but, if that melody can sound better played in straight harp then why not? Me, I try to play some violin classics like Der Traumerie, Humoresque & Air on A G String which are relatively simple even on a diatonic but timing and playing smooth and sounding just like a violin is difficult but yes the harp can do it.. I know this is a blues harp forum but the harp is so versatile and so underrated.
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oldwailer
344 posts
Nov 28, 2008
9:47 AM
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I don't think it's a matter of being a harp player or and average Joe--it's a matter of being a musician or a listener. I can't hear any instrument played well and not want to do that on that instrument. I want to play pretty much every instrument. Listeners hear with different ears than we do. I sometimes listen to lousy music (my wife makes me use headphones) just because I like what the drummer is doing.
However, when I was playing Trombone I never thought to imitate a harmonica. On the flute I imitated James Galway--not harp. On guitar I always try to play something like the old masters--but I have been playing so long I can't really imitate anybody anymore.
My point here is: Why try to make the harp sound like a violin? I guess that would be good practice--but why not just learn to play the violin? I'd rather make the harp sound like a down and dirty blues machine--as God intended! ;)
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
10:28 AM
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"Why try to make the harp sound like a violin?"
Because it's an instrument in a similar range and you can gain a different perspective on phrasing.
Nobody thinks to imitate a harmonica because almost every harmonica player on the planet is terrible musician and very very very very few have an original sound.
I personally find the sound of the harmonica to be very harsh. I simply can't stand the way it sounds in the hands of most players. However, it seems I've been "cursed" to play this gem of an instrument but for me to "deal with it" I have forced myself to sound like something else other than a sqawky wanky harp player.
The harmonica as an instrument is still evolving in my book. As more and more students become learned in the way of music it will eventually progress into the rank of "real" or "serious" musical instrument.
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blow blue
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
11:42 AM
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I must say Chris even if you're a pro you're "cocky" attitude in every post you make is disturbing after a while.
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MrVerylongusername
37 posts
Nov 28, 2008
12:03 PM
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I kind of agree with some of your sentiments there Oldwailer, but I can also see Chris' point too. Not everyone wants to play just blues on the harp.
Blues is a very conservative artform and blues fans have very fixed ideas about chord progressions and how instruments should sound. Stray too far from those and you alienate that audience. IMHO it's their loss.
I think it's sad that in the public consciousness, the harmonica is synonymous with Dylanesque folkies and old time blues and nothing else; the piano is not restricted in such a way, nor is the guitar. Guitarists are "allowed" to use electronic effects to create new sounds. Fast harp players like Popper and Sugar Blue are criticised for having a lack of soul (OK hands up - I'm guilty!), but their guitarist equivalents like Satriani or Vai are elevated to God-like status.
I agree with Aussiesucker. Doing something to prove a musical point, to showboat your technical prowess above musical considerations is nothing but pretentious. It is a fine line between musical arrogance and genuinely bushing the boundaries.
Chris plays music with global influences. Jazz has its own rules and scales, funk has it's own rhythms. Eastern music uses microtones that only a few western instruments can replicate. I have enjoyed some of his work - some of it is not my cup of tea - but it is always refreshing to hear something new.
Looking back at the history of the harp, it's roots are in European folk music - not the blues - and in that sense it was always intended to be something like a 'poor mans fiddle' Somewhere on the harps musical journey, someone tried something different. It would be sad if that one stylistic leap was the end of the story.
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Tuckster
47 posts
Nov 28, 2008
12:15 PM
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Chris, I think you risk biting the hand that feeds you. The harmonica is probably the most accessible of instruments. It doesn't take much cash and you can get a tune out of it in 5 minutes. Harp players come in all the colors of the rainbow. I understand your point about harpers' general lack of music theory knowledge.But as a harp playin' buddy is wont to say: most of us are craftsman,very few of us are artists.Music theory certainly can't hurt,but I don't think it's a prerequisite.I don't think Little Walter was schooled in music theory, and he did OK. I listen to you,Howard,Carlos and sometimes Jason and hear something that most of us don't have. I suspect it's because you guys are well versed in music theory and also because you don't play in blues modes. As a music theory illiterate, I don't know,but I find it fascinating.Most of us forum members don't want to make a career of this, we just want to get better. I'm to the point where some music theory would certainly help my playing,but if you'd tried to show me music theory when I first started playing,I would have run away screaming. No, I'm not a musician, I'm just a hack,but that doesn't keep me from getting great enjoyment from this lowly instrument. I admire your "take no prisoners" attitude, but please cut us some slack.
