tookatooka
493 posts
Sep 16, 2009
2:37 PM
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Don't know about you guys but I'm ready for the next challenge. I need some sort of target to focus on with my practice to give me the impetus to crack on.
Just thought I'd raise this now so we can have the bunfight and decide whether it's going to be a challenge a contest or hand to hand combat. Also ideas on how we can raise the profile of the challenge, maybe by throwing it wide open to all-comers on YouTube? Maybe give the winner a title to use as bragging rights or something.(Just thinking aloud)
Small entry fee via PayPal which could go towards a prize. Effects pedal, Harp etc. ??????
Although HPC-2 was a bit of a letdown due to there only being a handful of entrants, those of us who took part enjoyed the challenge and learnt from it. It would be a shame if it died.
Maybe we could thrash out some ideas on how we could build on our previous success and make it better and bigger.
Thought I'd start this early so we could maybe get something in place for a contest before the end of the year. I'm sure we would all like our efforts to be heard by a wider audience and it would be really great to get some of the heavy hitters involved too.
Just some thoughts from me to maybe fire up some debate so we can generate some ideas or do we just let it slide?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2009 2:37 PM
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mickil
523 posts
Sep 16, 2009
3:55 PM
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tooka,
The first thing I'm gonna say is that I think that a cash prize would be a big no-no; it could easily turn what is often heated debate on here into all-out-thermo-nuclear war. I'm not against the idea, just the extreme difficulty in audjuticating it using this medium where money is concerned.
I too share your disappointment that there wasn't more interest in HPC2. To my knowledge, two participants didn't actually cast any votes, and a third only did so when coaxed.
That baffled me. Honestly. Of two, I thought, 'Perhaps they've been injured or something and can't get to a computer.' Anyway, if they couldn't or wouldn't trawl through all the entries then why should anyone else bother? It is a labour after all: it took me hours to try and whittle it down to five votes.
Anyway, the whole thing made me very introspective about the whole point of the contest. It seems as though a great many people on here are just happy to talk, and good luck to them.
If that's all the board wants then so be it. Shame though. Isaacullah and/or Germanharpist's original HPC1 was a great idea, aided hugely by oldwailer's stunning backing track.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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tookatooka
495 posts
Sep 16, 2009
4:16 PM
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OK Mickil. Understand concerns regarding prize, it would be a bugger to administer, it was just a stab in the dark. Brainstorming.
Just thought I'd get a debate going though to see if the idea has any legs or whether it has run it's course. There may be other things that can be done on YouTube. I'm sure there are loads of harpers who are keen to polish their skills and get a useful critique so thay can find where they are in the scheme of things.
I suppose those on here who only want to talk harp are probably proficient players who have been through the learning curve and need to get to grips with gigs, mics and amps, plus dare I say it, hats and stage costumes etc. ;)
Hopefully we'll get further ideas/suggestions on here that we can mull over.
I'll keep thinking of ways to erm.... make learning the harp in an isolated situation (without a personal tutor) more social and interesting combined with useful feedback.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 6:08 AM
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mickil
524 posts
Sep 16, 2009
4:30 PM
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Yeah, tooka. Hopefully, Harpfriends can find an outlet for HPC3, though, it would be sad (ironic?) if this isn't it.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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jonsparrow
1017 posts
Sep 16, 2009
4:37 PM
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i feel that hpc2 wasnt as good as the first one because we had to play an actual song. the first contest was up to our creativity. thats what made it easier an more open to every one. we should keep it in that format. like the next one can be chugging, then a boogie, etc... but im up for the next one as well.
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mickil
525 posts
Sep 16, 2009
4:46 PM
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"the first contest was up to our creativity. thats what made it easier an more open to every one. we should keep it in that format. like the next one can be chugging..."
I don't understand your point, Jon. Do you think that a chug, which is a freeform piece, is going to be any easier than a structured song like Summertime?
