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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
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oldwailer
445 posts
Jan 14, 2009
10:46 PM
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That two part YT on SBW was great, Adam--I guess I've never really paid proper attention to him before--because I had too much attention on Rice Miller.
My education in the blues is never going to end--I hope...
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Andrew
71 posts
Jan 15, 2009
12:21 AM
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I've got two "Complete Blues" CDs by Snapper Music. One is SBW I, the other is SBW II, but they both have the same photo of Rice Miller on the front!
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kudzurunner
245 posts
Jan 15, 2009
4:40 AM
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Okay guys, I'm sitting here with my three John Lee Williamson records. Here's the info:
All three were issued by Arhoolie Records. Christ Strachwitz is still alive in the Bay Area (Berkeley/San Francisco), as far as I know, so you might contact him and ask if these are available.
§"Sonny Boy Williamson Vol. 2" (with notes by Paul Oliver, who says, among other things, "From Little Walter to Shakey Jake he [JLW] was a formative influence on a whole generation of blues harp players and did more to shape modern blues harmonica than did any other player." Oliver is the greatest living blues scholar and does not make claims that exceed his knowledge-base.). Cover says "Blues Classics by Sonny Boy Williamson Volume 2" and "Blues Classics 20." Includes cuts like Skinny Woman, T.B. Blues, Train Fare Blues, Stop Breaking Down, Shake the Boogie, Hoodoo Hoodoo...
§"Blues Classics by Sonny Boy Williamson" "Blues Classics 3." Has cuts including Groundhog Blues, Collector Man, Western Union Man, Shotgun Blues, She Don't Love Me That Way, Bad Luck Blues, My Little Machine, Sloppy Drunk Blues, and Check Up on my Baby.
§"Blues Classics by Sonny Boy Wiliamson Volume 3" "Blues Classics 24." Has cuts including My Little Baby, Up the Country Blues, Something Going on Wrong, Miss Stella Brown, Desperado Woman, Sonny Boy's Jump, Sonny Boy's Cold Chills, Wonderful Time, and Little Girl.
Those three albums were extremely important to me and if you haven't gotten yourself a good does of John Lee Williamson, it's about time.
The liner notes on Volume 3 confirm everything I said earlier in this thread about the relationship between Rice Miller and John Lee Williamson. I'm sure these albums, along with Nat Riddles, Bob Shatkin, and Mike Rowe, are where I got my information.
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Harp_Fan
10 posts
Jan 15, 2009
9:24 AM
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Adam, very good. But as far as I can tell, working from memory, "everything" you said earlier in this thread about "the relationship" amounts to, boiling things down, for the sake of discussion is that:
A)Sonny Boy II took his name from Sonny Boy I
B)Sonny Boy II (may have?) "got his influences from Sonny Boy I"
I confess that B) derives from what I called Adam's "subterfuge" earlier, which was a mistake, on my part, and I'd now prefer to call innuendo, or inference, or extrapolation, or, perhaps, in fairness, at least, a point of departure.
AS PER A), that's maybe a triviality - a rose is a rose. And at the risk of repeating, we have what SBWII said to Leonard Chess (which we have an audio recording of): "Godamn it, you name it your 'mammy' if you wanna!"
As per b), to my mind, the crucial issue, we know, so far as reported "evidence," on this thread, zilch.
These are among Adam's requests: "§RECORDED EVIDENCE. ... a player (or the partisans of a player) must be able to convince with the help of recorded evidence." And furthermore, "Don't just gripe; make your best case by supplying evidence." And that's what I've been harping about.
'Cause when Adam says, "Ah, but then there's John Lee Williamson, the real original Sonny Boy. Remember that Rice Miller tried to capitalize on the Sonny Boy name; that's how good John Lee was in his own time," I have to ask myself, given the context, why the insistence that John Lee is the real original?
SBWII was _at least_ 15 years SBWI's _senior_, and much more probably 20 years his senior, which is an atavistic freak of nature, beings we usually call the older "Senior" and the younger "Junior," or I and II respectively. Like everything else, it defies logic.
Repeating: Alec or Alex "Rice" Miller (born Dec 5, 1897 - disputed) was probably 20 years older than John Lee Williamson. By the law of averages, is it fair to ask if SBWII began playing the instrument20 years before SBWI? I think so. But factual history is more important, and recorded evidence would be even better. Song titles are a must.
