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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Dec 29, 2008
12:25 PM
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Yonnet is a good showman and that's about it. He's more talk, smiles and charm than musician. I know this seems like a slam on him but I'm being as objective as I can when I say he's not not very musical. I absolutely applaud him for the doors he's opened for himself but I believe at this point he is doing more damage to the future of the instrument than he helps it.
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kudzurunner
217 posts
Dec 29, 2008
3:06 PM
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Chris:
You've got my back, I see. :) I'm glad I'm not the only player who had some reservations. My comments about his playing, I'll say once again, are based on a pretty limited sample of his performances, and live video isn't the same as studio recordings.
HarpMan: I most certainly did NOT mean that I was feeling grouchy toward YOU. Quite the reverse: I'm always happy to have new names mentioned for consideration and dialogue provoked. I meant that I was feeling grouchy towards Yonnet--when and if he were put forward as a remarkable young blues guy. Thanks for mentioning him!
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Zhin
91 posts
Dec 29, 2008
7:07 PM
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I personally find the way Yonnet moves when he plays is incredibly irritating. There's nothing wrong with being physically active for showmanship's sake... personally I love watching Billy Gibson get all hyper on stage...
But Yonnet... looks like he's inventing his own genre... interpretive harp dance aerobics. :p If you haven't seen his Little Wing video, please don't question my statement.
One thing to note though, apparently he's very good friends with Stevie Wonder... who apparently loves how he plays.
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oldwailer
403 posts
Dec 29, 2008
7:23 PM
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By the way, I totally admire the balls it took to put this thread up and the discussion has been great.
Somehow, I still like Kim Wilson, though. :)
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harper
14 posts
Dec 30, 2008
4:13 AM
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Where do Hammie Nixon, Jazz Gillum, and Deford Bailey fit into all of this? They were certainly there at the beginning.
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kudzurunner
218 posts
Dec 30, 2008
5:35 AM
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Deford Bailey belongs at least in my Second-10, where he currently resides, if not in the Top-10. You must have missed him as you scanned my lists.
Jazz Gillum without question belongs SOMEWHERE. I can't remember if he's included in that Yazoo collection--my finessing-the-issue #11 on the Second-10 list. But he's an important player, no question. Talk about blues tonality! He knew how to mash down on that 34 draw bend like nobody else. I owe him. Where would you put him--and if you'd put him in the Top 10 or Second 10, which cuts would you have us listen to and whom would you demote?
Edited to read: "Jockey Blues" might be a good place to start. Dang.
I've heard Hammie Nixon's stuff, I'm sure--that Memphis Jug Band stuff--but it never left a strong impression on me. Name one cut that strikes you as representative, or his best, and I'll listen to it.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 6:03 AM
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kudzurunner
219 posts
Dec 30, 2008
5:45 AM
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For the time being, I've put both Gillum and Nixon in the Honorable Mention list.
I just took a quick listen to a number of previews of Nixon's stuff in the iTunes store. Because it was being sold under his name, rather than under the Memphis Jug Band, it was all more recent stuff. So perhaps it's not his best. What I heard was John Lee Williamson--which is to say, I heard Sonny Boy's major influence on a second-tier player. Nixon would certainly be a useful player for a serious harp student to listen to, but Sonny Boy is the source, as far as I can tell. If I've got this backwards, I'm sure you'll let me know. More to be said on this point--and I thank you for mentioning Nixon and forcing me to do at least a little more preliminary research.
Edited to read: Well, sometimes I'm just ignorant, and this is one of those cases. The recent stuff available on his name is NOT where to go for his best; it's stuff that shows up on the search for Sleepy John Estes. (NOT the Memphis Jug Band. I knew this: Sleepy John Estes and Hammie Nixon: that's the act. But I just had a brain freeze.)
Yes, Nixon is indeed a terrific player, and my harmonica education was lacking in his case. I do hear a shared idiomatic approach--him and John Lee--but there's a key difference: John Lee was either singing OR playing. Nixon plays while Estes sings. And even on the basis of three minutes' worth of iTunes previews, I can tell that he's a master of that--of slipping in and around the vocals to create a kind of counterpoint. Plus he's got the deep lonesome sound. For real. Love his stuff.
I would refer any harp student to the first couple of Sleepy John Estes tunes that come up on an iTunes search--Estes's most popular, according to the iTunes popularity meter. Start with "Floating Bridge" and "Airplane Blues." That is some quality harp playing. I don't believe I know any player alive today who can accompany vocals in that particular way. Those early players did indeed lay down some amazing templates.
Sometimes I'm just ignorant. This was one of those times. Thanks for educating me--or helping me educate myself.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 5:59 AM
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kudzurunner
220 posts
Dec 30, 2008
6:08 AM
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After additional iTunes research, I must say: Harper, I'm glad that you mentioned Jazz Gillum. He slipped through my net based on my own limited listening to his stuff during my learning phase. I knew "Key to the Highway" and a couple of other cuts, but my ears are now hearing him in a way that makes me think he clearly DOES belong somewhere in the Top-20.
Harper, I'm serious about asking you for suggestions here--or anybody who knows Gillum's music. And who gets kicked off one of the lists to make space for him. Carey Bell? You tell me, guys. We've got the makings of a seriously great debate here. I'm ready to revise the lists. Quality harp playing prevails.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 6:09 AM
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JTThirty
8 posts
Dec 30, 2008
4:14 PM
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Yeah, Adam, you've pegged Gary Smith dead on. He's pretty much unapologetically a Little Walter disciple type (not slavish imitator), but he was just so influential to so many harp players out there on the West Coast that it'd be hard to ignore his importance.
Anyway--
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superchucker77
118 posts
Dec 31, 2008
8:31 AM
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I'm afraid that you left someone out Mr. Gussow.
Benjamin Darvill (aka Son of Dave) is one of the most original blues harp players that I have heard. Surely his "Devil Take My Soul" alone should grant him passage into the list. At least as an honorable mention. He has three solo albums,he is a master of microtonality (in my opinion), and, and, he wears a nice blues hat :)
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Brandon Bailey
Superchucker77's Youtube
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Zhin
93 posts
Dec 31, 2008
6:17 PM
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I'm with Brandon about this. Son of Dave is very cool. He's got the attitude and loads of space in his style of playing.
An honorable mention would be good.
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harmonicanick
97 posts
Jan 04, 2009
3:29 PM
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Adam,
I know you said there are european harp players too many to mention, but I have to propose:
Paul Lamb (& The Kingsnakes) as a true blues harmonica player of exceptional ability...I know he has played with Brownie Mcgee
i hope you approve
happy New Year
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Chris Jones
7 posts
Jan 04, 2009
3:46 PM
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Nick,
Paul Lamb is in hon. mention. Is there any of Muddy's bunch not in any of the lists? If so I haven't noticed.
