jonsparrow
694 posts
Jul 31, 2009
5:39 PM
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ok i maybe a little drunk but just to make sure i took a picture. now this harp i barely use. an its fairly new. have a look at hole 6. an hole 3 a little. any one else ever get a quality instrument like this?
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 5:41 PM
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Greg Heumann
111 posts
Jul 31, 2009
5:53 PM
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Wow - uneven hole sizes. Hole 5 looks smaller than the rest too. As we slide from hole to hole and choose to "leak" a little of hole with the dominant sound of its adjacent brother, we need those holes to be EVENLY SPACED. I just checked - all my Seydels, Hohners, and other harps have evenly spaced holes.
What kind of harp is it? If its a customer, you should ask the builder why it is that way. Maybe there's a legitimate reason. If its from a major manufacturer, you should talk to them about it - they'll probably replace it.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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Mgimino
49 posts
Jul 31, 2009
6:01 PM
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I have an A harp like that, not factory however. After playing it for an hour my saliva soaked into the wood and it got to a point where it was pliable, I could adjust the hole sizes.
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Michael
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jonsparrow
695 posts
Jul 31, 2009
6:01 PM
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its a out of the box marine band.
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Kyzer Sosa
18 posts
Jul 31, 2009
6:35 PM
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so far, its the only reason i can think of that i look at mine OTB before i buy it
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jonsparrow
696 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:22 PM
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ya if i ever buy anouther stock harp im gonna check it for sure.
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scstrickland
144 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:24 PM
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I'm most of the way through a 12 pack and It looks fine to me. Maybe you just haven't had enough Jon.
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Luiz
40 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:33 PM
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This is normal in Marine Bands, don't be afraid.
It's caused by the unsealed wood soaking. It might have soaked with humid air and got like that.
It usually comes back to normal once it gets dry again.
I got used to it.. The difference in size is not big enough to affect your playing I'd say. But it also bothered me a lot when I first found out about it :/
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 7:34 PM
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Patrick Barker
371 posts
Jul 31, 2009
10:47 PM
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I had a marine band that turned like that after I played it for a while, but it straightened out when it dried and eventually stopped warping
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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arzajac
37 posts
Aug 01, 2009
6:15 AM
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I read this before leaving this morning. I usually play in the car on my way to work. As I pulled into the parking lot (a 15 minute trip - I played my MB non-stop) I looked at my harp and the comb was uneven, much like the photo.
I was able to wiggle the comb with my finger on the holes that were distorted. I had never noticed that before.
It never affected my playing before, either, though. I actually was doing pretty good this morning... It's not like I was having trouble hitting clean notes.
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tookatooka
339 posts
Aug 01, 2009
6:22 AM
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I wonder if it would be possible to get a representative from Hohner on this forum to listen to our gripes? It would be nice for them to get the customers perspective on their products. I'm certain that the forum members could make some brilliant suggestions on how they may be able to improve their products. Improved product would equal improved sales would equal improved playability would equal improved company reputation. Win-Win all round.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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jonsparrow
697 posts
Aug 01, 2009
7:56 AM
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i dont realy think hohner cares. maybe way back when they first started. but now its just a major corporation. it cost them nothing to make a marine band an they charge $30 for one. if they made any improvements the price would have to go up even more.
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kudzurunner
617 posts
Aug 01, 2009
7:58 AM
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I'm quite sure that nobody from Hohner will come here to debate, nor will I let them. The OP's photo is entirely normal and unspectacular. No big deal. That's what some Marine Band's do when you get too much spit in the holes. If this is off the shelf and UNplayed: well, that's curious, but the harp is hardly unplayable. I've had quite a few MB harps over the years that, after extended playing or soaking (don't do it!!) looked much worse than this. Much. And they often sounded great.
Marine Bands are like that. It's no big deal. Lots of terrific blues has been played and recorded on harps that looked much funkier than this. Trust me.
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ness
42 posts
Aug 01, 2009
9:01 AM
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Adam,
I'm curious -- do you do anything to your harps, or take them as they come?
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jonsparrow
698 posts
Aug 01, 2009
9:09 AM
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"The OP's photo is entirely normal"
whats an OP?