What I'm saying is this: It's a known fact that Sonny Boy II was playing with Robert Johnson during the Depression. It can be assumed that he was perfecting -or was still perfecting - his form by that time beings he was already 40 years old! On the other hand, John Lee Williamson was just 23 years old when his first record "Good Morning, School Girl", hit the market in 1937. So who influenced who?
Robert Palmer unequivocably claims it was II that influenced I, and Tuckster above has been so kind as to say in five words what it took me five (or more)pages to say: "SBWII was his own man."
I admire Tuckster for that.
Obviously Tuckster, himself, is his own man.
In a nutshell: Rice Miller is the real original Sonny Boy.
Unless/Until I hear the music (and see the song titles) to convince me otherwise, we're stickin' to it.
Probably none of that matters. When listening to the youtube doc that Adam's just posted, even listening to John Lee playing in the background, one can't help but recognize that the man is playing some brilliant harp. And the singing is great.
It seems - at times - but not frequently - that Paul Oliver is an obscurant. He is a greater scholar than Palmer for sure, but he's not nearly as accessible, at times - or perhaps even in general - to the average blues freak. Maybe he rests better with blues officionados. I believe, to be sure, that he _does_ "make claims beyond his knowledge base," as we are all want to do, on occasion, if not in print, then as part of a genteel, human condition, and it could be called, I believe, speculation, or in a less pejorative sense, imagination (and not flights of fancy).
I'll give you a for-instance, now quoting Paul Oliver (from his _Thirty Years of Blues Commentary_):
"...When we hear such an item played with it's medium-blues tempo and its captivating swing we know that the cities about the Great Lakes - Milwaukee, Detroit or Chicago are Sonny Boy's [Rice Miller's] true home, spiritually and musically."
We "know" that??? "Spiritually and musically?" From what knowledge base?
That, from Oliver, is to me at best a flight of fancy or at worst seriously delusional. Sonny Boy II was born in the South, developed his style in the South, spent the majority of his itinerant playing time in the South, lived in the South, and ultimately, as always, returned to the South, to live and play, and finally (as he expressly mourned) chose to die in the South - the day after he'd been river fishin' - right outside West Helena, Arkansas, I think.
You can take the man out of the South, but you can never, ever, take the South out of the man. And _especially_ Sonny Boy. He lived and breathed "Southern," and to try to transplant his "Soul & Spirit" musically and/or whatever, to Chicago, well, yes, he recorded and performed there, true. He had to in order to eat. But if it weren't for the South there wouldn't _be_ any "Great Lakes blues," for lack of a better expression. Oliver has it _all wrong_ here; with due respect for scholarship, if it weren't for Southern and rural blues, first and foremost, Chicago blues wouldn't even exist. I thought that were both prima facie and ultimatum. I have _always_ believed, from the first Sonny Boy (II) I ever heard, that is so often the beauty of his "Southerness," even and especially on his Chess sides, that shone like a star in the dead of night.
What else does Oliver say of SBWII? [And Adam, I'm DELIGHTED that now you've forced me to finally lift TWO un-cracked paperbacks off my dusty shelves - Palmer's & Olivers] Oliver says this:
"Any barriers of culture or years are broken down when Sonny Boy [II] begins to play. His harmonica speaks a language of our time [of ALL time - not just Chicago time - Harp_Fan insists!] tortured, wailing, crying - and strangely beautiful. The effect of his playing is powerfully human and its appeal penetrates national and racial frontiers. His artistry, therefore, forges the link between himself, and his newly won audiences but, clearly, he also enjoins them with his _personality_." [Italics on "personality" I've added.]
Going on, Oliver notes, "A subtle form of blues it is...He was a remarkable success as a musician and as a personality and whilst [whilst? huh?] losing nothing of the formidable elements in his make-up, he endeared himself to his audiences and won new adherents to the blues [such as Harp_Fan] ... He had to be seen as well as heard, at least to enjoy his playing to the full."
There you have it. In five and one-half full pages of ramblings, including some clever and fairly accurate descriptions of the "visual" and tonal and musical aspects of Sonny Boy's performances, Mr. Oliver still can't bring himself to utter the quintessential quality of Sonny Boy's blues, both in person and on record: (powerful) "presence."