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Patrick Barker
158 posts
Jan 04, 2009
9:06 PM
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Just putting an idea out here- I think it help beginners to put one of the best songs for each player by there name for the first ten or twenty (like Little Walter- Juke, James Cotton- Creeper Creeps again etc.) since it can be pretty hard for beginners to try to absorb whole albums from each person in the top 20. That way its easier for beginners to find out who they like before trying to get into players they don't like as much.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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Patrick Barker
159 posts
Jan 04, 2009
9:21 PM
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I'm looking at one of my favorite harmonica mix CD's (Blues Masters Vol. 4: Harmonica Classics) and I see a couple names on there not on the list (but you got almost all of them). Some of the ones I don't see on the list are Lazy Lester, Billy Boy Arnold (although I can't say I've ever heard of him besides on the CD), Big John Wrencher (haven't hear of him outside the CD either), Sam Phillips (same with him; the CD also says this is the only single issued under his name so not much support for him). I think these guys besides Lazy Lester are somewhat obscure though.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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Patrick Barker
160 posts
Jan 05, 2009
6:52 PM
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Almost forgot- Taj Mahal, albeit famous for his guitar and singing, also plays some awesome harmonica (especially on his album called "Taj Mahal").
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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GermanHarpist
42 posts
Jan 06, 2009
2:14 AM
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Patrick, I think too adding the url of one or two of the best songs of each player would help checking them out.
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http://www.youtube.com/germanharpist
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kudzurunner
230 posts
Jan 06, 2009
9:00 AM
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I left Lazy Lester off the list. I don't like his playing. Sterling Magee and I once opened for him at Manny's Carwash in New York City. His playing was not impressive. My list is whimsical, as I note right at the beginning. Here is one place where my whimsy exercises itself. Ditto for Big John Wrencher and Good Rockin' Charles. They are OK players. My third list isn't exhaustive.
I was sure that I'd put Billy Boy Arnold in the Hon. Mention category. I'll do that. He certainly should be there.
I'm not sure about Taj. I have to hear more. I do think that John Hammond, Jr. should be there, though, and I'll put him in.
I think the "three best songs" list would be a terrific addition. Problem is, at this point I just don't have the time. But we'll make it happen, by and by.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2009 9:01 AM
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superchucker77
122 posts
Jan 06, 2009
9:58 AM
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What about Benjamin Darvill (aka Son of Dave)?
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Brandon Bailey
Superchucker77's Youtube
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2009 9:59 AM
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Spl20
5 posts
Jan 07, 2009
11:38 PM
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Adam, I looked over your list and the criteria. How bout the late great Pat Ramsey. I heard JR play many times and the first time I heard Pat I knew where it came from. I heard Magic play WJ, no disrespect to MD (who has got to one of the nicest people I've ever met) but Pat smoked that little ditty!!! and made it his own.
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harper
15 posts
Jan 10, 2009
10:47 AM
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I'm certainly no expert on Jazz Gillum's music, but I personally would take Jimmy Reed out of the second ten and put Gillum in instead. Yes, I know. Reed is important in the history of the blues, and I'm sure he inspired a lot of people to take up the harmonica. There's no doubt about it. But let's get serious; he's really the Bob Dylan of blues harmonica. His playing is imprecise, rythmically simplistic, and almost too easy from a technical viewpoint. I vote Reed out!
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harpnoodler
4 posts
Jan 10, 2009
3:49 PM
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Personally, I get a bit leery of top-ten musician lists for a couple of reasons. I think it's possible to be more objective when we talk about influence, but BEST is tricky, especially because newer players build on the hard-won discoveries of the old greats. Are we trying to be objective? I'm more interested in the idiosyncratic personal lists.
Also, there are players whose virtuosity is unquestioned, but whose sound just leaves me cold. At the risk of being banished forever, I have to say that while I am in awe of the surgical precision and unwavering control of SBW 2's playing, it's not a harp sound that particularly appeals to me. It's the old "I wish I could play like that and then I wouldn't."
Put Sugar Blue in that group for me as well.
Then there's the players who made us want play, who moved us with their music, even if they don't number among the Great Ones. For me, it was a player who I guess is relative unknown --as I suspect many great harp players are-- Rick Jeffries. He's a Canadian who played with Dutch Mason in the 1970's. I heard him on a record called "Wish Me Luck", where he played a raunchy, vibrato-heavy sound, easy on the reverb that sounded a bit like Cotton on "Hard Again", which remains my favourite blues side to this day. Last I saw him was at a club in Toronto in the early 80's. He walked with two canes, arthritis I think, but still played a couple of nice sets. I owe him a great debt for introducing me to the blues and the harmonica. Another mention goes to a Winnipeg player and a heluva guy with monster Chicago tone, Gord Kidder.
For what it's worth, here's my (very personal) list of well-known players that make my (not necessarily blues)"Harp Heroes" list:
John Lee Williamson
Sonny Terry
George Smith
Little Walter
Big Walter
James Cotton
Paul Butterfield
Norton Buffalo
Howard Levy
Carlos Del Junco
The honourable mention list is, of course, huge but I'll name a few:
Junior Wells
Kim Wilson
John Popper
Brendan Power
Mike Stevens
and my newest discovery,
Jason Ricci
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2009 4:15 PM
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harpnoodler
5 posts
Jan 10, 2009
4:09 PM
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Ah crap, I left out the reason I created the honourable mention list: Rick Estrin.
I love his economical, tasteful playing. And while I'm here: Charlie Musselwhite.
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Warbleman
46 posts
Jan 10, 2009
10:01 PM
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I think Jason Ricci is probably the best harmonica player in the world; the way he combines elements such as speed, soulfullness, overblowing, tone, and originality while still keeping one foot in the blues is astonishing. At the same time, I understand that the reason he is only in the honorable mention list is because he's simply too young to be on a list next to say, Little Walter. But in a few years I think every single one of us will be convinced he's the best thing to come along for this instrument since Little Walter.
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kudzurunner
235 posts
Jan 11, 2009
7:43 AM
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The Reed/Gillum switch isn't unreasonable, but I'd probably have to switch out Carey Bell and keep Reed. I went back to listen to Reed recently and his best stuff is much better than even I'd realized. It's "simple," but his control, phrasing, microtonal subtleties, etc., are inimitable. I don't think Stevie Wonder or James Cotton--their great high-note stuff--could have happened without Jimmy Reed. His range isn't large, though.
Son of Dave is an interesting nomination. Give me three songs to listen to.
I know Jason loves him, but I'm not a big fan of Pat Ramsey.
I am, however, as everybody knows, a very big fan of Jason Ricci. It would not surprise me if in ten years he seems like a shoo-in for the second-10 list, or maybe better. We're lucky to have him.
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superchucker77
124 posts
Jan 11, 2009
9:02 AM
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Here are three Son of Dave Songs:
Hellhound
Rollin' and Tumblin'
So Good So Wrong
And if those don't work for you, here are a few more
Devil Take My Soul
Red Afro
Hip Harp
Just look for them on itunes.