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Keith
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
12:42 PM
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blow blue - have you watched any of Chris' videos? If you do, then you may come to appreciate or at least tolerate his posts. Also just imagine yourself after you've played for ten thousand hours and have "mastered" the harp. Where might you go from there?
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Blow blue
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
1:35 PM
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Hi again i appreciate his playing ,but not his attitude. i don't think the forum was ment to be the "Elite player harp forum for players that have the whole theory knowlege and never listen to harmonica to get better."
Most of us here,like to listen to harp i do understand Chris wants to open our minds .He is an amazing player YES,but he should learn a lot about communication . Why not making a Pro not blues Harp forum where you can post only if you've been playing 35+ years and hopefully not blues ?
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
1:46 PM
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Hey Guys, I don't mean to offend anybody here. My goal is to help anyone who wants it. None of what I write is pointed at anybody unless I say otherwise, so if it doesn't apply to you then don't claim the comment.
Fear of the unknown is a stopper for most people and animals. I push limits and boundries for myself and others because to me that's the best way to learn.
Let me explain. When I'm sick of the harmonica, I train dogs, I train them to competition level Obedience and Protection.
Like humans, dogs are naturally fearful of unknown things but they are also very curious. Most dogs that are not trained will not protect you because they are not trained to deal with pressure. What is pressure? It's fear that you don't know what to do in a given situation. So how is a dog ie Police Dog trained to bite people? You push them to their limits and just before they get to the edge of their limits you release the pressure. Now the dog has learned..."that's not so bad" You keep building from there.
If you want to grow as a player and musician then you have to jump outside of your box, push your bondries and be relentless in your pursuit. If you're goal is to play a couple of licks...cool. If you're goal is to play in a band...cool. Maybe your goal is to lead a band. Maybe it's to have an original voice...I don't know and all goals are just as valid as another.
Since this is Adam's list let me say something about him... he's a blues player... no doubt there but somehow he's found away to break away from the mold. He's as original a player as you will find and one of the guys that helped spawn Jason Ricci. That's a big deal. How did he do it? Adam can answer is best but he didn't do it by doing what everybody else does. He's marches to his own tune and I admire him for that.
If you want to be a player like Adam Gussow, Jason Ricci, Howard Levy etc...don't learn WHAT they play but rather WHY and HOW they play.
On my "cockiness" I don't subscribe to arrogance, or humility or whatever... I just am what I am and I operate within my reality and truth as I know it. I'm not a mean person and anyone who knows me personally will tell you that I would give the shirt off my back to help another person get to where they want to be. I carry myself as a part of nature and the cosmos rather than a part of society. As you travel the earth plane you will quickly discover that what works in America doesn't always work in Asia or Africa or Europe. What does work is being a servant to those who cross your path.
Back to music: I used to think I was totally nuts because I hated the instrument that has been to key to new experiences for me. One day I saw an interview with violinist Stephan Grapelli he said he plays the way he does because he hates the sound of the violin. The was a moment of enlightenment for me and I stopped feeling negative about my stance towards my instrument.
The idea of "putting other instruments into your instrument" is nothing new. I've shared a bit of time with guys like Bela Fleck, Vic Wooten, Stu Hamm, Joe Satriani, Eric Johnson, Chick Corea etc... and they all talk about listening to other instruments and trying to play the way THAT instrument would play.
Is it necessary to take your instrument to that level? of course not! But there might be ONE player, in the past, in the present or years in the future who is looking for "the secret" or that connection to how those guys did it. That's what I share with you all when I can.
My goal is to be one of the best harmonica players and artists ever. Lofty? yeah... but I'm doing what I can do to get there and in a world where there are few players who have truly pushed the limits of the instrument, I find myself on a path that is wrought with resistance, thorns and stickers. I may never achieve my goal but my path will be evident to those that choose to follow and if their journey has been made easier do to my efforts than I'm satisfied.
My path is where I take it and for me there is no better way to spend my time on this planet.