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Greg Heumann
113 posts
Aug 01, 2009
9:32 AM
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Looks to me like a very good demonstration of why unsealed combs can be problematic. The end of the comb teeth are most free to move but that certainly isn't the only dimension in which the wood will shift as it continually absorbs water and dries out. That, and cut lips, were one of the reasons I switched from MB's to SP20's very early on. I play Seydels too now - but their wood combs are sealed.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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arzajac
38 posts
Aug 01, 2009
11:04 AM
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Okay. So they can still play and sound great. But does this make it harder to play? Or is the problem mainly aesthetic?
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jonsparrow
699 posts
Aug 01, 2009
11:19 AM
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no mine isnt harder to play. it actualy plays very nice. except i had to do a little work on the 3 hole when i first got it but other then that its a great harp. i also just noticed on all my marine bands i can push the tines? is that what there called? i can push them an they all move even if there dry. they all return to the original spot. i noticed that by trying to fix the one in the pic.
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kudzurunner
620 posts
Aug 01, 2009
1:21 PM
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They can certainly be harder to play, but only if the wood comb swelling goes a bit beyond this point, so that the comb "fingers" not only skew, but extend beyond the edge of the coverplates. If you get a harp that does this--and most of my stock MBs don't, unless I soak them, which I don't--the best answer is probably to use the small blade of a Swiss Army knife, or a single edged razor, and shave back the swollen comb-fingers until they're once again flush.
I realize that this seems absolutely crazy to most people; even (or particularly) to harp modifiers who will expend great energy performing other operations.
I've been doing it so long that it seems normal to me, but I suppose the people who used to bind young women's feet in China felt the same way.
Maybe I don't salivate as much as I used to, but as I say, I rarely run into this problem with MBs to the point where this shaving-mod is required.
The problem with it is obvious: when the comb dries out, the comb-fingers end up slightly below the edge of the coverplates.
I don't blame anybody who decides that Marine Bands aren't for them and switches to another model.
When the comb-fingers swell and you DON'T shave them, you'll obviously end up with painful lips if you practice/play a lot. That's why I shave them. But I don't do this unless they really protrude a lot.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2009 1:22 PM
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mickil
411 posts
Aug 01, 2009
2:13 PM
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Funny why Hohner don't just seal the 1896 and be done with it. It's such a simple thing, I'm baffled as to why they don't just sort it. It's not like the MB has never undergone change.
Hopefully the Crossover will end all this. I know that the tuning is slighty different, but a) that's to make it more multi-position friendly, which a lot of people on here should like, judging by the amount of talk about different positions; and, b) the MB's tuning has undergone slight changes over the decades, anyway.
I can't remember where I read b. I think it was on a Pat Missin web page.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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tookatooka
340 posts
Aug 01, 2009
2:33 PM
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Adam. I'd like to know why you are a dyed in the wool MB player. I know the answer will probably be superior tone and that would be understandable but it would be really good to hear you play a different sort of harp sometime just so we could see what sort of tone you manage get out of say, a Suzuki.
The only reason I ask is I'm getting to the point where I feel that only "real blues men" play the wooden combed harps and the plastic comb is for the kids and wannabe's.
I'd love to hear what you could do with a plastic comb before I decide to leave the plastic combs in favour of a superior tone but the problems of lip torture.
Any chance?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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mickil
412 posts
Aug 01, 2009
3:02 PM
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Tx2,
That's interesting. I can't quite make 'Not A Shuffle' Blues or some of the other stuff I've tried to ape sound quite as I'd like it to on a SP20 - might just be my technique.
I'd love to hear 'the man' do some stuff on a plastic comb, TET, what have you.
Then I can't blame it on the harp any more - haha !
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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harpwrench
55 posts
Aug 01, 2009
3:06 PM
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I don't mean to sound nasty, but give Hohner a little credit. They did address the problem many, many years ago, it's called a Marine Band Special 20. It doesn't cost any more to "upgrade" to that model if the quirks inherent to a wooden comb bug you. They also have the Marine Band Deluxe. It retains the wooden comb and has additional sealant, along with screws instead of nails. Also has opened cover plates in back.
The Marine Band Classic 1896 as far as I know is the most popular model they sell, just like it is. If you were in business to make money, why would you mess with it when you already offer alternative models that address the typical grievances with that model?
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harpwrench
56 posts
Aug 01, 2009
3:14 PM
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The SP20 does sound mellower than a MB, but the difference is mainly the cover plates. I used to wholeheartedly believe the plastic comb had an "overblowability" disadvantage due to the reeds being further away from the mouth, and others still do, but honestly it's pretty much irrelevant. My opinion, to which I'm entitled.