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Brandon Bailey
Superchucker77's Youtube
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2009 9:04 AM
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oda
4 posts
Jan 11, 2009
11:34 AM
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I can't even begin to debate you guys on the same level as you're so inclined to expect, as I'm still a learning blues dude. However, I do have around a lot of Albums of blues music from a lot of the artists listed in this thread. One name I did not see listed is "Alfred Harris" the only place I've heard him appear is on Big Walter Horton's 'Harmonica Blues Kings'
What are your thoughts on him? I personally really dig his tracks.
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Li'l Stinker
1 post
Jan 11, 2009
1:35 PM
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I must protest! Why would you take Jimmy Reed out of the top 20? He changed the way people play the harmonica! If you play any top octave first position at all you have Reed to thank! And yeah, his style may be "simplistic" but it's also passionate and soulful! You can't teach soul!
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harper
16 posts
Jan 12, 2009
1:41 PM
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Actually, Reed wasn't the first person to play top octave blues. He may have used it more persistently than other harp players and at a time when that style had gone out of favor, but it was pretty common in prewar days. El Watson, George Williams, and Blues Birdhead all used the technique to good effect. And if you really want some top notch top octave playing I suggest listening to "Little Low Woman" by Sonny Boy I.
I will say, however, that if Kudzurunner finds merit in Reed's work then perhaps there's something I've overlooked. It might be worth my while to take another listen...
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Harp_Fan
1 post
Jan 13, 2009
10:15 AM
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Fisrt off, _I_ am the one and only original HarpFan, but I had to change my name, 'cause Adam's site now
no longer allowed me to log in and/or post "anonymously"; my name had already been taken, by me, and if I'd have wanted to be sly, I'd have gone by HarpFan II but nobody 'cept Adam would have got it. Get it?
Good.
Anyhow, would someone throw me a freakin' bone?
Earlier, Adam posted some of what _may_ be called revisionist blues history. He's the scholar, so we'll leave it to him to elucidate us. I've yet to form a opinion - rather - I _have_ an opinion, but I'm keepin' it to myself. For now.
There are at least three things I love about this site:
1) It's about blues. One more time: B-L-U-E-S. Lowdown, dirty, mistreatin' blues? Lonesome blues? Low and lomesome? Cryin' the blues? Moanin' the blues? Wailin' the blues? _Preachin'_ the blues? Is there a trend? Call it "modern" all ya want, but there'll _never_ be any mistakin' it: it's _still_ the blues. Plain as the nose on your face. You know it like the back of your hand. 'Cause once you get the blues, you _never_ completely ... In Sonny Boy's words, "You name it your 'mammy' if you wanna." What are the two things that Europeans will kill for? Blue jeans (knockoffs? Calvin Klein fakes?) and blues (or it's bastard stepchild - rock). Does _that_ come as any surprise? Blues was here before we were born, and will still be here long after we're gone. Blues is both an idiom and a tradition. America has the blues. What has anybody else got? Ha. Don't want it, don't need it. Got my blue jeans on right now, matter of fact. Ain't got no bell bottoms tho. Guess I got them bell bottom blues. Oh yeah, there wouldn't _be_ no harmonica blues if it weren't for the blues. Any red blooded American knows it. "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." I think Sachmo went to his grave sayin' that...
2) It's about harmonica blues.
3) It's scholarly in nature, or at least quasi-scholarly, but that's what I'm aimin' to find out, _early in the mornin'_...
Anyhow, our esteemed host Adam says that:
"Ah, but then there's John Lee Williamson, the real original Sonny Boy. Remember that Rice Miller tried
to capitalize on the Sonny Boy name; that's how good John Lee was in his own time. Jr. Wells and Little
Walter both come directly out of JLW. Listen to LW's "The Stuff You Gotta Watch." Early unamplified LW is basically fancied-up JLW. (I personally think that JLW was perhaps the best player of "fills".)
That's the bone I'm about to pick. I decided to finally glance for the first time at my copy of Robert Palmer's book _Deep Blues_: A Musical and Cultural History of The Mississipi Delta_. Now I don't bow to him nor anybody else. Just as soon shake him off like the dust. _Nevertheless_, he took the time to interview Robert Lockwood in a sensitive and intelligent way. He did alot of other things, too. The book also includes a great deal of musical history regarding postwar Chicago and Detroit, amongst other places. The subtitle of the book should have probably referred to that.
But Palmer's book is probably the place to START my little discussion:
"'Sonny Boy'" is of course Rice Miller, not the then-popular blues recording star John Lee 'Sonny Boy' Wiliamson; how Rice Miller became Sonny Boy Wlliamson 'the second' is somewhat of a mystery. Max Moore claimed a few years before he died that it was _his_ idea for Miller to broadcast as 'Sonny Boy
Williamson,' and none of the many bluesmen who knew Miller from the late twenties onward remember him
using the name before the early forties. On the other hand, Miller insisted until his dying day that he was 'the only Sonny Boy, _the_ Sonny Boy'" and that John Lee Williamson, who was at least fifteen years his junior, had appropriated the 'Sonny Boy' tag from him before moving to Chicago in 1937. The musical evidence indicates that Miller had perfected his uniquely sensitive and speech like harmonica style long before he heard John Lee Williamson's more instrumentally conceived harp solos on records. One searches Miller's recordings in vain for hints of John Lee Williamson's influence, but in 1947 John Lee apparently attempted to cash in on Miller's popularity in the South by recording a version of the King Biscuit Time theme song as 'King Buscuit Stomp,' with Mississippi guitarist Big Joe Williams accompanying him. In the harp solos on that tune, there are gritty tremolos that suggest Williamson was copying Miller's style, and one can hear even more vivid Miller echoes in Williamson's 'Alcohol Blues,' made the same year."
The key phrases are perhaps:
"One searches Miller's recordings _in vain_ for hints of John Lee Williamson's influence, but in 1947 John
Lee apparently attempted to cash in on Miller's popularity...by recording a version of the
King Biscuit Time theme song as 'King Buscuit Stomp'...there are gritty tremelos that suggest Williamson was copying Miller's style, and one can hear even more vivid Miller echoes in Williamson's 'Alchohol Blues' [I have italicized "in vain" for further emphasis.]
[Adam, at this point I have an observation: in your "CLASSIC HARMONICA BLUES: the albums I learned from," I see _no_ reference to John Lee. I also have an admission: I'm probably only familiar with about five of John Lee's numbers. Another bone: How in God's name could you _exclude_ all of Sonny Boy's Chess sides? That's a travesty, or unrealistic, and _that's_ an understatement_. More on what I (and perhaps Robert Palmer I suppose) might say about that later.
Now's the time, Adam, as we say, to offer up your "proof." It's in the tasting. I'm completely open-minded. I'll go out and buy the CD of the one John Lee vinyl that I own (beings my turntable broke long ago). I'm ready to listen. I'm all eyes (and ears). _Your proposal; now's your turn to
pony-up.
The _casual_ ready may be asking, at this juncture, "what's the Harp_Fan's 'harping' all about? Well, when I proposed my "A List," I think I may have gotten some subterfuge from Adam, not about the A List, but the criteria, and that mildly annoys me. If I am mistaken, then so be it, and I'll happily stand corrected. We've seen some other subterfuge here (not Adam's) that needs to go on record. More about that, maybe, later, too.