Anyone can huff and puff on holes 1 to 4, even from day one. But, there's a bit more to it than that.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Hollistonharper
133 posts
Sep 16, 2009
5:04 PM
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I tend to agree with Jon, and especially because of the song. Summertime is an important song, and very meaningful to me. I saw a theater production of Porgy and Bess at a young age, and it contributed greatly to my appreciation of the arts and a wide variety of music. Having said that, it's not the blues and this is a blues harp forum. I think a lot of people have no interest ( which I thnk is very short sighted and limiting).
I also think that HPCs probably apppeal most to relative novices and should be pitched to them. Truly good harpers who are out gigging have nothing to gain. There's also another website (name escapes me) but I know MBH members such as Kingobad and Dutchbones particpate in ongoing contests, so maybe that's where the intermediates tend to go. I'll participate iin all MBH contests not because I hope to win but because I hope to learn something from the experience. If we specifically encourage newer players to submit I'd bet you get a higher turnout.
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2009 5:08 PM
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RyanMortos
301 posts
Sep 16, 2009
5:31 PM
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I wrote a huge ass response to this and decided not to post it. So Ill try this one...
I think there should be a judging pre-contest on what the contest involves. Biggest question: Given the direction we have to offer is this something any level player could accomplish in the time alloted?
Many of the people that submitted to HPC2 had previous experience with playing Summertime. Some of us didnt know what key, what position, what notes to play. I think jon mentioned he never heard it before!
Do you think any level player that can hit bends and play clean single notes could figure out how to play any given musical standard (on their own) in under 3 months?
Lastly Id like to say that there's tons for those that didnt submit to learn from the submissions & I very much look forward to HPC3!
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2009 5:35 PM
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scstrickland
243 posts
Sep 16, 2009
5:45 PM
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I loved both contests. I competed in neither because Im a BIG CHICKEN, but learned a lot in both. I voted in both. The first I listened to ever entry at least 3 times and came up with reasons why I liked or disliked them. This was a very useful learning tool and have gone back to listen to some again for ideas. The second HPC I lost interest in at the last minute when people began debating wether we should vote or not, I listened through each one time cast my vote and was done with it. How about 2 separate contests, one for beginners maybe a basic shuffle jam-track to play along to and one for more advances players that focus on incorporating advanced techniques. I was not disappointed that there were not more participants as it takes much longer to watch all the entries and decide. Even for summertime when I didn't put in much effort I spent over an hour.
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mickil
526 posts
Sep 16, 2009
5:52 PM
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Ryan,
"I think there should be a judging pre-contest on what the contest involves."
Before both HPC 1 & 2, we had threads that were intended to do exactly what you describe.
"Do you think any level player that can hit bends and play clean single notes could figure out how to play any given musical standard (on their own) in under 3 months?"
Does who think, me, or one in general? As for myself, given that it's a harp forum, I kinda-sort-of-like presumed that quite a few on here could figure it out. The tune isn't that hard, though, dressing it up for a few minutes does take some work. As for the notes, I think there's quite a few tabs on the www.
Anyway, I'll shut up. Tookas original point is getting buried, largely by me, I suppose.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Blackbird
110 posts
Sep 16, 2009
6:06 PM
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As a guy who's played harps for many years, but not many *hours*, Holliston is right - the contests appeal to me.
The first one was to just see what people out there were doing vs. saying, and short of tech limitations of recording/taping, I'd be inspired to jump in depending upon the next contest format. By Adam's definitions in the "what level are you?" link, I float in that advanced beginner/intermediate area, depending upon specific parts of those categories. I like the idea of having something familiar to work with, and add my own style or expression to, and also love the pure improv idea but feel like I'd lose that contest quickly because at best, I'd be ripping off licks and snippets and cutting and pasting them together vs. really digging up my own style. For me it's finding the right offering that clicks and I think "oh, yeah! I could do that!" and work on it enough with the confidence to make an entry.