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belfast_harper
63 posts
Aug 01, 2009
3:50 PM
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The good thing about the Marine Band Classic 1896 been nailed and unsealed is that it keeps the price down.
It doesn't take much work to open up cover plates, swap the nails for screws and sand & seal a comb.
The thing I like about rebuilding my own marine bands is that I can use the screws that I like and round off the corners the way I like too.
Rebuilding your own marine bands is going to work out cheaper than having hohner pay for the extras, and TBH I think my rebuilt MB's look a lot better that the MBD's any way.
I've now figured out how to replace reeds, so the harps that I have should last for life. So a bit of time building them the way I like at the start will be time well spent.
Last Edited by on Aug 01, 2009 3:52 PM
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jonsparrow
703 posts
Aug 01, 2009
3:52 PM
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the sp20 is more airtight an will over blow realy easy in my experience. though i still prefer the marine band. there is just something magical about it. i think the ghost of m. hohner sprinkles a little bit of blues dust on each batch that comes off the assembly line.
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tookatooka
341 posts
Aug 01, 2009
4:02 PM
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Darn. I've been resisting going down the MB route but you guys are doing a good job at persuading me. Replacing single reeds wouldn't be a bad idea.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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belfast_harper
64 posts
Aug 01, 2009
4:34 PM
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tookatooka, you can actually buy single reeds from harponline for MBs, but I have been taking them off old reed plates. I took a few reeds of a working special 20 to get 2 MBs with broken reeds back up and running.
I used the reeds from c S20 to fix a B flat and a C MB, I think I red some where that you can sharpen or flatten reeds by a whole step with no problems.
I also managed to use a reed from a broken C promaster to fix a reed on a B flat suzuki firebreath.
I used rivets for the hohner harps and screws for the suzuki harps.
It is a good feeling to get £100 worth of harps working again.
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MrVerylongusername
445 posts
Aug 01, 2009
5:04 PM
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A harp went at rehearsal 2 days before a gig. Not enough time to get a mail order harp, so I chanced it with the piss poor selection my local music shop stocks. As I thought, Blues Harps, Marine Bands or Silver Stars was all they had. So for the first time in 18 years I bought a Marine Band. Full of high expectations -thinking to myself "I've come on leaps and bounds in 18 years, it must have been inexperience surely?" - I put the harp to my lips. I've never played such a leaky, wheezy harp in... well 18 years. No compression at all on the 3 hole. I couldn't gig with it. Next day I stripped it down, replaced all the nails, sanded and sealed, embossed and gapped, folded back the covers... and it is still inferior in playability (not saying anything about tone) to just about every harp in my gig bag. I said "never again" 18 years ago. This time I mean it. If I ever have to buy a Hohner again it will be a Golden Melody or a Special 20. People say there are good Marine Bands and bad ones, so maybe I got a bad one, I dunno, but frankly I think at the best part of £30 a pop they should all be good ones.
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Buddha
898 posts
Aug 01, 2009
7:16 PM
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I don't know what you sissies are sissying on about. Back when I was learning to play we didn't even have holes to separate the reeds. Why do you think the U block was invented? It weren't to play no chords.
I say it's time to man up and yank the tines out of them combs, that'll teach y'alls to be a real player.
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jonsparrow
707 posts
Aug 01, 2009
7:33 PM
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LOL!
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snakes
316 posts
Aug 02, 2009
9:30 PM
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If you like wood combs I have two words to give as advice. Suzuki Firebreath.
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jonsparrow
723 posts
Aug 02, 2009
10:24 PM
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iv allways wanted to get a firebreath. there promotional videos make them seem realy tempting.
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ness
44 posts
Aug 03, 2009
6:51 AM
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harpwrench said:
"I don't mean to sound nasty, but give Hohner a little credit. They did address the problem many, many years ago, it's called a Marine Band Special 20. It doesn't cost any more to "upgrade" to that model if the quirks inherent to a wooden comb bug you. They also have the Marine Band Deluxe. It retains the wooden comb and has additional sealant, along with screws instead of nails. Also has opened cover plates in back.
The Marine Band Classic 1896 as far as I know is the most popular model they sell, just like it is. If you were in business to make money, why would you mess with it when you already offer alternative models that address the typical grievances with that model?"
Great perspective, harpwrench. You're right, they're in it to make money and they've got other options that address the shortcomings of the MB. But, I suppose that isn't much consolation to the uninformed that plunks down $30 for a faulty product.