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Aussiesucker
83 posts
Nov 28, 2008
2:53 PM
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Great discussion you started Chris. What is wrong with a bit of controversy and in having a strong opinion? My interpretation of playing smoothly is all about phrasing, timing and delivery. I believe you can have all the technical mastery of the instrument but if you don't connect with the listener then its all wasted. Can we learn to play smoothly - I hope so. Some musicians may have it naturally. Take the genres of Blues and Jazz and we find that often the good players(the ones that connect) of any instrument can easily double up and sing. No they might not have what would be classed as a technically good voice but timing, delivery and phrasing is perfect. A classic example would be Satchmo. Similarly there are few brilliant singers whose natural ability ie lovely voice, great delivery and phrasing has earnt them the highest praise eg Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald & Patsy Cline. There are scores of technically brilliant musicians that can earn a place in an orchestra but it is the one who can connect that is out front soloing. I think the pursuit of technical excellence and understanding of theory is extremely important but being able to connect ie by playing smoothly, phrasing, and perfect delivery is the mark of a true artist. And what is so wrong in trying to sound like a violin when playing pieces that are written violin specific like Humoresque or Air? Having a violin (or a trumpet, or a sax or a steam train) that fits in your pocket is pretty cool!
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Keith
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
3:19 PM
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I just think that by watching Chris's videos and hearing him talk and even rant a bit (e.g. head shaking or vibrato) you'll be able to read his messages on the forum with the intended tone. There was a study that found the tone in email is misinterpreted 50 percent of the time. Furthermore, 90 percent of people think they've correctly intepreted the tone of emails they receive. I also had a negative reaction too at first, but watched the videos and changed my mind.
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Philosofy
90 posts
Nov 28, 2008
3:46 PM
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As far as playing like other instruments, that was a trick taught to me long ago. A buddy said if you are feeling stale, or in a rut with regards to your instrument, think how another instrument might sound, and play that way. When I'm stuck, I imagine the sound of a saxophone or trumpet, and try to replicate those notes.
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Luke juke
Guest
Nov 28, 2008
11:00 PM
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I hope chris's comments are said with a wry smile and his tongue in cheek. Otherwise his comments can be construed as arrogant and eat headed. I dont want to push the boundaries. I just wanna play BLUES harp and make it sound like a harp
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Preston
Guest
Nov 29, 2008
7:56 AM
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Chris, I sincerely hope you keep any and all comments coming. This is a "modern" blues harmonica forumn, and someone who has taken the harp to new levels like yourself deserves to have all there opinions and helpful ideas heard. I think your blunt, to the point, no-sugar-coating-added comments and posts are perfect.
I strive to make my harp sound like an electric guitar. My goal is that after one of my solos the listeners are going to be looking for a Les Paul bleeding on stage, because they're thinking there is now way in hell that sound just came from a harmonica. Oh yea, I also want it to sound like an old time chicago amplified blues harp too. I think having an un-pigeonholeable style is defining.
Peace
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 29, 2008
8:08 AM
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Thanks for the comments guys. I'm not about to change they way I am. I am honest with myself and others. I am here to help others as much as I can.
I love how Ricci has the electric guitar thing down. I'm not so great at it but I try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1sgmj7JvCA
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tookatooka
33 posts
Nov 29, 2008
9:36 AM
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Hey Chris, did I hear someone say you made a video covering vibrato/tremelo? If so could you post a link to it. I'd be pleased to see it if you did.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 29, 2008
9:42 AM
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vibrato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ud703uiyE
This was my first video, I prolly should re-do because I was nervous about it. Let me know how it works for you.
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Aussiesucker
86 posts
Nov 29, 2008
11:50 PM
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Chris, I tried to bring up the Youtube link you gave in your 2nd last post above and it took me nowhere? I would like to see Jason Ricci playing sounding like the electric guitar. Keep posting as your contributions help us all.
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gene
81 posts
Nov 30, 2008
12:46 AM
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Ya wanna hear "smooth?" "Technical mastery?" "Timing?"
Someone who "connects with the audience?" "Phrasing?"
And creativity? Check out "our own" Christelle's stuff on You Tube.
I'd like to play the harmonica; not a violin. So why not listen to a harmonica player I would like to sound like? (Christelle, for example.)