When I asked Adam to modify this site's "Mission" statement, he kindly obliged. Or put differently, when I asked him - in a PM - how in God's name could Sonny Boy be _excluded_ from the "Mission" statement, he promptly added him. Adam himself will testify to that. Now I'm curious what might be his response to the "latest." I can't fathom how nothing by King Curtis made "CLASSIC HARMONICA BLUES: the albums I learned from." That's inexplicable. The King's "Soul Serenade" and "Memphis Soul Stew" come to mind, along with his monumental "Foot Pattin'" and "Midnight Blue" - both of which stand head and shoulders with Sonny Boy's "Trust Me, Baby" and "Mighty Long Time" in a certain abstract sense. I guess what I'm askin' is if Ray Charles found his way, which he absolutely should, why not a sax mega-giant like Curtis?
Now I'm really gonna put a (metaphorical) stick in the eye - in terms of the grossest omission of all w/r/t youtube.com (not respecting pirated "official" LP releases) that I see on Adam's "My Top Favorites 18 Videos":
Muddy Waters & James Cotton - Got My Mojo Working (1966)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91Qj870HHk
I mean this thing puts blisters on my eyeballs and honey in my ears. This is THE place to start if you
want to (see) and listen to harmonca blues. Play it LOUD. [If that won't get your mojo workin', then
well, your mojo just don't work, probably never has, and never will.] Next go to Sonny Boy's and then
Butterfield. Problem is, Butterfield can't blow like Cotton or sing like Muddy. No problem, Butterfield's worth every listen anyway ... And NOBODY blows "like" Sonny Boy. There will be "imatators" galore of Little Walter, but like Johnny Cash said of Bob Dylan: "Often emulated, never imitated," or something close to that. Sonny Boy, at least to my knowledge, HAS no imitators. It doesn't surprise me that I'm setting on my desk a copy of Cotton's CD titled _Mighty Long Time_, getting ready to listen to the title track, to discover one more time that he gives a soulful interpretation of Sonny Boy's original, but that I'd rather hear the original. As per M Dick, I came up listening to him as an integral part of J. Geils, and one of the main reasons, if not _the_ main reason, why I love(d) that band so much. So after the Cotton and Sonny Boy vid (Bye Bye "live" bird which unfortunately pales compared to the beautiful Chess recording) it'd be a toss up between Butterfield & Dick. Both can be beautiful. I wish there were Little Walter vids.
Even a musical "child" knows that there's inevitably something "derivative" about every great musician. I know that's not the issue. To a greater or lesser degree, just about everything and everyone in all creation is somehow "derived." I suppose the ultimate question is, given the _choice_, or choosing, _where_ does one _seek_ one's origins?
It's like everything else: a matter of taste. And since we are especially fond of Herr Nietzsche at this forum, "All of life is taste and tasting," as Friedrich lamented. Furthermore, as Herman Hesse would have us do, "Every truth demands to be inverted": so "Without life, music would be a mistake." -Yours Truly
Back to origins, back to the beginning ... "Presence," that is the one thing that stands out in my mind about what a great harmonica player must have: presence. And, of course, maybe "presence" is the one thing, uniquely, emotionally, creatively, that the sound of harmonica -in particular - brings to blues. So when Adam implicitly left that little epithet off his "Top-10 list based on criteria, implicit or explicit," then I felt it was my job to make it explicit. One can only hope that he would follow suit. Just teasin'.
I think there are about four "kinds" of harmonica (performance) presences (now using the word in a different sense) possible, and they depend upon ambience:
a) outdoors ( a la back porch or picnick or barbeque
or street corner)
b) studio (a la Chess studios)
c) soundstage (a la various - take your pick - "live"
or whatever)
d) club (a la clubs in Chicago)
Maybe those four affect "Top-10 list based on criteria, implicit or explicit" (along w/ amped or unamped).
I have a new "A List": Sonny Boy Williamson. Sonny Terry deserves honorable mention. Then there's the list called "Others."
However, I am open to listening to more Little Walter, _Boss Blues Harmonica_ I think is the LP, I have it on vinyl but not CD. But if someone says, "yeah, you gotta do that, then I'm sayin', "Get out your Sonny Boy records - at least 4 or 5 of them!"
I'm glad that Adam posted the reference to the _Midnight Special_ album by Sonny Terry & Brownie McGee since that includes "Sonny's Squal" which, I believe, now correct me if I'm wrong, also goes by the name "Whoopin' the Blues?" It would be nice to collect a list, Adam, of Sonny Terry & Brownie McGee's "essential" LP's. I think it would include about a half dozen. The difficulty is that they were relatively prolific as recording artists. The companion LP to _Midnight Special_, _Back To New Orleans_ would also be on that short list.
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Godamn that Muddy & Cotton (1966) video is the hottest thing I've ever seen on youtube. Actually probably the hottest blues performance I've ever seen in my life. Maybe it's a "Black" thing. Doesn't seem anything "derived" or "affected" or "derivative" about it. Makes you wanna scream & jump & holler. I'll be Godamned if YOU can sit still and listen to it LOUD. Keep preachin' the blues is all I can say.
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One last note: seems there was a "studio" presence at Chess Records that is un-nerving. Inimitable. I wonder if the same must have been said of the "clubs" in Chicago?
Another POKE: somebody plays too "fast" might make me nervous. And I don't consider myself a "nervous" person. Nobody else does, either. Not at all. Reminds me of "hysterical," and we'd rather leave the histrionics to the biatches, if ya' don' min'.
Glad Tidings,
Paul
PS: I couldn't saw a harp to save my life, so ya'll are maybe much better informed than I...
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kudzurunner
237 posts
Jan 13, 2009
11:05 AM
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Harp_Fan (Paul):
I honestly can't tell whether you're attacking me or praising me, but you've got.......energy.
My "classic harmonica blues" page (aka, "The albums I learned from," or whatever I called it) was explicitly designed NOT to be definitive. I went to my record cabinet and pulled dozens of albums off the shelf--the albums that are actually a part of my collection and saw the most focused attention from me during my learning years. I was delighted to find that many of the albums are available as CDs (as opposed to the no-longer-available vinyl I've got) from Amazon. I thought about how useful it would have been to me, back when I was learning, if a harmonica pro like Butterfield or Jerry Portnoy had told me "This is the stuff I listened to." So I created a page that reflected my very personal perspective.
Unfortunately, some of the very good stuff that I listened to--including three volumes of John Lee (Sonny Boy I) Williamson on Blues Masters and Dan Smith on Arhoolie (or Folkways?) aren't available on CD. I tried to find good equivalents on CD, but I couldn't. So they're not there. I'm obviously--and genuinely--trying to help people and you feel the need to castigate me for not helping people in precisely the way you feel they ought to be helped. Give me a f---ing break.
