dougharps
480 posts
Nov 23, 2013
8:07 AM
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@The Iceman (& others)
While I found my own way without the benefit of most of the new information, spending years working it out for myself, I encourage people learning harp to try a variety of ways to learn as fast as possible. I have greatly benefited from more information becoming available and I fully support others having a faster path to improved playing and share knowledge of many sources. I have benefited from your posts here and elsewhere.
I just don't believe in a dogmatic approach that requires all to take the same path to learning. There are many ways to play, and not embracing tilting as the final and only way does not mean people are resistant.
Adam, Winslow, and others have contributed much to the increased availability of harmonica knowledge, and I don't think it would be a fair characterization to imply that they are "resistant to something that expedites the process for others."
While I am certain to offer the tilt suggestion to beginners as an option, I will not insist on it, but will suggest they explore different angles and whether it helps. I continue to support self guided learning drawing on many approaches.
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Doug S.
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Doug S.
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sonny3
90 posts
Nov 23, 2013
9:37 AM
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Im finding that I'm a lip blocker and not a purser.I wasn't even aware of it.I notice that I tilt the top cover down and my lip covers the M on the top cover if my Marine band.I think everybody just figures out what works for them over time.
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Stevelegh
874 posts
Nov 23, 2013
11:35 AM
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Jason tilts.
Christelle tilts.
I've advanced more using this technique in 3 years than I've advanced in the last 25 years.
Tilt your harp. Even if you only do it once to try it.
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harpdude61
1898 posts
Nov 23, 2013
12:48 PM
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Stevelegh....Have you noticed the two you mentioned seem to have great control of their harps? I studied Jason a lot. I knew there had to be reasons he played his overbends so well with so little effort.
I believe you can relax more with the tilt. I also believe with a relaxed open mouth you have more air available to use.
If I level my harp and put it in deep, I can't let my jaw drop near as much as I can with the tilt. My mouth just don't feel as open with the harp level.
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kudzurunner
4396 posts
Nov 23, 2013
1:35 PM
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Wonderful thread, everybody. I certainly didn't "damn" tilt-technique "as a last resort." I blessed it as something that I, in my own teaching, will suggest as a last resort. Nobody who is familiar with even 10% of my teaching videos, or has ever watched me teach in person, can call me dogmatic--EXCEPT about one thing: my insistence that folks not be dogmatic. There are many ways of making great sounds on the harmonica. I'm always learning something new. Winslow's eloquent pushback was anti-dogmatic. He was simply reminding all of us that many of the players we celebrate here were able to make their great sounds without tilting the harp. This doesn't mean that NOT tilting is the only way to go. That, too, would be dogma.
Please take more care when you parse my carefully chosen words.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Nov 23, 2013 1:41 PM
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harpdude61
1899 posts
Nov 23, 2013
5:04 PM
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It's just that your words carry a lot more weight than mine or most anyone else on the forum Adam. I spent a LOT of time figuring out what was best for me based on what I learned from pros like yourself in person, instructional material, and close observance (eyes and ears)of the greats past and present. Figure in the styles and sounds I prefer and this is where I landed.
I apologize. I guess it felt like the comments made by yourself and Winslow sort of minimized my efforts in the eyes of my peers.
I have a long way to go before my playing and comments earn the listeners ear the way yours does. However, I do pride myself on my research, experimentation, and in my eyes anyway, a little innovation.
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kudzurunner
4397 posts
Nov 23, 2013
8:18 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, technique is strictly secondary. Your angling technique, harpdude, is just fine with me. That's what I tried to say above, but apparently I didn't make that clear, so I'll repeat that here. I'm happy being the outlier and innovator. Or you can be the outlier and innovator, if you prefer. It really doesn't matter to me. I"m incapable of engaging seriously these days with folks who are capable of carrying anything that looks like a pained grievance over a disagreement about something so silly as harmonica technique. It's just technique. Having SOME technique is important, of course. But arguing about it? As long as it's done in a sporting way, I suppose. But some folks here are actually getting pissed off, and that's too bad.
The really important thing is the melodies that cycle through your head and the rhythms that tug at your body. Figuring out how to activate, cultivate, and express them is crucial. The only purpose of technique is to get to a point where it's relatively unimportant. The key thing is the song in your heart, the melodic stuff that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning. Coltrane had unbelievable technique, but it was simply a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's easy, sadly, to lose sight of that truth--especially in this sort of forum.