If I didn't like the harmonica, why in the world would I want to play it?!
If you want to sound like an electric guitar, turn up the gain, add compression, use a pitch shifter. Hakan Ehn on You Tube is a good example.
Christelle and Hakan: Two totally different styles. I like them both. (Thanks to technology, Hakan's more in my grasp.)
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 30, 2008
5:09 AM
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Aussie, that was a link of me playing purple haze.
Christelle is a very good harmonica player but not one that I would call smooth. She is still learning and growing as a harmonica player. Howard Levy is smooth. Brendan Power is smooth. Carlos delJunco is smooth.
If you want to play like Little Walter, Jason Ricci, Adam Gussow, Howard Levy you will NEVER play like them if you copy them. They will always be several steps ahead of you.
You know that Jason, LW, Howard don't listen to harp players right? You know that LW learned from listening to horns right? Jason is into a ton of different things. Howard plays the harmonica like the right hand of his piano.
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eharp
153 posts
Nov 30, 2008
5:51 AM
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jason doesnt listen to harp players?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbbDWQO8XNk
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 30, 2008
6:58 AM
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Jason Ricci is a friend. I know who and what his influences are.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Nov 30, 2008
7:38 AM
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some of you guys are missing my point. The goal here is not to prove me right or wrong. The goal is to show you the path to becoming better players. The point is, people like Jason, Howard, Marion Jacobs followed the same path I am trying to make apparent to you. Its up to you as to whether or not you want to become the best harmonica player you can be.
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eharp
154 posts
Nov 30, 2008
8:23 AM
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so he doesnt listen to the album? lol
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Aussiesucker
87 posts
Nov 30, 2008
12:48 PM
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gene, you are right re Christelle ie first and foremost she connects plus she plays very good as well as playing standards that we know and love. As for her technical mastery of the harp I don't know ie Chris would be a far better judge. Smooth, she sounds and looks smooth to me.
As far as listening to other instruments for inspiration on how to play I think this is important for some if not all of us. It would however IMHO depend on where we are at on the learning curve and where we eventually wish to head with the harp. Adam in some lessons refers to listening to other instruments. Personally I would be happy to be able to Play like Adam Gussow, however I like to also play like Buddy Greene. Another favourite is Brendan Power whom Chris describes as smooth. I also like a lot of classical standards and Irish tunes that are often performed on violin or the fiddle so that is why I like my harp at times to sound like a violin. But for sure I am not smooth!!
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tookatooka
34 posts
Nov 30, 2008
1:26 PM
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Caught your vibrato video Chris and I'm practicing. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it is very much appreciated.
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bluzlvr
82 posts
Nov 30, 2008
3:27 PM
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Wow. What a can o'worms got opened here. I personally don't want to play like anybody other than myself. That doesn't stop me from spending hours trying to imitate say, a Kim Wilson or a Sonny Boy. When I have some of these things down to a reasonable degree, it just comes out sounding like me. I think that every player has their own personal musical "stew". There are a huge variety of sounds that you can get out of a harp using articulation ect. My favorite is still that good ol' Mississippi saxaphone sound....
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kudzurunner
176 posts
Nov 30, 2008
6:33 PM
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Great thread, guys. Chris, I admire your ambition and approach. Although I admire musicians who are "nice guys," I try hard not to confuse artistic validity with likeability. They're different things. I worked for many years, as y'all know, with a guy who could be pretty harsh in his own way. Mister Satan! What arrogance, right? Sure. He wasn't always likeable. "Hell," he'd say, "I damn sure won't be a slave to my guitar." That was his rationale for NOT practicing when he didn't feel like it. Anyway, I'm OK with rough edges. Gato Barbieri is a jerk--or at least he behaved like an absolutel jerk to a woman in the audience, the one time I saw him play live--but he has an amazing sound. I'll never pay money to see him play, but I admire his sound.
Back to harmonica: I always loved the sound of the harp, pure and simple. But I was always a blues/jazz guitarist, too. My band in college was a jazz/funk group in which I basically held down the blues/funk guitar slot. I never played harp in that band. I wanted to be the next Larry Carlton. (Speaking of which: THERE is a tasty musician with chops to burn. Check out the free tutorials on his website.)