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jonsparrow
1021 posts
Sep 16, 2009
7:48 PM
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"I don't understand your point, Jon. Do you think that a chug, which is a freeform piece, is going to be any easier than a structured song like Summertime?"
yes. cause if you playing a structured song there are guidelines to follow an if you cant play the tune that great its hopeless. when its a known song there are expectations to live up too. if its a free form piece no one ever heard it before so its all up to the player. an when playing a structured song its not just playing the song. its playing it in a way that no one ever heard before an making it your own. thats the hardest part about making music. with enough practice any one can play summer time perfect. but if you dont have any creativity it will just sound the way it supposed to sound an nothing new. so if every entry was summer time note for note all the same it would be pretty hard to judge. point is, playing a structured song is harder then a free form. an like ryan said learning a song in 3 months for people who never played it (or heard it) before is real challenging an this is kinda directed towards the more novice players. but dont listen to me, this is just my opinion. im still down for what ever contest goes on. its a learning experience regardless.
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2009 7:49 PM
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RyanMortos
302 posts
Sep 16, 2009
8:22 PM
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I wasnt starting a fight and my question was to the community no one personal. I will be sure to share my opinion on the subject matter of HPC 3 when that thread arrives. I dont think we're straying from the topic, if Im not mistaken, tooka's post was partially about getting more people involved.
Id be happy to do the same thing with HPC 3. Perhaps this time we can come up with a standard tab for folks to work with. There's a lot of bad tab online.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Bluzdude46
161 posts
Sep 16, 2009
8:38 PM
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Ok Ryan, but if we gotta follow a tab you're doing some driving to decipher it for me. What can I say there is something blocking the signal between my eyes and my mouth I don't understand it.
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RyanMortos
303 posts
Sep 16, 2009
8:58 PM
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Haha, youre too good for tab!
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Bluzdude46
167 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:07 PM
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i think I need to work on breaking tabs down to 3-5 note groups and string them together I think the real problem is my mouth works faster then my brain. Ok y'all feel free to have a ball with that one
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GermanHarpist
616 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:10 PM
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Two words... chuuu, chuuuuu!
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germanharpist on YT.
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GermanHarpist
617 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:18 PM
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And yes, I agree with jon. Summertime was a real pain in the .... . Would never have thought so from the get go.
I think chugging is the way to go as it can be made as easy and as proficient as one wishes it to be.
Also: get the pros into our little contest. Scientology got it all right. It's the glitter factor that gets you attention ;) (What? who else is there beside Adam, Buddha and Christelle? ;)
And let's give everybody a little bit more time... So: end of the year (i.e. 3 months) should be fine. Same with voting btw... I saw someone say, once the voting was over, that he hadn't voted... so I'd say the voting thread should run for a month this time.
Just some thoughts... OK. Off to work, cu guys later.
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germanharpist on YT.
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RyanMortos
305 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:22 PM
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Lol! Yes Ill teach you how to slowly play through a tab while memorizing it to play in real time & you can teach me 3rd & 4th position playing & how to play something people will pay to listen to as opposed to searching for fire escapes ;-P .
Slow down man! Dont want to get your tongue caught in a bear trap before your brain acknowledges thats what you're trying your overblows on!
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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jonsparrow
1027 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:33 PM
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i think it would be cool if after the contest is over, like the finish date for people to submit, THEN the pros submit there videos. it allways sucks tryting to follow a pro. an that would be cool if all the pros on here did submit an entry.
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isaacullah
336 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:37 PM
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yeah, I was interested in the HPC2 at first, but i have to admit the task of actually first LEARNING the song, and then figuring out MY TAKE on it was too much to work around my other "life stuff" (like school and works and shit). It's kind of a lame excuse, I realize this. But my practice time is necessarily composed of short bursts throughout the day, and I felt like I needed a large block of time to devote to Summertime--listening to the track, jamming along with it, trying out various improvisations, etc.--otherwise whatever I came up with would just be half-assed.
On the other hand, a more "free form" style of contest would be just great for my kind of playing. I have a lot of these kind of "semi-composed" songs that I've come up with out of various jamming sessions, which I play and try to work out more improv riffs on. Perhaps we could do something along these lines. Give everyone a one or two minute time limit, and say "Go for it. give me whatever you have!". When you submit your video to the contest, you MUST rank yourself according to Adam's "what level are you" system, and then we vote ONE winner from EACH of these level-groups. How's about that?
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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jonsparrow
1028 posts
Sep 16, 2009
9:39 PM
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^^ sounds good.
"-otherwise whatever I came up with would just be half-assed."
like my entry. lol!