The MB Deluxe doesn't get much attention here -- I'd be curious to hear some opinions on it. I think the Crossroads sounds very interesting -- that may be the next harp I buy.
jonsparrow: I just got a Firebreath and really like it. I'm very new to this, and can't say I've really put it through a tough test, but it seems well-sealed, tight and looks great. The enameled cover plates are pretty slick and I find they catch less than the chrome ones on the Promaster. I think it sounds great too.
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2009 6:52 AM
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Oliver
92 posts
Aug 03, 2009
10:29 AM
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It is good looking, yeah, although I would prefer less of the space-age style inscription on the coverplates.
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kudzurunner
626 posts
Aug 03, 2009
10:42 AM
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Verylong:
I think you got a bum harp. I've always said: Out of five off-the-shelf Marine Bands, one is pretty bad, one is fantastic--tight, resonant, easy to play--and three are pretty good. You got the bad one. So did I when, under very similar circumstances, I went into my local music shop the other day and picked up his last D. Stiff as hell. My tough break.
And for the record, when I got on the phone with my contact at Hohner on Friday to order three new harps for the road ($21, no tax, for endorsers), I told him exactly what I've written above. I use MB's, enjoy them, get "my" sound out of them, but I'm under no illusions about them being the greatest mass-produced harp. I happen to think, though, that they've lasted, and been a favorite with many pros for many years, for a reason. And the reason isn't just connected to an advertising budget. I'm able to move around on MBs fairly deftly, using overblows--although not doing anything terribly fancy with them, including sustaining them for very long or bending them upward--and they hold up well under my onslaught. If you'd stood there while I worked out in my garage/woodshed yesterday afternoon, sweat pooling on the ground, clothes soaked, and you'd heard what I was able to pull out of a BAD MB D-harp, you'd shake your head and wonder how I did it. (Hint: a few sips of Jim Beam didn't hurt. Break on through to the other side.)
When I used to buy them at Sam Ash in NYC, I'd try out 2 or 3, using the tester, and take the one that had the richest sound. Always do this, if possible.
It's a mistake to judge any mass produced make or model based on one single instrument. I've tried many Special 20s (although not for 15 years) and I just can't stand the way they sound.
Recently I bought a MB Deluxe, key of G, and it was noticeably better than the 2 non-Special key of G's that I had.
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2009 10:49 AM
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tookatooka
345 posts
Aug 03, 2009
12:54 PM
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Adam. Repeated from post above. I'd like to know why you are a dyed in the wool MB player. I know the answer will probably be superior tone and that would be understandable but it would be really good to hear you play a different sort of harp sometime just so we could see what sort of tone you manage get out of say, a Suzuki.
The only reason I ask is I'm getting to the point where I feel that only "real blues men" play the wooden combed harps and the plastic comb is for the kids and wannabe's.
I'd love to hear what you could do with a plastic comb before I decide to leave the plastic combs in favour of a superior tone but the problems of lip torture.
Any chance?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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kudzurunner
628 posts
Aug 03, 2009
1:09 PM
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Of course I don't want to spend a lot of money on harps I'm not going to play, but if a few people sent me one harp each--plastic comb, whatever--I promise I will make a video in which I play them.
I feel as though I've addressed the question of my MB use at length--at immoderate length--in various threads. So I won't do that again here. But no, I certainly don't think that real bluesmen all use wood combed harps, much less MBs. I really don't make prescriptions. Everybody should try a bunch of different harps and settle on what works for them. Don't listen to "experts." I certainly didn't.
I had a Big River harp, several of them, in the key of D-flat, and I got a great sound out of it.
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tookatooka
346 posts
Aug 03, 2009
1:40 PM
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Thanks Adam. I wrongly assumed you'd have one lying around. I thought you guys at the top of the tree were deluged with harps from manufacturers looking for endorsements. In the current economic climate I can't justify the expense for the sake of my curiosity but when I can, I will. Thanks.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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oldwailer
845 posts
Aug 03, 2009
3:52 PM
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OK Adam--I'm going to send you a harp, but I probably won't get around to making it until after SPAH.
It'll be a MB with a plastic comb and some minimal work on the reeds. I'd just like to take you up on the above offer to see what you think--I like them a lot better than out-of-the-box, but it would be worth it to me to see how you like them, or if I could do something to make them better.