So much for scholars. I have about one thing to say to them as a whole: "F___ 'em if they can't take a joke! [Perhaps too strident, but I couldn't RESIST!]
What I do enjoy most about scholars is meeting them on their own terms. And then asking them to meet me on mine, not always in polite terms. They rarely respond. Perhaps it's a case of stupification (on both parts?) [This is borderline humorous - even to me. I must admit or confess or whatever of beaming from ear to ear.]
What I'd like for you to do, Adam, is please be so kind as to suggest which John Lee LP to begin with, if you have a preference. At that point I'm prepared to begin to become a believer (or not) that it was John Lee who was the real original, if indeed it is true, which I'm beggining to doubt, whilst - yep - whilst - enjoying the incredible playing, becoming the second to proclaim, after Adam, that he's the "real original." That could/should be amusing.
I am VERY impressed with John Lee's music. If it's available, preferably on CD, or it's rough equivalent on a few CD's, then I plan to purchase by this Spring, if not much sooner. And what intend, if it's conceivable, is to write an entire chapter on the musical merits and meanderings of John Lee Wiliamson and subsequently post it to my website (which is currently under my construction) beings I "spent" $1,700.00 on (aquired from a benefactor) worth of web design and publishing software (and state-of-the-art video tutorials) in order to advertise the relatively boring business venture I've been involved in for about 20 years.
~~~
Whew. That took real effort. Slap me upside the head, or give me the middle finger if it seems bombastic, stilted, or, worse than anything, boring. Then I'll just spank ya right back...
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Tuckster
78 posts
Jan 15, 2009
9:57 AM
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I'd still like to see Lester Butler in the honorable mention. He and the Red Devils "King King" still gets played regularly by moi. His star shone quite briefly,but I can't ignore him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpTiF0lh0w8
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kudzurunner
246 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:02 AM
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I've never said anything about SB II's playing deriving from SB I. I view them as two entirely different artists, with completely distinct styles. Exceptional artists, both. The harp stylings of Rice Miller, at least to my ears, sound nothing like the harp stylings of John Lee Williamson.
The claims I've made about John Lee's importance derive somewhat from my own listening, but also--as I've taken a scholar's pains to point out--from two other respected scholars, Paul Oliver and Mike Rowe. [Edited to add: Nothing I've written, here or anywhere else, can be taken to mean that Rice Miller is of LESS importance to the history of blues harmonica than John Lee. Rice Miller is hugely important. He's a master. I love what he does. Everybody loves what he does. His place in the pantheon is beyond argument. The fact that somebody else was on record, and well known as, Sonny Boy Williamson, at least four years before Rice Miller was on record as that, has absolutely no relevance here. I called John Lee Williamson "the real original Sonny Boy" in an earlier post because that is a short-hand way of acknowledging the indisputable fact (as far as I know) that he recorded first under this name. Since many harmonica players don't even KNOW that there's a John Lee Williamson, my desire to serve harmonica students everywhere required me to at least mention his name.]
As for the provenance of Rice Miller's "Sonny Boy Williamson" name: I wouldn't know. I'm merely repeating, in this case, what those two reputable scholars have claimed. Palmer has claimed something else. There's a dispute between scholars, apparently. It's not one that particularly interests me, but it clearly does interest you, and there's nothing wrong with that. I encourage further research on this. Joe Filisko, as I suggested, might have something useful to contribute, since he really knows the prewar harp players.
I suppose it does need to be pointed out that John Lee Williamson's last name was Williamson, whereas Rice Miller's (or Alec Miller's) last name was Miller. I'm not sure I understand how, or why, a guy named Alec Miller would have called himself Sonny Boy Williamson BEFORE a guy named Williamson called himself Sonny Boy Williamson, as I believe you're claiming. But perhaps Robert Palmer addresses that curious fact.
Actually, the person we should all be asking about this is David Evans. He was my dissertation reader and he is a blues scholar's blues scholar. He gets his facts right. I'll email him when I get the chance and see if he has anything to contribute.