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DutchBones
284 posts
Sep 16, 2009
10:15 PM
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First of all, I didn't read all the above comments... if I did I wouldn't have any time left to play my harp.... So here are my 2 cents (yen actually)...
Sorin gave us a great backtrack for "Help Me" about a week ago.. why don't we just take this chance and add what we like to it....you wanna chug? chug your brains out... You wanna wail? wail your heart out... you wanna do something different with it? amp? no amp? hey YOU decide...
"Help Me" is a blues standard and there are milions (nah... many) ways to play it. Adam has a great lesson in his shop, Dan Gage has 2 lessons on it, last years Spah jam (2008) has a 4 video series approx. 30 min? with an unbelievable variety of players taking a crack on it... not to mention the original version by SBWII (which btw can be found on youtube)
Let's do something that can be done in many ways and for all levels (Dan's vids are for beginners, Adam's video is for intermediate and advanced intermediate players AND Sorin's video includes TABS!!)
And to top it off.... perhaps don't call it HPC3..... Call it "Help Me Jam, Harpfriends" or something...(or whatever other song will be selected) This way, both members AND non members can benefit from these videos.... (somebody who is looking for "Summertime" samples is not going to type HPC2 .... even we ourselves, if there are more "contests" will probable not remember what HPC 24 was all about...
SInce there is no prize to win, I believe this "contest" should be about:
1) CHALLENGE (Challenge yourself to become a better player and for some, overcome fear to play
in front of other people)
2) SHARING (Share the things you can do with your harp so others can also benefit from your playing,
we all learn from each other, the good AND the bad)
3) HAVING FUN (Just have fun with it, whether you're a good player or you just got your first harp (we've all
been there remember)
If we can become better players (dare I say "musicians?", make other people happy AND have fun at the same time... well, I say we are all winners, you can't lose....
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DutchBones Tube
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Patrick Barker
410 posts
Sep 16, 2009
10:19 PM
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I'll admit to being one of the two who participated but didn't vote-- the day after I posted my video, marching band camp started (8 hours a day) so I was pretty short on time. Sorry if my lack of voting seemed rood. Also, the one thing I disliked about the last contest was the lack of a backing track. I think backing tracks are important when trying to improvise, especially over chord progressions more complex than the 12 bar (eg summertime).
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It's all in the tongue
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tookatooka
496 posts
Sep 17, 2009
3:26 AM
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BRILLIANT!
Lots of good feedback and suggestions coming through loud and clear.
It seems we do want to continue with something along the lines of the HPC's. Like everything, changes are inevitable and we can thank the HPC's for starting the ball rolling. We can be proactive in developing the idea futher.
To save you all from too much reading, I will let this thread roll through the weekend and then list the main points that have been raised so that we can discuss and decide later.
It will be impossible to meet everyones differing demands so we must be realistic and accept that compromises will have to be made to ensure the maximum acceptability.
Any more suggestions and ideas are invited so get them into this thread if you can and I'll list them all later.
Maybe we should set a deadline or cut-off point so that the "Basic Structure of the Challenge" process doesn't go on and on? Then we can get down to the fun part of preparing for the playoffs.
Just a thought, for those who may have problems/questions regarding recording sound/video etc maybe we can get those aired now too and we can get something in place to help you out. Don't forget there is already technical info available via the front page of this forum in the how-to section.