As for King Curtis: great point. SOUL TWIST is the album I learned from. It must be out in the garage. I'll put an Amazon icon up there when I get the time. My partner, Sterling Magee, played with Curtis and told many Curtis stories, some of which I put into my book, MISTER SATAN'S APPRENTICE. Sure: I love Curtis. I copied a few of his riffs. His version of "Night Train" is the one that I transcribed/adapted in the lesson on that song that I offer on this website.
When you speak of "My Top Favorites 18 videos," you're speaking about my YouTube channel, not this website. Here you're being....well, silly. "Top Favorites" is YouTube's term for videos that I happen to have come across in the course of my YT surfing and like enough to want to go back to. In no way does that list reflect a considered canon of great all-time blues harmonica videos. The Adam Gussow you're attacking on this point isn't me; he's a hallucination. Please don't blame me for what's going on inside your head.
As for the Sonny Boy I and II debate: I got my info here from Nat Riddles and from Nat's teacher, or one of Nat's teacher, blues harmonica player and scholar Bob Shatkin. (The late Bob Shatkin.) As far as Shatkin was concerned, Rhythm Willie was the source and the two Sonny Boys were just derivative afterthoughts. I wouldn't know.
http://www.patmissin.com/articles/AHN5.html
I do know that many blues scholars consider Palmer's DEEP BLUES--your source for the Sonny Boy info--less than accurate, although it was important in its time and is terrifically readable. Robert Jr. Lockwood played with Rice Miller and would quite naturally have been a partisan. John Lee's playing is on record at least 5-10 years before Miller's, if I'm not wrong.
I'm glad you love Rice Miller's playing. I do too. He's one of the all-time greats. Nothing on my website can possibly be taken to suggest that I believe anything other than this.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 AM
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Harp_Fan
2 posts
Jan 13, 2009
12:12 PM
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I got about halfway through reading your post...had to comment...'course I'm tossing a bone...your sight is EASILY the best website I can think of...and I've had some NICE ones over the years to involve myself in...not talking 'bout LesbianLoversInBondage.com, either...but I'm razzin' ya too at the same time...
Lemme finish readin' ... 'course I'm TRYIN' to provoke ya ... but all in fun...
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Harp_Fan
3 posts
Jan 13, 2009
1:02 PM
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Wrong.
Now it's gettin' personal. Maybe.
I'm not attackin' anyone.
As per your: "Please don't blame me for what's going on inside your head...As for the Sonny Boy I and II debate: I got my info here from Nat Riddles and from Nat's teacher, or one of Nat's teacher, blues harmonica player and scholar Bob Shatkin. (The late Bob Shatkin.) As far as Shatkin was concerned, Rhythm Willie was the source and the two Sonny Boys were just derivative afterthoughts. I wouldn't know."
Nothin' goin' on in anybody's head. Cept yours? You've written and published books on the subject; you've asked for spirited debate; and now you got one. Cease with the (VERY near) ad hominems. Since you're the man who's the published writer on blues, and you've made claims about Sonny Boy I, and II, in writing, would you care to back them up, or is links to websites and one sentence book reviews all I get?
You told me before I was "wrong" about something and then you righted your Mission statement exactly on account of what I was "wrong" about. Never once did you say, "Well Paul, you WERE right." Hm. No biggie. We're all men here. We can take it.
You're also launching your brain into Robert Lockwood, when he bears absolutely no relavence to Palmer's comments on Rice Miller: his statements that I've referenced are a priori. Read themn again if you don't get the context.
So I'm giving you a break. But you could have said, "Unfortunately, some of the very good stuff that I listened to--including three volumes of John Lee (Sonny Boy I) Williamson on Blues Masters and Dan Smith on Arhoolie (or Folkways?) aren't available on CD. I tried to find good equivalents on CD, but I couldn't. So they're not there. I'm obviously--and genuinely--trying to help people and you feel the need to castigate me for not helping people in precisely the way you feel they ought to be helped. Give me a f---ing break" EARLIER ... But you didn't. No biggie - I gave you the opportunity - or you took it - to clarify things - before you started leading some people down blind alleys (for lack of a better expression) perhaps?
I'm not castigating anybody about jack.
You're way off on the "innacuracies" of Palmer unless you BACK IT UP. Again, in my sole citation, he's stating his _opinion_ based upon recored evidence. You are not. So please be so kind as to name the song titles and LP's and 78's or whatever, or, elsewise, stick to deceased secondary sources but cite them when you do so. That is, ALL of us would probably now like to know why you consider Rice Miller derivative of John Lee??? Is it based upon heresay? That's what your comments imply.
OK. Backing up: Adam, you've got this website and a harmonica career. You post up a Top Ten list. Then you suggest crtieria and a debate. Then you mention specifics. Then someone such as myself (comments) asks about something, and what I get is more subterfuge.
I DIDN'T say obfuscation. I said subterfuge. The other expression is "beating around the bush" but that takes too many keystrokes!
Now I'm obviously no blues scholar. But I do know that "Robert Lockwood's bias," as you put it, has no bearing on any of the subjects at hand. Or Palmer's scholarship, for that matter. If you'll read the relevant chapter you'll see that.
I only mentioned the Lockwood interview to put Palmer in context - as a man who was at least willing to go out and give a major blues player (for Chess records) a decent interview. What would you have had me done differently???
I think you missed the whole point: what did you think of the Muddy/Cotton video?
Now it's MY turn to follow the link you've kindly provided and do a little more research on my own.
None of this is really about "who's the best so-and-so" anyway. I think everybody recognizes that. To me, the casual observer, you've got this website and opened it up to discussion. So instead of this BS about "What's goin' on all up inside Paul's head" can't we stick to something more pleasant? Have I, or have I not, given you some observations to THINK ABOUT - LEGITIMATE CONCERNS? THOUGHTS WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION AND REFLECTION? OF RESEARCH? Is THAT what irks? AND, WELL, I NEVER MET ANY ADAM GUSSOW so he's NOT a figment of my imagination, real, contrived, or otherwise. FAIR? Maybe PAUL is the one dancing in somebody else's head?
Best,
Paul Petersen
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Harp_Fan
4 posts
Jan 13, 2009
2:08 PM
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And as per "a considered canon of great all-time blues harmonica videos," again, I posited youtube videos per se, and don't see why you or anybody else should object to that. But I have NEVER seen any harmonica on youtube that bests the performance:
Muddy Waters & James Cotton - Got My Mojo Working (1966)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91Qj870HHk
but I'd be pleased to have some suggestions - by anyone - of those that might. That, I thought, was pretty clear in what I noted above...hopefully I'm not overstating the obvious...
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kudzurunner
239 posts
Jan 13, 2009
2:13 PM
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Paul:
This board has been a good, supportive place. I created it at the request of a participant. I'm a conscientious, responsive steward of what goes on here.
Your very first email to me--not your posts here, but your private email to me--attacked me for having left Sonny Boy Williamson (II) off of my homepage. I get many emails; the length of your email and the stridency of your critique were notable. You took it as something akin to a personal affront that I'd left Sonny Boy off the list.