I don't need for you to make a video with it (unless you just want to), but I'd really like to know what you think of it--I'll get one to you soon--do you have a key preference?
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tookatooka
348 posts
Aug 04, 2009
2:59 AM
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OW. Would that be a Special 20 and would it be in Equal Temperament tuning? I'd like to see how Adam sounds with ET cos no matter how I try with my Suzukis I can't make anything I do sound as good as what Adam can do with an MB.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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GermanHarpist
544 posts
Aug 04, 2009
4:07 AM
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A Golden Melody would also be very interesting. And T2 is right, a Suzuki too. And maybe some kind of cheapo harp, like the Bluesband... That should fill the 10min vid. :)
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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kudzurunner
629 posts
Aug 04, 2009
4:41 AM
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OldW:
Sure, I'd be delighted to try one of your harps.
I spent an hour last night playing a MB A, stock. It wasn't a great harp. It is strictly out of the box; I haven't opened it to tune or tweak, and several of the reeds were very stiff. I could get through a gig with it just fine. I can always get my sound. But it wasn't very responsive, and the overblows in particular were fractionally slower to kick in. In such cases, I use fewer overblows.
I'm probably like the guy who, when power steering was introduced, swore by his old prewar MG with non-assisted rack and pinion steering. It's about the "feel."
Sure, send 'em on.
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oldwailer
849 posts
Aug 04, 2009
5:14 PM
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Great, Adam--I'll get one made for you right after SPAH is over.
No, Tooka, the MB's I make are just regular MB--with a custom plastic comb, and I tune them to the Richard Sleigh "All-Purpose Tuning," which splits the difference between Just and Equal tunings. I like them a lot, since they sound good to me with chords and with single-note runs.
Of course, I have pretty old ears. . .
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Hollistonharper
114 posts
Aug 05, 2009
6:38 PM
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Hey Old Wailer--question for you about your plastic harps for the MB. Are you making them or cannibalizing another harmonica?
Reason I ask is that I'm working a lot on my tongue blocking, and am drooling(!!) as much as I did when I first took up the harp as a lip purser and warping out my combs again....so I have a really old Hohner Pocket Pal and it's plastic comb clearly will fit perfectly on the marine band. It looks like the Pocket Pal is the cheap chinese version of an MB the way the Blues Band is the copy of the Special 20. So I'm trying to get courageous enough to drill screw holes in the MB reed plates and try it out...I'm making progress on some of the harp customization stuff but it's not my strong suit...if you are making your own plastic combs, do the screw holes line up with the nail holes on the MB reed plates? If yes, will you sell some to me? Thanks.
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kudzurunner
642 posts
Aug 05, 2009
6:59 PM
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I just got three stock Marine Bands (2 Ds and a C) from Hohner. 3-day ground delivery, for which I paid a slight premium. First time I've gotten harps as an official endorser.
Man! They are great! Who needs custom harps! These are 5-star.
Do I think they selected from the best of the run? Yes.
Are they great harps? Yes.
Did they cost me $21.50 and no postage? Yes.
They are my definitive answer to why I've stuck with Marine Bands all these years. They overblow easily, by the way.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2009 6:59 PM
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roundRiver
4 posts
Aug 05, 2009
7:58 PM
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I'll toss in a Chinese Bluesband. I ususally pick up a few dozen after Xmas when they are on clearance for 75 cents.
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oldwailer
853 posts
Aug 06, 2009
11:01 AM
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Holiston; I make the combs from scratch, I got some training on how to do this from Buddha. Some of the holes in my plastic comb would line up with nail holes, some not.
The problem with getting the holes to line up is, for one thing, not possible because the holes on the blow plate don't line up with the ones in the draw plate--so that the nails don't hit each other, I guess.
For another thing, there aren't enough nail holes in the right places to make the best seal to the new comb.
It's best to just drill new holes, unless one here or there happens to be where you want it. . .
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Hollistonharper
117 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:18 PM
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Thanks for the info Oldwailer. I sent you a message on Harmonica Space.
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sorin
13 posts
Aug 06, 2009
11:06 PM
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Mr Spiers , can you please develop a little bit this thing : "I used to wholeheartedly believe the plastic comb had an "overblowability" disadvantage due to the reeds being further away from the mouth, and others still do " , are you talking about all plastic combs? or only the one that have recessed plates (sp20 style) ? GM has a comb similar with the wood ones , shape wise . Can you please explain. Thanks in advance.
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