I encourage all members of this forum to set a melody flowing through their minds in the minute or two after they get into bed this evening. Also, make a point sometimes of playing right after you get out of bed in the morning. It's a good time for melodies. I've also found at that hour of the day that I don't worry much about technique--although of course overblowing is a technique that I often use to play the melodies that dance through my head, and I've certainly been known to overblow in the morning. I'm more likely, though, to play some sort of Sonny Terry chugging thing. I just play, and have fun with it. There's nothing more enlivening than a hunger to play harmonica, followed by five or ten minutes of spirited playing. I hope we all agree on THAT much.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Nov 23, 2013 8:28 PM
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harpdude61
1900 posts
Nov 24, 2013
4:31 AM
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Who got pissed off? pained grievance? You are finding things that are not here my friend. Sounds like I need to repeat my last post.
"The really important thing is the melodies that cycle through your head and the rhythms that tug at your body." Of course, but that's not what this thread is about. Your last two paragraphs are OT.
I thought it was a very orderly debate myself.
Sometimes your responses come based as much on who made a statement than the content of the statement. I'm sure if Jason, Winslow, or BBQ said the things I did they would have more merit in your eyes. That's to be expected.
I reread the whole thread. I sense no one getting pissed off except you.
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groyster1
2471 posts
Nov 24, 2013
7:28 AM
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in tony glovers book he recommended tilting or dropping your tongue down...that's what I did for a long time...now I bend with the throat
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MindTheGap
65 posts
Nov 24, 2013
8:12 AM
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Anyway....
The story so far seems to be that trying a bit of tilt could be helpful for:
1. Players who have trouble getting a clear single note, LB.
2. Players who have unwanted tension in their embouchure.
3. Using the flat part of the tongue rather than the tip when TBing to make splits easier.
Some find it makes a radical improvement to their tone, and some don't. And people can list players, all of who have great tone, some of who tilt to varying degrees and some who don't.
Is that a reasonable summary, Oh teachers?
I take from all this that it is likely to be something rather personal, perhaps down to lip/mouth geometry. Again, it's the teachers, who see many students, who could give most insight on this. Iceman's approach sounds good - start with a steep angle and find your optimum, which could be flat I guess.
Since I read Frank's post about David Barrett's Quest for Tone, I've tried and found that personally I can get more solid TB'd octaves by tilting and using the flat of the tongue. So I've got something new and good out of this thread.
Perhaps one of the very good things to come out of this discussion is musicians all over the land examining their embouchures in their bathroom trifold mirrors.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 24, 2013 8:15 AM
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WinslowYerxa
428 posts
Nov 24, 2013
9:24 AM
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You can easily use the broad surface of the tongue without tilting. I first learned this approach to tongue blocking from an old book, probably published in the 1930s, which does not mention tilting.
I'm open to new possibilities. But every single benefit claimed for tilting thus far, with the possible exception of getting the first single note as a beginner, is easily available without tilting.
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Winslow
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Frank
3374 posts
Nov 24, 2013
9:42 AM
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Elvis has officially left the building :)
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Stevelegh
875 posts
Nov 24, 2013
10:00 AM
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My teeth were cutting into my mouth and my mouth muscles were aching when I tried to lip purse.
Tilting solved it. My tongue is now free to articulate.
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WinslowYerxa
429 posts
Nov 24, 2013
10:24 AM
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Iceman writes "One problem has been that many have learned without the benefit of new information, spending years working it out for themselves, so human nature dictates that these folk may be resistant to something that expedites that process for others."
In other words, try to discredit the messenger when you don't like his message.
I'm open to new ideas; don't get me wrong. And until this thread came along, I always thought of tilting as a gimmick. But I can now see that it offers benefits.
I can see that it has helped a lot of people. But when I try it, it mostly offers no benefit. The one exception I've experienced is playing octaves on a particular model of chromatic, the Suzuki SCX, where the sound comes it a little stronger, probably due to a better seal. However, the shape of the mouthpiece/covers varies dramatically on different models of chromatic, so it'll be interesting to try it on them and see whether the seal is improved in different ones.
I can see tilting as a useful tool in the bag of teaching tools. However, I still think it's flat-out wrong to teach tilting as *THE* way to play. It will work for some folks and not others.
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Winslow
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tmf714
2199 posts
Nov 24, 2013
10:49 AM
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None of my top five use it-
Piazza,Wilson,Gruenling,Clarke,Sugar Blue.