The truth is, what was on my homepage--the list of three our four "modern masters of the blues harmonica"--was never meant to be a comprehensive list, merely a quick suggestion of my general approach on this website. You took the omission as a personal affront to your harp god.
Your several long posts above come from the same place. Anybody who has watched me at work in my videos and paid attention to the spirit in which I respond to others knows that I welcome input, dialogue, and, yes, challenges.
What I don't welcome is somebody who barges in and assumes the worst of me. That's how you began with me, in your first email, and it's how you've continued here. I appreciate those places where you've found things to praise, but the stridency of your challenges is far in excess of the norm here.
When you speak about the "grossest omission" in my list of YouTube favorites, you're correct: that's not, strictly speaking, an ad hominem attack on your part. It's simply a strong critique of my selection practices based on your own misunderstanding of what a YouTube Top Favorites channel is. But it's consistent, in tone and presumption, with your original email to me. You're not saying: Adam, how about this? You're saying: Adam, how COULD you have gotten it so flagrantly WRONG!? (The ALL-CAPS are part of your M.O.)
I've taken pains, until my most recent post above, not to confuse the messenger with the message. As you yourself pointed out, I was quick to update my homepage on the basis of your suggestion. I also thank you, in my most recent post above, for your suggestion about King Curtis.
I'm happy to refrain, from now on, commenting on what may or may not be going on inside your head. I agree with you. That was a very bad idea.
At this point, you've made your opinions, and feelings, abundantly clear. I should note that when you POST IN ALL-CAPS, IT TENDS TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL AS THOUGH YOU'RE YELLING AT THEM. I don't respond well to people yelling at me. I suspect you don't either.
On the other hand, I respond very well to reasonable suggestions and rational argumentation. I'm not trying to shut down dialogue.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 2:21 PM
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Harp_Fan
5 posts
Jan 13, 2009
2:23 PM
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Now, that the dust is settling, I'm very PLEASED about what I've learned - can't speak for others - I think I'd like to buy a copy of ANY book that discusses King Curtis in detail (preferably a signed copy) since perhaps he's the most "overlooked" sax man of all time. By "overlooked" I mean that he's accessable to anyone, not just blues freaks, and whole generations are going nuts over James Brown and missing him. That's just plain stupid, and I love James Brown to death. Sad and tragic beings, well, there hasn't been a saxaphone player like him since his untimely demise in 1970(?). Maybe a jazzman, I dunno, but a blues and R&B man? I'm beggin', please, somebody name one! I'll go out and buy THAT guy's records right now - if If my money gets refunded when we quickly discover that Curtis blows him/her away. Amen.
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kudzurunner
240 posts
Jan 13, 2009
2:42 PM
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King Curtis had an extremely distinctive tone and way of phrasing. I'm also a big fan of Hank Crawford, Maceo Parker, Stanley Turrentine, and Jimmy Forrest. Lotsa good stuff for harp players in all those guys. Curtis filled the space between r&b sax and rock sax. Recently I got interested in that late 40s/early 50s honking/screaming sax stuff: Hal Singer, Big Jay McNeeley, Joe Houston. "Real Crazy Cool," etc.
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Harp_Fan
6 posts
Jan 13, 2009
3:07 PM
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Adam, I think you are severely off base when you accuse me off believing Sonny Boy this or that to be my "harp God."
I think that your presumptions about my tone & rhetoric & style & "MO" &tc. are absurd.
One wearies of having to use underscores rather than italics and resorts to CAPS out of laziness (or weariness) and suddenly one is an "attacker" or "assailant" or some such rubbish.
I think you may have temporaily taken leave of your sense of humor, and if I've done so for a keystroke here or there, then that is utterly regrettable.
So _now_ you're piling on the gratitude.
Because you don't _know_ the messenger maybe you haven't gotten the message: I took it upon myself to point out what could easily be perceived as an obvious and egregious error in your Mission statement. You took pains to correct it. Had you thanked me for doing so - at that time, instead of _accusing me of being "wrong," and now I'm quoting _you_, Adam, then maybe we would have gotten off on the good foot. I chided you in jest and you apparently took offense. And then thanked me after the fact. Se la vie. No biggie.
Some silliness is that not for an instant have I or anyone else conflated your list of "youtube favorites" with anything definitive. To be brutally honest, I'd ASSUMED (are caps OK? if you please?) that your selections might even be fairly willy nilly. I was using, for the sake of arguement, the term "grossest" as a synonym or substitute for "obvious" or "flagrant" or "hideous" or any other number of superlatives. More importantly, I stand by the statement. I'm _waiting_ with baited breath (humor!) for a counter example. When one is forthcoming, then we'll get back to subject(s) at hand.
I'll ask again, Adam: how was the Muddy/Cotton video? Had you seen it before? Is it, or is it not, "pretty amazing?" (I'd say "glorious" but that'd be too superlative for sensitive readers.)
My my my...
I DID "barge in," yes indeed. But to concatenate that with "assumes the worst" is, well, in my view, perverse. I still have my initial correspondance to you, and your rather abrupt (but reasonably pleasant and thoughtful) reply - I'll pleasantly review it. I have NEVER (sorry - insert underscores for italics) assumed the worst about you, Kind Sir, and would never do so. I reserve that for career criminal and homicidal types.
TO BE FRANK: I THINK THE WEBSITE IS GENIUS. I'M BEING SERIOUS. SO KUDOS TO YOU, ADAM. ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS PROBABLY A TREMEDOUS AMOUNT I (AND MANY OTHERS) COULD/CAN/HAVE LEARN(ED) FROM YOU: AS ADAM THE SUCESSFUL WRITER, AUTHOR, MUSICIAN; & PERHAPS, WERE THE OCCASION TO ARISE, FRIEND. THAT OVERALL SITUATION MAY OR MAY NOT EVER ARISE. WHEN WE RECOGNIZE GENIUS, SOMETIMES, EVEN TO OUR OWN DETRIMENT, WE SOMETIMES HAVE HOPES OF "IMPROVING" UPON IT, EVEN IF EVER SO SLIGHTLY, IN LITTLE INCREMENTS, PERHAPS, AND MAYBE, IN THE PROCESS, IMPROVE OURSELVES, AS WELL. I said that in all caps but it was meant as a wisper. Just teasin'.
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Harp_Fan
7 posts
Jan 13, 2009
3:25 PM
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And apologies for all the caps and quotes and underscores partly because it presumes the reader is unable to add his own inflection. As a writer, one would, as is appropriate, the next day, go back and edit out 3/4 of them. I should have done so. It is offensive to anyone's sensibilities to omit that form of editing. They are also hideous. I sometimes detest the internet, almost as much as email, for that very reason. It can occasionaly make poor writers of those who otherwise might be adept. Or at least gives the appearance, and, I suppose, that's what we have to go by. 'Cept when it comes to the blues perhaps. There's something substantial there - it can't be faked or glossed. Sorta like sexual orientation or something elsewise innate. Adam, you've worn me out. But you're working on a very important literary project, if I understand correctly, so please don't let my caps and underscores and hyperbole get in the way of something far more worthy and pressing of your time: your projects!