At a certain point after I'd given up music for a while, I came back into it and found that I was far more compelled by the harp. Great guitarists were a dime a dozen, but great harp players were fewer. In New York in the early 1980s I saw Butterfield, Little Mike and the Tornadoes, Steve Guyger (he blew my mind), of course Nat Riddles, Bill Dicey, Rocky Savino, Felix Cabrera, and a handful of other local guys. Sugar Ray Norcia when he came through, and then Cotton, Piazza, Carey Bell, and all the rest. But my favorite MUSICIANS, pure and simple, weren't harp players. They were Paquito D'Rivera, Sonny Rollins, Michel Camilo, Houston Person, and Albert Collins. Collins was an absolutely amazing performer. He had one note--a high octave--that he could slam into and make ring for days. His phrasing was the opposite of machine-gun phrasing. Every note was angular; hear three notes and you knew it was him. He had big fun on stage.
One way to be original on the harp is simply to try and copy what other instruments are doing. For me, it was R&B sax and funk guitar. My looping, jazzy triplet leads with octave leaps come from the former; "Thunky Fing" comes from the latter, as do some of my comp parts with Satan & Adam.
The harmonica world can be stifling. That's why I didn't go to SPAH for about ten years. I love the harmonica, don't get me wrong, but the subculture can get a little too inward-turned. I've always resisted that.
I don't agree with Chris entirely on the matter of the harmonica not being treated like a "serious" instrument. Obviously the general public doesn't know much about the great blues players, but those players were certainly great musicians. Big Walter, Little Walter, Cotton, Butterfield, and half the guys on the Yazoo HARMONICA PLAYERS OF THE 1920S AND 1930S. Being a great musician doesn't mean you can play any song that crosses your path, but it often does mean you have a wider range than your chosen idiom. (Big Walter's "La Cucaracha," etc.) Of course it means that you've mastered, in your own fashion, the range of sounds that your instrument is capable of making in skilled hands. But here, too, you need to be careful. If you learn to sound exactly like Little Walter--and there are, I believe, a few harp players who have this ambition--then you'll sound like one of the 100, or 500, guys who sound just like Little Walter. That's not an adequate career or artistic/creative goal. It can only take you so far, and then it drops you like a stone. Every age produces imitators, often quite skilled ones. There's always an element of spiritual deadness in that sort of thing. Sure, early on, as you copy great players, you're bringing your own spirit alive and aligning it with theirs. That's what it means to study an instrument. But at a certain point you need to veer away and risk actually speaking in your own voice on the instrument in order to keep your spirit alive. That's harder than it seems. Some people never figure out that this is what the goal should be. Of course, if your goal is simply to master a basic repertoire and achieve journeyman status and make some money playing an instrument, originality may not be the point. I'm OK with that--as long as that musician, with that goal, is honest with himself.
The diatonic harmonica is unusual in that it truly is a democratic instrument. It's possible for a rank beginner to have a lot of fun right away, and for somebody who's been playing for a year to join a band. (I did that.) I'm leery of the way in which subcultures draw lines in the sand--in the "running world," for example, people love distinguishing between "runners" and "joggers"--and I hope we can avoid doing that. I've been very judgmental in my time, of course. Once I learned how to overblow, everybody who didn't overblow--and especially the better players--began to sound old-fashioned. Sometimes I said that, and saying it didn't always make me friends.
In the last year and a half, I've been forced to do what Chris advises us all to do, which is reassess what I thought were my strengths; reassess the walls I'd erected around what I did and did not do, musically, in an effort to keep myself comfortable. Compared with the stuff Chris plays, I sound quite old-fashioned in certain ways. I'm tonal! I don't employ shifting key centers, like a true jazz man. After much reflection, I realized that even in an age when giants roamed the earth (i.e., Howard Levy on harp, Coltrane on sax), there's room for good, lesserly-innovative but still soulful and original players. Not everybody has to be the great genius of his time. Not everybody has the natural talent and/or the dedication to be that. The age that produced Bird and 'Trane also produced Hank Crawford and Stanley Turrentine. They're my guys. They weren't the great geniuses, but they had original voices and they were an important part of the scene.