WHOOPS! I just read this through and I sound like a control freak who's simply taking over from the previous administrators. I'm sorry, that's not my intention. It's just that I'm keen to participate in more challenges and I have more time on my hands than I know what to do with at the moment. I know GH and isaacullah are busy, I think mickil is too and if no-one pushes this it may just fade away. Tell me to shut-up and sod-off if you think I'm overstepping the mark please.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 3:34 AM
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Ant138
119 posts
Sep 17, 2009
3:55 AM
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I have the same problem as Issacullah practice wise. Between working full time and other commitments its hard for me to sit down,learn a song then put my own spin on it. A freeform comp to a backing track suits me better, it allows me to go with the flow of the track and put up a video after a few takes wart's and all!!!.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 4:24 AM
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Bluzdude46
171 posts
Sep 17, 2009
5:18 AM
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If anyone has intentions on playing live with a band as a regular I would suggest getting used to a hectic schedule. Day Jobs don't end, Better have your part learned and practiced before you go to rehearsal and waste 3-6 other peoples time because you are not ready to go and if you want the project to be good rehearsals do not stop when you start playing gigs. One of my pet peaves is you go see a band and they are really good, so you see they are playing somewhere near again and you go and it's the same show, often same set lists....No thanks. When Done with Mirrors played their last gig we had a songlist of over 150 songs rehearsed 1-2 times weekly and gigged 1-4 nights weekly, all with day jobs and I was tired all the time, but never happier
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ChrisA
72 posts
Sep 17, 2009
6:50 AM
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I did not prticipate in the last contest but looking forward to do so in the next one. My suggestion would be to select a song which Adam provides a lesson for and the backing track. For example Big Walter's Easy. There is a lesson available plus the backing track from Charlie Hilbert. Just a tought.
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mickil
527 posts
Sep 17, 2009
7:09 AM
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tooka,
No, don't shut-up and sod-off. These things generally take someone to get the ball rolling; it looks like this time you've taken up the baton. Have fun. Ha ha !
On the subject of what would be appropriate to play, it seems as though the majority don't agree with me on that. I suppose I have a different perspective on Summertime cos I used to busk it in 3rd position, to the extent that I could oggle birds passing by and play it more or less on auto-pilot. What JS, Ryan and Isaac said, I see their point.
One thing that Patrick and I argued for last time, but was not taken up by the majority, was some kind of entry level to be judged on (beginner, etc), or time you've been playing for - I prefered the former, Patrick, cos I'd given up so many times over the years.
Since then Dutch has made a similar suggestion in one thread and Isaac has more or less echoed it above.
It does seem a bit daft trying to judge us lot - well, those I've heard play - against Christelle.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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jaymcc28
147 posts
Sep 17, 2009
7:25 AM
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I'll throw in my thoughts/comments/ideas as well:
I didn't participate in the first competition because 1) didn't have a video cam at the time and 2) I'm simply not (yet!) gifted enough to really just improv. I thought I might participate in the second but I had a hard time learning Summertime and, frankly, didn't enjoy playing it.
If we were to do a chugging type contest I'd give it a shot. I think players of every level can come up with some sort of chugging rhythm piece.
I also agree it would be nice if we could all classify our vids based on Adam's general rules of "Beginner, Advanced Beginner, Intermediate..." and then, if we have enough entries, judge them accordingly. If we only have 5 or 6 entries then that wouldn't make sense.
Choosing a backing track for this particular one, if we choose to do chugging, would actually be more limiting to the participants whereas a 'free form' chugging contest would be a bit easier for beginners.
If we have a lot of different ideas then lets keep the competition window relatively short, come up with a "schedule" of those ideas and publish it. For instance, "Chugging" is next, followed by "Help Me" which will start X weeks from now, etc. If I'm not interested in chugging I can start prepping for Help Me.
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MJ
49 posts
Sep 17, 2009
7:45 AM
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I have enjoyed following the previous contests. I have voted however due to a lack of camera, not entered.
I like the idea of catagories ..advanced beginner, etc. This evens out the playing field. I also think that the idea of playing a song with or without a backtrack is the way to go. Maybe beginners use a backtrack, and more advanced do without. However I think all levels of entrants should be doing the same thing. To do otherwise is like having a track meet where every runner runs the distance that is the most comfortable. How do you judge that? The idea put out for a "Chgging" contest is also good as long as ther is some sort of common ground to judge from, perhaps a "chug" in the key of D or A or F#m.
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tookatooka
498 posts
Sep 17, 2009
9:08 AM
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Recommendations and ideas for the challenges so far. Sorry, couldn’t wait I’m impatient.
1. Participants should declare their competency level using Adams “What level are you?“ guidelines. Then any critiques comments will be more meaningful and understanding of the entrants skill level. You can put this information into the description field on YouTube along with any other information you think is relevant. E.g. Model of Harp. Key etc, your name on the MBH forum.