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JTThirty
10 posts
Jan 13, 2009
4:17 PM
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We interrupt the Paul and Adam show for this important message: David 'Fathead' Newman played on oodles of blues recordings by oodles of "real" bluesmen, so I think he ranks up there with King Curtis as an influential blues saxman. I'm not going to get anal if anyone disagrees or get upset and I actually enjoyed the debate preceding this post. By the way--Little Walter ruled and still does.
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Harp_Fan
8 posts
Jan 13, 2009
5:04 PM
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JT thanks kindly for the "encouragement" er uh I think. If memory serrves wasn't Fathead a player with Brother Ray? Man, those are some sweet sides (all of them) on Atlantic...there's an aside w/ M Dick in Adam's interview (that virtually recants something I mentioned to my pal 20 years ago) about some re-recorded tunes of Little Richard w/ sax that really further "liven up" (if that's possible!) the "originals." Now, again, if memory serves, Penneman was on Atlantic too...that makes me wonder...Curtis' solo collection is in disarray...I had to buy his 3-cd _Blow Man Blow_ from ebay United Kingdom to avoid paying $85 domestic retail. Some weird _Collectables_ compilation was the only place I could find "Midnight Blue," for like $4.50, and worth about $85 by itself. Anyhow, _BMB_ is a 12"X12" box just like Muddy's Chess 3-cd Box sitting here next to it and contains some fabulous 10"X10" photos. Actually, if I had a "god," it'd be the King, and his poster would be on my wall. Come to think of it, I think I'll have this one in the booklet blown up and framed. I'll caption it with "Texas Horn."
BTW, Little Walter seems to be emulating, at points, Lois Jordan's horn (maybe - somebody's horn for sure) on "Juke," Adam - true? C'mon, Adam, throw me a bone I'm gettin' my butt kicked here for bein' a Sonny Boy Nazi ... Lois Jordan I think belongs in the pantheon w/ the King in a certain sense. Jordan's utube vids are all generally nonpariel!
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rpoe
1 post
Jan 13, 2009
5:10 PM
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Thanks Adam. I dig the intent, the lists/honorable mentions, and the lively debate(s). Really appreciate the ablum listings. All of my favorites from classic to contempory have been covered. Not enough time in the day to listen to them all without becoming unemployed. Peace
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JTThirty
11 posts
Jan 13, 2009
6:06 PM
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We all have our favorites, whether it's chocolate or vanilla. SBW II and Sonny Terry were my main men when I began my harp quest because I didn't have an amplifier and their acoustic tone seemed more accessible. Trying to replicate what they were doing seemed like a simple task. The first blues licks I learned were from those two, but coming anywhere close to what they were putting down was far from simple. Took me awhile to GET the attraction of amplification. I thought that the first Little Walter Lp that I bought was poorly recorded because of the distortion of the harmonica. Once I GOT it, though, that was IT--for me. Oh, yeah, Fathead was an important member of Brother Ray's band, but he absolutely smoke when he was with Freddie King. Anyway--
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Harp_Fan
9 posts
Jan 14, 2009
6:57 AM
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Adam, my apologies for my overheated rhetoric. I reviewed what I'd written, both PM (email) and posts, and I can see that it would be easy to take some of my comments as shrill, my language as combative, my dialogue as overly aggressive &tc. I'm sorry for that. I'm also sorry if the longwindedness was overbearing and/or boring and/or effusive. I promise that was not my original intent. I also assure that I'd be better inclined to relinquish that - permanently.
I _did_ now notice that your "classic harmonica blues" page was expressly stated to be less than comprehensive. I stand corrected.
It's a pity. It's hard, or well nigh impossible to compare a "synthetic" or studio production of harp playing to that in a club setting. Listening to Muddy/Cotton recorded in 1966 in a nightclub (I believe) has _radically_ changed my appreciation of James Cotton, in a highly favorable sense. The later (1970's) work that I've heard on youtube and vinyl seems to either pale by comparison or tends to be self-indulgent. That's a superficial impression and I really do wonder what is on LP by Cotton that I should be checking out?
I think it might be just as hard to compare the playing of a harp frontman to that of an ensemble player. The likes of Sonny Boy and Little Walter and others were obviously both. It has generally been the ensemble atmosphere, especially w/r/t Sonny Boy's Chess recordings, that he really shined, in both respects simultaneously. But if it weren't for the drums, and bass, a guitars, and his singing/lyrics, I think I'd have ever come to enjoy him to such a degree bla bla bla for that reason, perhaps, I favor Sonny Boy as an _artist_, per se, a recording artist, to be more precise, and a performer as well. But as a harp player _sensu stricto_ I think I'm more open to the possibilities of (both) Walters and Cotton. This is getting out of the "short memo" constraints here but I think that Magic Dick's boogie is what I love about him most ("Cruisin' for Love" on the debut LP for instance) in the studio and in an enseble setting. And Dick's cover of the Louis Armstrong tune is remarkable, to say the least. I _really_ need a copy of the early J Geils live LP. I don't think it's ever fair to compare classic blues (Black?) players to modern (White?) ones. Call me a bigot if you want, but it's true, since the context is so frequently completely different.
Adam's Magic Dick telephone interview is both instructive and informative to me when he says, in not so many words, that players who confine themselves (tastewise) to _just_ the harmonica, to the exclusion of other instruments, are at a distinct disadvantage, in his opinion. I couldn't agree more. I'd also be inclined to say the same of players who confine themselves to the most modern motifs, as well. And I, myself, am subject to the same criticism: I live in my own "musical world" as we all apparently do, which is probably even narrower than any accomplished harmonica player, amatuer or pro.
One of the things I love about Adam's playing, and in particular, his perspective, is his truly deep appreciation for so many great musical forms and expressions, although blues & R&B are my particular favorites, not to the exclusion of Jazz, but as a general preference. I was striken by the fact that the website Adam referenced w/r/t Rythym Willie includes Willie's production/adaptation of Louis Armstrong's beautiful dirge, "St James Infirmary," an all time classic. For a more modern, and shockingly poignant and lyrically/musically brilliant rendition of the song I would reference Van Morrison's fairly recent cover. It almost places Van w/ "Jazz greats" IMHO. The singing & playing almost have to be heard to be believed. The production and arrangement are both truly phenomenal. To hear someone "trump" Sachmo (if you'll pardon the expressio) _even_ on the horn (although Van adds a clarinet) almost, uh, literall, brings me to tears.
I personally think Adam's "classic harmonica blues" selections are _fabulous_, without qualification, although about 1/2 of the non-harp LP's I haven't heard and maybe 1/4 of the harp I haven't either. Nevertheless, I just think it's an excellent selection, with the exception of the umbrage I've taken, which I think deserves a fair and honest vetting, that an all-time harp giant, Sonny Boy Williamson, is given a lopsided (at least _so far_)misrepresentation, and, I believe, I might not be alone in that sentiment. But I believe that Adam is saying the same thing of John Lee Williamson, which I'm, I nominally accepting, because I'm largely ignorant of the latter. I'm affronted, but _not_ angered, by the former. Maybe "confused" or "dissapointed" is a better word than "affronted."