Peace.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 11:02 AM
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JTThirty
12 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:43 AM
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Adam's right and Paul's wrong. Alec stole John Lee's stage name because John Lee had product on the market being played throughout the South and Alec 'Rice' Miller didn't and he knew he could pass himself off as Sonny Boy Williamson. Alec Miller and John Lee were developing their unique individual styles independent of each other and both wrote some marvelous blues songs which have become classics, with John Lee having the edge on sheer output. Plenty of harp players came up emulating what John Lee was putting down because the blues harp was suddenly at the forefront in terms of lead instruments on the bandstand. It was not uncommon for musicians back in the '50s (especially bluesmen) to bill themselves as brighter stars than they were when playing venues that they figured that no one would be the wiser. Plenty of tales out on the West Coast of that happening, especially since few Midwest and Southern bluesmen trekked out there. Even Big Walter claims that he was once Little Walter until Marion Jacobs took his name. So, he became Big Walter (and this is from his own mouth).
Oh, and, I agree with Tucker. Can't leave out Lester Butler. Anyway--
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kudzurunner
247 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:44 AM
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IMPORTANT: JOHN LEE WILLIAMSON'S MUSIC
Guys: I'm pleased to tell you that I emailed Arhoolie Records this morning and they've already come back at me with some heartening news: all three of John Lee (Sonny Boy I) Williamson's albums--the ones I refer to above--are still available.
Here's what the email said:
"The LPs are all still in print. The prices are as follows:
BC 24 - $20
BC 20 - $20
BC 3 - $10
You can order them by phone at 1-888-274-6654, or by sending an email to order@arhoolie.com"
So get your turntables oiled up! The mother lode has been found.
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Harp_Fan
11 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:46 AM
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Actually, if you look at what I wrote just above in the top of my post:
"AS PER A) that's maybe a triviality - a rose is a rose."
I have very little or no concern about who's name came from where.
Not much interested in scholarship. It seems like too little return on investment...just seemed like maybe you were inferring that, well, something else...
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Harp_Fan
12 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:51 AM
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It was Adam's statement that "John Lee is the real original - that's how good John Lee was in his own time," that I saw as skewed.
SBWII is EVERY BIT as much real and original as SBWI, or am I mistaken there, too?
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Harp_Fan
13 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:59 AM
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Memo on scholarship: just seems like really good scholars do a lot, accomplish much, we owe gratitude to! ... or, in the other case, some scholars just pile up rubbish...
My PERSONAL temprement isn't suited for scholarship because unlike some others I DID inhale...I'm glad it somebody else's bag, is all...
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Harp_Fan
14 posts
Jan 15, 2009
11:06 AM
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memo 2: stuff is coming to me in such an effusive fashion that it gets typed in effusively, to the detriment of the "prose," if we can flatter it rather that call it scribblings...
Nonetheless Adam you're to be highly commended for addressing most of the core concerns and I hope that there IS more scholarship, or simply valid information, that comes of these types of inquiries...the extent of your own personal resources (both intellectual and on vinyl) seems to makes you a very "main guy to look to" if time permits... so Thanks Very Kindly to Adam and All...
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kudzurunner
248 posts
Jan 15, 2009
11:31 AM
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This thread is now locked. Sorry about that. Some things just need to be done. Please carry on your friendly dialogue in other threads.
--The Administrator, when he's forced to be
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kudzurunner
255 posts
Jan 20, 2009
11:38 AM
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After what seemed to me like an appropriate cooling-off period, I have unlocked the thread. I will be contributing less frequently to it than in the past, but, as always, I welcome thoughtful contributions. Passion is welcome, too, as long as it aligns with the "note about board etiquette" that I wrote into the board description several weeks back. We have a great deal to gain by freely exchanging our ideas, but the value of that free exchange is contingent on each of us, no matter how much we may disagree with one another, remembering to be civil.
Memo to super777: I haven't had a chance to check out those Son of Dave cuts--I've only heard one by him--but I thank you for the excellent suggestions.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 11:44 AM
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oldwailer
460 posts
Jan 20, 2009
7:13 PM
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LOL!!
OK--so I'm a little behind on the story here on "As the Harp Turns" Could somebody loan me the Cliffs notes?
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 7:14 PM
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Chris Jones
17 posts
Jan 21, 2009
2:56 PM
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"OK--so I'm a little behind on the story here on "As the Harp Turns" Could somebody loan me the Cliffs notes?"
Sure, Adam compiles list of top players according to "his" criteria. Thread moves along nicely, then phychological warfare(mind games) start by troll who thinks they are slick. Troll is then hit with hammer by Administrator, slick smart guy can't post no more.
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