2. Entries should be limited to a maximum of 2 minutes. To make reviewing quicker if there are a lot of entrants.
3. Effects can be used.
4. Name of the challenge to be re-considered so that non-harpfriend members e.g. global YouTubers looking for harp related clips will see our clips in their searched listings. This will create more interest and you never know where the talent scouts are lurking.
5. It’s not a contest. It’s a challenge for the individual to hone their skills and then share what they’ve learnt with the harp community and show them off to get feedback. Most of all it should be fun, fun, fun.
6. Backing tracks will be used but they are not mandatory. For example if we decide on a Chugging Challenge and you want to use one, fine. If you don’t, that’s fine too. But if a challenge comes up like your improvisation over the “Help Me” backing track, then you’ll need to use one.
7. If a backing track is required and we can ask someone nicely to create one for our challenge then apart from being only 2 minutes long, we need to ensure it is in a key which we all have access to. E.g. The most common harp for beginners is C and most others will have that in their set too, so the backing track should be in the key of G. I’ll leave this open because I’m sure there will be good arguments for and against at this moment in time.
8. I hope you are familiar with YouTube play lists. A Playlist on the Harpfriends Channel will be created for any challenge we do. (Much the same as we have done before). If you are not a Harpfriends signee and don’t wish to be one, we can still put your video into the playlist for you but you will need to let us know.
9. Judging. This is a hard one and I‘m not sure how it should be handled so your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.. How about this be left for say a month after the challenge deadline and then we will see from the YouTube comments and star rating what the consensus of opinions from the YouTube and harpfriends community is? This will mean you shouldn’t embed your video into a forum post because even though someone may like to comment, they may not have time to go to YouTube and make that comment on your video page. Once again ideas and suggestions welcomed please. Don't forget we're not necessarily looking for a winner, but someone who has done well and deserves recognition.
I’ll update this as further progress is made.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 9:10 AM
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XHarp
166 posts
Sep 17, 2009
12:01 PM
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Well Tooka, That's fairly well rounded. I like it.
As for #9 I think we should just ask Ellen Degeneres to judge it.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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oldwailer
889 posts
Sep 17, 2009
12:26 PM
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I like the way it has been going--I wasn't totally in line with doing Summertime without a back-track, but I found it very instructive to hear what others have done with it, and, if you want to be a musician, you pretty much gotta do something with Summertime, Amazing Grace, Happy Birthday, and You Are My Sunshine. ;-)
I like the voting, because it forces some kind of feed-back from those who would probably not give it otherwise. And I must admit that it was fun to strut in front of my wife and brag about being a top-fiver (of course she doesn't need to know how many entrants there were).
I would go for making the next one a chug--although the term "chug" might need some kind of definition in the rules--to me a chug is pretty much an acoustic thing--and I wouldn't like to see a lot of looping machines and effects pedals and such--just because we'd then be voting to see who had the best electronics.
I'd like to keep it about who can or can't play the harp, without being too restrictive about amplification.
I'm not too into the idea of putting ourselves into classes either--it would just make things complicated for voting. I'd really like to keep it simple, just for those of us who might be less highly evolved. . .
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 12:27 PM
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scstrickland
246 posts
Sep 17, 2009
12:27 PM
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For judging I likes the original Idea that someone of a professional background pick the top 3 and explain why. I think that fell through the first time because the expectations for Buddha and Adam were not clear. I suppose If we were to ask one or both of them very nicely to judge with clear guidelines, a start date and an end date. They may take us up on it Its worth a try. I think we should ask Christelle to join in the judging. Maybe Adam would be willing to start a page on the website to list the winners and link to the video, Like a hall of fame.
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oldwailer
890 posts
Sep 17, 2009
12:42 PM
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That's a very cool idea, SC--being evaluated by a pro would be great--but then we would be asking the pros to do work for free. I've spent most of my life being a pro electrician--but don't ask me to come over to your house to evaluate your attempt to put in an outlet for free! Even if you live next door.
I guess I'm just not that nice of a guy--Adam has already given us almost 200 free lessons! That just amazes me, but I wouldn't want to ask him to do more for me.