To grow musically, I've found, it's necessary to maintain a tension between enjoying what you do ("I'm the greatest!") and critiquing what you do ("I suck! I need to woodshed, learn new stuff, and get better!") That's most of the ballgame, right there. Maintain the tension, keep your ears open, don't draw too many lines in the sand between yourself and other members of the larger subculture and the musical world as a whole, have fun during the woodshed process, and take what you've learned out into the world to get some honest feedback.
Then repeat.
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2008 6:56 PM
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Aussiesucker
88 posts
Nov 30, 2008
6:40 PM
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Have seen your Youtube on vibrato Chris and have found it very helpful. This thread has certainly opened some cans of worms. Its great to digest or disregard the views of others in our quest for improvement. In the long haul it really does not matter what we think of ourselves as a player its up to others to accept or reject us. But if we are still having fun its really all that matters. Always we should develop our own way of playing along with a little help from our friends. What I have noticed in visiting various festivals ie country, folk and blues is that the good musos seem to pop up everywhere ie they are not limited in what they play. Ultimately I would like people to think of me as a smooth harmonica player able to play what the people want to hear. I find learning and practicing blues quite challenging ie some I love and a lot I dislike intensly. That is not to say that I don't appreciate the skill of the musician but I will stick my neck out and be a 'heretic' and say that I don't like tunes like Juke & Whammer Jammer. On the other hand Adams slow front porch blues is something I love. I also love tunes that can be bluesified. When I first got interested in learning some blues harp I met a local well known blues harp player who plays with a group (he sounds pretty good ie he and the group he plays with connect with each other and the audience). He confided in me ( may be he gave me a bum steer) that playing blues harp was really simple in that all you needed to do was choose the correct key harp and suck on the first 4 holes! He also said that he envied my being able to play tunes as it was something he could not do!! Having now travelled a lot further down the road I find that its all not as easy as he made it sound.
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oldwailer
348 posts
Nov 30, 2008
9:20 PM
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"That is not to say that I don't appreciate the skill of the musician but I will stick my neck out and be a 'heretic' and say that I don't like tunes like Juke & Whammer Jammer."
That's OK, Aussie--just be sure to turn in you harps to a local Harp Cop Station within three days! ;)
There is an old Mexican fable that I vaguely remember from when I once lived in Mexico for a few months--it tells a story about a Mexican potter who is forced by his master to make pots that are copies of great pots the master has made.
The guy makes thousands of pot copies--then, one day, the student makes a truly great and outstanding pot that is not a copy. The master applauds for the first time ever.
The point being that one must copy a lot of masters before gaining the skill to be an original.
Well, maybe that is bullshit--but it's the way I approach music--I copy things I like until I finally break out into new ground that I think is really mine.
Earlier in this thread I asked why one would copy a violin on the harp--well--here I am--answering my own question.
Now I'm going to go copy Chris' "Purple Haze" version for a while--it's really cool!!
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Aussiesucker
89 posts
Nov 30, 2008
10:18 PM
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I wondered when you were going to 'come in' on this OW. Im probably a lot lot older than you and I like my music just a bit slower and mellower (smoother). One bit of advice I wont be taking from you is to hand in my harps to the local harp cop station. I value them far too much. Also I'm safe way over here to make the odd outrageous statement to keep the pot stirring.
As for copying I mostly find that I can't copy exactly what I hear so I find a different path that gets me there. I love your Mexican pot story.
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bluzlvr
83 posts
Dec 01, 2008
1:03 PM
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I got to second Adam on Albert Collins. I got to see him for the first time at the Whiskey in Hollywood, I was right up next to the stage, and many times after that. The only thing I disagree with, it doesen't take three notes to recognize him, it only takes one.
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oldwailer
349 posts
Dec 01, 2008
5:07 PM
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Hey Aussie--here is a quote of the day for you:
"When I was younger, my parents taught me to respect my elders. . . Now I don't have to respect anybody!"
--George Burns
I doubt that you are a lot older than me--but we won't go there.
I can't copy worth a crap either--but I try to--then I come up with stuff I really like.
I'm glad you didn't turn your harps in--we need you here to offer sage and aged advice! ;)
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Honkin On Bobo
10 posts
Dec 02, 2008
8:32 AM
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Great thread. It touched on such an important point for me, that I can best sum up as - when reading or viewing material from the likes of a Chris or Adam, I first try to figure out if I am the audience they are trying to reach with that specific material.