Here's what I mean (in the words of Robert Palmer):
"On July 11 [1951], Little Walter, who'd been blowing his harmonica through a cheap amplifier since his earliest appearances on Maxwell Street, used an amp in the studio for the first time. The distortion and sustain the amplification added did for Walter's harp what electricity had done for Muddy's guitar - it transformed a subtle accompanying style into forceful, big-toned lead work. On the more ordinary of the four songs recorded at the session...Walters harp was recorded at a much higher volume than Muddy's [glissening?] slide guitar. It wrapped itself around the vocals, combining the fluidity of a saxaphone with the [remarkable?] chordal richness of an organ. In 'She Moves Me' ... the group achieved an almost eerie immediacy. The engineering on the record is brilliant - a touch of echo blends the sounds of the amplified guitars and harp ever so slightly together, and Muddy's vocal is recored "hot," or close to the overload range, so that it sounds every bit as powerful as the electric instruments." The percussion is a booming bass drumbeat that simply marks each downbeat. ...
'Leonard Chess played the drum,' Muddy explains, 'because my drummer couldn't get the beat on 'She Moves Me'"...
Whatever disdain one might have for Palmer's scholarship, there is no mistaking his extremely sensitive musical perception and undeniable blues acumen. His description is dead on, and one of the best pieces of harp blues "criticisms" I think I've ever seen. Of course, Palmer was also a professional musician (and record producer for Kieth Richards at one time) so maybe that shouldn't come as a great surprise.
Perhaps the key phrase is, "In 'She Moves Me' the group achieved an almost eerie immediacy."
This is WEIRD. This is UNCANNY. That "eerie immediacy" is EXACTLY what I've been describing as "presence." Do you _feel_ the "presence" of a harp player, and his instrument, both emotionally and geographically? I think _that_ is worthy of close consideration. I give my word, I swear to God, I take a solemn oath that this (Palmer's book) is _not_ something I've _ever_ looked at before the day before yesterday, and I evolved my concept of "harmonica blues _presence_" some weeks ago while lamenting, bemoaning, and pondering my internal/external dialogue with Adam and his music and his website. That was the precise source or origin of the elf of my inspiration, and it is why I now consider "presence" to be a crucial and fundamential -nuclear or subatomic - "criteria" for "assesing" or "discoursing" the impact of a blues harpist (and/or musician in general for that matter - but harp in particular because of it's capacity to render the quality of the human voice and human emotions even better than a violin in many instances -particulary within the blues idiom).
Maybe it's not such a big deal. So maybe it's not enough to wrap a book (or your head) around. But my concept of "presence" now supercedes Palmer's "eerie immediacy" because it's more compact, versatile, and functional. On the other hand, I could never compose a book like Palmer's. He is to be commended. I have yet to locate any specific instances of desultory scholarship on his count, but I'd be entirely amenable to duly noting any that should arise, either in printed form or magazine or manuscript or letter or web post.
The last point, for now, that I wanted to make is that Chess Records did even _more_ for Sonny Boy Williamson than it did for Little Walter! Much more, if you want my opinion, which you're indubitably disgusted with by now. So be it. Lament if you want, but lament in vain. But give thanks that this "badgering and pestering," which I very well may have been a part of, has relented to a thoughtful and considered and fruitful _criticism_.
Blow, man, blow!
I'll be waiting for the "evidence," recorded or otherwise (including song titles) that John Lee, and _not_ Rice Miller was the "original," and that Rice Miller was the imitator. I'd also like to learn _more_ about how, and to what extent, Rice Miller "taught" Little Walter how to play - at least in Jacob's early, formative years, which has never been disputed.
Maybe there's another, better perspective. Maybe there are harp Titans, for instance, like Sonny Boy & Sonny Terry, or Orion & Nimrod, respectively. [Pardon me, Sonny, but you are a bit of a nimrod and I think Brownie would agree.] These Titans were then overthrown by the Olympians, Little Walter & James Cotton & Carey Bell, or Zeus & Appollo & Dionysius respectively. Perhaps only by way of "analogy" or by giving further "context" can "rankings" or "preferences" ever be achieved...but that's the rub, no?
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Tuckster
76 posts
Jan 14, 2009
1:07 PM
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Adam-can you direct me to some John Lee W. discography. I don't have very much of him on disc. I'm afraid I pretty much dismissed him,being unaware of his place in history.I thought William Clarke was totally original until I heard George Smith.
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kudzurunner
243 posts
Jan 14, 2009
1:39 PM
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Thanks, Harp_Fan. You've got a lot of passion, many original ideas, and I'm glad to have you here.
Mike Rowe's book CHICAGO BLUES has a lot of info about John Lee Williamson; somewhat less about Rice Miller. Rowe insists on JL's seminal influence and asserts quite directly that Rice Miller took the name "Sonny Boy" from the earlier (if younger) player, at the request of Max Moore, his white sponsor on "King Biscuit Time," precisely to capitalize on the name "Sonny Boy Williamson," which John Lee had been recording under for 4 or 5 years. Make of that what you will. CHICAGO BLUES (originally published in London, 1973, but reissued by DaCapo) can be found in most university libraries, or ordered from Amazon. Pp. 140-141.
I'm sure there are many sides to the story. Why doesn't somebody email Joe Filisko and ask him to post here on this subject? He'd know the answers, I suspect.
When I get the time, I'll try and post info on the three Blues Master LPs of John Lee Williamson that I have at home. They're what I learned from. Hammie Nixon is very much playing in this style, but he too was from the Jackson, Tennessee vicinity. I'm sure it was a regional style.
I did a YouTube video on Chuck "The Cat" Morris, who plays and sings a John Lee W. tune, "Wonderful Time." That was always one of my favorites, and one of the reasons I love him. Listen to John Lee and you suddenly undertand where early Little Walter ("The Stuff You Gotta Watch" and Junior Wells got their stuff.
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kudzurunner
244 posts
Jan 14, 2009
1:46 PM
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There's a two-part documentary on John Lee Williamson on YouTube. Here's a link to the first part. The second part shows up in the "related videos" column:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_PlMhhTZBk&feature=related
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Tuckster
77 posts
Jan 14, 2009
5:33 PM
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Thanks,Adam. Now I know who influenced LW in his early stuff. Can't say he did the same for SBII,maybe a few small things,but SBII was his own man.
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Patrick Barker
164 posts
Jan 14, 2009
7:40 PM
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Buddy Greene is another spectacular harmonica player who I think deserves to be in the honorable mention section, although I understand if you reject him on the basis that he's kind of more of a country guy.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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Leanground
39 posts
Jan 14, 2009
7:48 PM
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I heard an interview where Big Walter claimed to have shown SBW@ "half of what he played" then sought newer approaches
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