What if there was a modest entry fee and the money went to the judges? Then we could ask a pro to do some work for us, and they could get some kind of pay for their efforts. . .
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tookatooka
501 posts
Sep 17, 2009
1:15 PM
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Oldwailer. Agreed. I’d prefer accoustic too but a lot of people prefer to play through some kind of effects because that is what they would use in a gig session. As the challenge is about harp playing then that is what it should be judged upon. Personally an over-effected harp detracts from what I’d like to hear and I would need to judge the piece accordingly. I assume others would too. A little reverb or delay can sound fine but loops etc would ruin it for me.
The skill level classes thing is something that most people seem to want so they can be judged accordingly. We’ll see if there are further concerns on that. That said there’s no reason why a lower skilled player hits a lucky streak and turns out a better piece than a higher level player who’s having a bad day. Just a thought.
The question of an entry fee has already been considered and there would be difficulties in administering it.
Scstrickland. For judging I think the problem earlier was that we were expecting Adam and Buddha to spend too much time to judge the entries. It may be more acceptable for them if the community judged first and maybe Adam and Buddha would then choose the best three out of a top five? Or the best one out of the top three? If we agree with that I’ll put it to Adam and Buddha and see what they say. Failing that there must be other pro level forum members who may be able to help out?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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bluesnut
98 posts
Sep 17, 2009
1:39 PM
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My 2 cents. What do you all think about a challange using the Front porch blues? It's blues to the core. It has a stantard to reach or exeed based on you tube the video .024, tabs and it is an accoustic piece. We can use our feet as a backing track (still strugling with foot thing). It's challanging and I really like the way it sounds too.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 1:47 PM
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tookatooka
503 posts
Sep 17, 2009
1:47 PM
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Personally, that is something that I'd love to be able to play. But after trying for over a year (off and on) I doubt whether I'd ever get to point where I was half satisfied with my efforts in order to video it. I find it a very complex piece to even remember what comes next in the tune.
However that's only my take, let's see what others think.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Hollistonharper
134 posts
Sep 17, 2009
2:27 PM
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Some of the suggestions are nice ideas but strike me as impractical or a little pie in the sky. I think we should keep it to a HPC playlist, the wider Youtube thing wouldn't do much, IMO and would be too hard to tally up votes. I think we should just keep it simple--one entry class, but contestants should ID the length of time they've been playing. Then we cast 2 sets of votes, best overall and "handicapped" for length of time. I think the self assesment approach is too subjective and will often be wrong. And after all, well get to be the judge of harpers' skill levels.
I'm open to all the suggestions for actual content of the contests--all good ideas.
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 2:30 PM
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ChrisA
73 posts
Sep 17, 2009
2:52 PM
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I agree with HollistonHarper on the subjective thing. I suggest possible categories like:
0-1 year
1-3 years
3-10 years
10 years and over
or something like that.
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tookatooka
504 posts
Sep 17, 2009
2:54 PM
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I'm a great believer in KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. I accept your point regarding it getting out of control and limiting it to an HPC playlist. But we could still ensure the name of the challenge will come up in the searches on youtube for harp related video clips.
Regarding voting. I agree with you but that's only good if we can depend upon a good number of contestants. When push comes to shove, come challenge time, various people will fall by the wayside due to conflicting interests.
The aim is trying to please as many as we can by compromise. Lets see if there are any more suggestions/alternative ideas regarding the points you raised?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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tookatooka
505 posts
Sep 17, 2009
3:02 PM
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ChrisA When you say categories, you don't mean separate challenges for each category do you? One challenge open to all levels is how I see it otherwise there would too much work and effort required. Then judge accordingly taking skill level (length of playing) into account.
Sorry getting tired need to get some sleep now.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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isaacullah
337 posts
Sep 17, 2009
4:46 PM
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Great list suggestions so far! I'd also like to say that I'm putting my support behind tookatooka administering this round. I like the idea of these "contests" being free form with the responsibilities being organically dispersed around to various members of our community at different times. It helps build solidarity around here! If everyone agrees to give tooka the right to make judgment calls, I say let's let him decide what to do for the next contest (or two if he's willing). This is ultimately what happened the other two times (first with GH and me, and second with mickil), and frankly I think it's the only way these things ever leave the ground...