Both Chris and Adam are great players. A significant portion of their material is way over my head as I'm probably between a beginner - intermediate as defined by Adam. It would be overwhelming for me right now to consider thinking about playing the harp like other instruments or mastering musical theory, when I haven't even mastered all the bends,overblows, blowbends for example. Trying to incorporate the advanced stuff would just kill my desire to even practice.
When they talk about this stuff I don't take it as arrogance, on the contrary, I assume that as masters of the instrument, they'd get bored addressing the problems of a beginner like me on a regular basis. That said, one need look no further then Chris' video on the "straw trick" or Adams video on getting a clear rich 2 hole draw tone, to see that they are both committed to helping non-masters of the instrument as well. When they start talking about the advanced stuff, I listen to get the idea, and then file away for the day that I get to the point where it might be relevant for me.
Just my two cents.
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CarolynViolin
14 posts
Dec 02, 2008
11:29 AM
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Hi guys! I've just joined this discussion. Lol, I'm the pro violinist in the group. And I see that some of you are making comparisons between harmonica and violin and that it might not be such a bad idea to emulate the smooth, legato sounds that a violinist can make. Of course, it's all very interesting to me. To my ear, I hear similarities between violin and harmonica. Yes, a harmonica player can make those really beautiful, sustained notes like a violinist. Those notes really carry nicely and resonate. And why not make them? You can still sound extremely bluesey and wail all you want and bend the notes. I've heard many harmonica players do this. It sounds fantastic! And I would imagine that it would also be an excellent exercise in breath control for a harmonica player. I think that trying to emulate the violin would be good on slow ballads like "Summertime." Then, of course, you can jazz up the rhythms on other stuff, but you can also do that on violin. Both instruments allow you to be extremely versatile.
Carolyn
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Oliver
26 posts
Dec 02, 2008
3:29 PM
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This has been a great thread guys.
I dont have a lot to add other than by saying I think trying to make X instrument sound like Y is a bit of a pointless concept. Why do that? Trying to make said instument X sound as good as it can, or just how you want it to, is surely better than trying to just emulate the sound of instrument Y? If thats your goal just play Y.
Think about sounds you like and try to make those sounds on your instrument. If it can't, find one that can - surely thats about it?
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Tuckster
49 posts
Dec 02, 2008
6:23 PM
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Oliver,you're missing the point. While Carolyn explains it much better than I could, let me give you another example. Little Walter and every Chicago blues harp player thereafter plays horn lines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is without exception. All of them. I went to see a blues band with a sax player and was totally shocked at how much I "stole" from him. It was uncanny. I'd play it in my head before he played it. I didn't learn that from sax players. I learned it from harp players copying sax players.Violin is a good "fit" for harp,just like horns. You phrase differently. It gives you variety,otherwise everything you play would sound the same. Piano and guitar work,too.
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Miles Dewar
97 posts
Dec 02, 2008
8:03 PM
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We are talking about keeping a more CREATIVE path in focus while practicing.
We also are talking about Succesfully replicating another harp player's style.
There IS NO WRONG thing here.
We all may choose one, or the other.... or we can combine the two...........OR.....NOT PLAY....Even this is not a wrong answer.
We all have to make goals, and Paths to those goals. If my goal is to learn 2 or 3 licks and play them for the rest of my life then GREAT! I have accomplished what i wanted to on harp. But as "musicians", there are a lot of us who want our own voice. One that can distinguish us from others.
(What was more fun on halloween, dressing up in the same costume as all your friends, or making your own new costume? The answer is what you LOVE to do. There's billions of people out there. Some want to be like others, some don't.)
We can't look down on people for wanting to replicate someone. If this is someone's goal, we need to congratulate them for "SUCCEEDING". For ACCOMPLISHING something......I believe we all do share one common goal.
Obtaining SUCCESS on harmonica.
"What do you define as SUCCESS?"
I skateboard. I mainly focus on doing freestyle. Which is an older "outdated" type of skating. When i am at parks, many, many skaters say that i am not going to find success in skateboarding if i continue to focus on freestyle. They are wrong. What Success is, is determined by ME, my thoughts. NOT by my surrounding universe.
I am not a Successful grinder, but I am on the path to being a truly successful Freestyler. So really i am both.....UNSUCCESSFUL......and SUCCESSFUL.... then, so is EVERYONE!
What matters is that we live in OUR OWN MINDS. Realizing True Success does not always come from our surrounding enviornment. BUT it always comes from inside our BRAINS. Whether we accomplish something, know something or someone, or not.
---Be Positive---
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 8:12 PM
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Aussiesucker
93 posts
Dec 02, 2008
8:49 PM
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Could not agree more Miles. Go where you want to go & be what you want to be. Horses for courses ie if harp playing is a hobby enjoy it; if it is your job then you better be real good at it, but still enjoy it. The path we all take is as short, long, steep or as rough as we care to make it.
Success on a harmonica? If you asked someone who didn't have a clue they would probably name Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen and hey who is to argue that they are wrong?
Goals constantly change as do musical tastes.
Great thread this.
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Oliver
29 posts
Dec 03, 2008
5:37 AM
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Tuckster,
It's possible I'm missing the point, but I think I get it.
I might not have worded what I was intending very well. What I meant was why try aim to make the harp sound like a violin, because then that limits you to sounding like a violin (if you succeed!). Afterall, sounding like a violin is much easier when you have a violin, and not a harmonica I would have thought. If you start to sound like a harp, or a piano for that matter, you have failed in your goal!
Surely it's best to take elements from anything and everything you think sounds good (harps, violins, car horns...), and aim for an amalgamation of the lot to make your sound.
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 5:39 AM
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Tuckster
51 posts
Dec 03, 2008
6:31 AM
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Ha Ha Maybe I'm missing the point. While I don't quite understand what you're getting at,your last statement was right on the money.
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kudzurunner
185 posts
Dec 03, 2008
8:37 AM
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The history of the blues, and the history of the blues harmonica, is the history of musicians trying to make their instruments sound like "something else." Which is to say, making X instrument (the harp) sound like Y
Trains racing along the tracks, for example. Foxes being hunted by hounds. Babies crying for mommy.
What's wrong with trying to make a harp sound like those things? DeFord Bailey and Sonny Terry were the masters we know them to be because they worked extremely hard to make X sound like Y.
Robert Johnson's guitar style emerged because he copied, and necessarily adapted and transformed, the boogie-woogie bass lines that piano players played.
Somebody has already made the excellent point about Little Walter copying sax players. His entire harmonica part for "The Evans Shuffle" is lifted almost verbatim--but also necessarily adapted--from the sax line on Joe Liggin's "The Honeydripper."
If country-style harp and amplified urban harp are both grounded in making X (the harp) sound like Y, I'm not sure whether it makes sense to criticize the practice as somehow misguided.
Harmonicas have the capacity to do certain things, make certain sounds, that no other instrument--including electronic instruments--can do. The combination of chords, melody, and bent notes, for example, can't be replicated on any other single instrument. Pianos can do chords and melody, horns can obviously create melodies using bent notes.....
Well, guitar can do both. That's why blues guitar and blues harmonica go well together!
In any case, it's important never to forget that the harmonica has those distinctive capacities. But one key way that creativity has always manifested itself on the harmonica is by players turning AWAY from the current harmonica repertoire and out into the larger musical--and soundscape--world to find new ideas. No biggie. No threat to those who prefer to stick to established repertoire. It's simply important to remember that that established repertoire wouldn't exist had not innovators like DeFord Bailey, Sonny Terry, and Little Walter, tried to make X (the harp) sound like Y (everything else). The result, as Oliver suggests, is always a blend. But the motive--the make-X-sound-like-Y urge--is a crucial, valuable part of the process.
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 8:42 AM
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Oliver
30 posts
Dec 03, 2008
10:03 AM
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Very interesting Adam!
I think I might have come accross wrongly here - I certainly wasn't critising any practice in particular.
I'm just interested in the motivation behind wanting to make a harp sound *exactly* like some other instrument, rather than simply to take the elements and essence of some other instrument that you feel are positive and apply them to your playing (e.g. the smoothness of a violin). Afterall, when you set out to entirely emultate another instrument completely, as well as taking on the new instruments positive aspects you also take on its limitations!
I'm really curious now - if LW for example was really trying to sound *exactly* like a sax, what motivated him to do that?
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 10:06 AM
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