Before tooka makes his decision though, lets have a little more time for folks to throw out their ideas. We want EVERYONE to join in this time, right? :) IMO, these things HAVE to be judged according to skill/experience level, otherwise the results are much less meaningful (ie. the "Christelle effect"). Now, so far we've gotten a couple of suggestions about how to do this, both with some pros and cons. To do it by number of years playing seems logical at first, except that everyone progresses at a different rate according to amount of time spent practicing, amount of prior musical skill/knowledge, and natural musical ability. To me, self-rating skill level to me sounds a bit more fair, even if it still is a tad subjective. There are CLEAR guidelines Adam has laid out for this self-evaluation, however, so there SHOULD be a high degree of skill/experience correlation among the entrants in the different levels as long as everyone evaluates themselves honestly. (and no one chooses to be that intermediate -level douchebag who rates themselves as "beginner" just so they can win the beginner-level heat!)
I think that if we want to plan two HPC's ahead (can we agree to change the "C" in "HPC" from "Contest" to "Challenge"?), then I agree that the backing track challenge (similar to HPC1, but using an established blues standard like "help me" or "easy") should be the one furthest into the future. We'll certainly need time for that. The other contest should be more free-form, and closer in time. We can call it "chugging" but perhaps it would be more conducive to call it something like "solo harp jam"? That would pretty much cover whatever anyone wanted to submit, and wouldn't explicitly limit people to playing original material. You got a really great train rhythm you do? Submit it! You made up your own twelve-bar? Submit it! Got a really good version of "Got my Mojo Working"? Submit it! Think you can do justice to Adam's "Front Porch Blues?" Submit it!
Anywho, that's just my thoughts for now. I now defer to tookatooka's judgment on the issue! :)
~Isaac
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2009 4:52 PM
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ChrisA
74 posts
Sep 17, 2009
5:09 PM
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Tooka, I was thinking same song, same rules for all categories with a winner in each category.
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Blackbird
111 posts
Sep 17, 2009
5:10 PM
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Isaac - I'm liking this format. As an intermediate that could use the time and challenge to play a song and mimic it or add my own style, the farther out date makes that easier - and the free-form entrance for whatever you want to do makes it easier to ponder what I may be able to accomplish as an entry that has few boundaries and is judged on the end result.
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jonsparrow
1034 posts
Sep 17, 2009
6:04 PM
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i like chrisA's idea on the years.
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isaacullah
338 posts
Sep 17, 2009
6:36 PM
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A suggestion on the name of the submitted videos:
"HPC3 - Solo Harp Jam - by insertyournamehere"
"HPC4 - Help Me - by insertyournamehere"
This is in keeping with tradition, AND is search engine friendly. Also, rememeber that the YT search engine (officially google)is going to also be looking through the list of KEYWORDS you give your video. Want yours to show up more prominently? Add more and specific keywords. Don't want yours to show up well? Don't add keywords...
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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jaymcc28
148 posts
Sep 18, 2009
6:31 AM
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I like the way this is heading. I think using the experience level more as a handicapping would be fine.
I would rather see the 'challenges' more tightly defined. It doesn't make sense to me to have a challenge where we are comparing one players entrance of "Amazing Grace" while another is doing a rhythmic chugging song. But, I'll go with the masses and whatever TookaTooka decides. I'm looking forward to it.
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tookatooka
506 posts
Sep 18, 2009
6:56 AM
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Thanks isaacullah, some very useful input some of which I will be implementing. Thanks for the vote of confidence, I won't please everyone but if I can please most of us that will be good.
Thanks jaymcc28. It's a hard call, I'm getting pulled back and forth trying to satisfy everyone but that will be impossible. We have to remember it's only for a bit of fun, it's not life or death. If it gives us the impetus to dig a bit deeper with our harp playing, then that's good.
It's a shame we can't have all sorts of challenges with all sorts of formats but resources do not allow. If the next challenge doesn't meet someones requirements, hopefully the one after that will.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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