I don't use it,but then again I am a full time tongue blocker.
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harpdude61
1902 posts
Nov 24, 2013
11:04 AM
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Great thread and I'm sorry if I crossed the line in any way with my comments or my interpretation of others comments.
This type thing is why I truly miss HCH. Sitting around, comparing styles, licks, etc. with players of all levels. The classes, performances, and jams were the best, but I really enjoyed hanging out and talking shop. Discussion on topics like this are always better in person.
SPAH always happens at a bad time of year for me to get away. Maybe someday we'll cross paths.
Adam knows I'm a fan and promoter of his playing and teaching. My son still talks about the time we drove down to Knoxville a few years back to see Satan and Adam perform before a full house at a downtown club.
Cheers and thanks to all on this great forum who have been a help to me along the way.
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groyster1
2472 posts
Nov 24, 2013
11:06 AM
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my take is that there is no right or wrong here....if it works,keep doing it regardless of what others may think
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MindTheGap
66 posts
Nov 24, 2013
11:42 AM
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groyster1 - I think that approach is fine if you already have a technique together, are happy with it and are looking at accepting/rejecting a new suggestion. But for the beginner, they need to know what they are aiming at.
I don't want to find out in five years time that I really should have playing a different way. With a musical instrument, often the 'immediately most comfortable' or 'immediately natural' way to play is not the best way in the long term, and relearning things is painful.
The LP/TB issue was a good example of exactly this, thankfully I resolved that by watching Adam's lessons and reading some of the many debates here.
So when we read that respected teachers suggest one thing or another, I will take note.
Over this one, I don't know what to think now. Is it vital, unimportant, personal taste?
Frank, I think that Elvis is still backstage.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 24, 2013 11:46 AM
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Milsson
90 posts
Nov 24, 2013
12:00 PM
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that kind of sums it up!
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kudzurunner
4398 posts
Nov 24, 2013
12:16 PM
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I certainly applaud experimentation. Duane and I have often found ourselves in the same side of certain issues concerning technique and/or innovation--such as overblows and the majesty of Jason Ricci on a certain slow blues in C.
Although it isn't easy to pull new techniques into one's playing after 40 years, I realized the moment I saw Chris Michalek's video on high-note vibrato (raising and lowering the jaw) that his technique was optimal and mine was audibly sub-optimal. I don't practice the new technique as much as I should, but I acknowledge and teach its importance.
As far as I'm concerned, anything that enlarges the space within which we can practice our craft is a good thing. It's good to know what the old masters did; it's good to know what contemporary masters do. It's good to know what different high-profile teachers do. It's a mistake, I think, to assert, or hope, that one technique and one technique only is THE technique.
This leaves developing players in a quandary, but that's nothing new. Many areas into which humans pour their hearts and souls and in which they strive for excellence--sport, religion, intellectual and artistic endeavors--allow for a range of skillful approaches. I happen to follow the world of distance running. The best coaches in the world--Renato Canova, Alberto Salazar, Brad Hudson, the late Arthur Lydiard--don't agree. God knows the major world religions don't all agree!--although there are, on the other hand, a handful of things that the major world religions do agree on (loving-kindness, the need for community, the need for communicable teachings, etc.).
I'd encourage students to try the technique and see, after a trial period, if it comes to feel natural. My two-handed grip immediately felt natural to me when somebody showed it to me after I'd been playing a few months, and I've been using it ever since. Tongue blocking felt natural almost immediately after Nat Riddles got me seriously invested in it, but so did lip pursing when bending--and so I've used that composite method ever since. I've never particularly felt comfortable with large ball mics of the sort that the great majority of other harp guys use, but when I picked up the Shure PE5 that I currently use, back in the mid 1980s, it almost immediately felt like THE mic for me. Shape-wise and sound-wise. And I've been using it ever since. It took me many years to evolve into the set of smallish amps I now use; I wasted a lot of time trying to get the sound I heard in my head on larger amps, the sort of amps that everybody else was using. Each student, each player, ultimately has to find what works for him, and the mix of techniques, equipment, and influences won't--and shouldn't!--be the same from player to player.
As for that Howard Levy photo: his head is angled slightly up, so the effective upward tilt of the harp relative to his mouth is 5-10 degrees. Which to say, about four-and-a-half angels dancing on the head of a pin.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Nov 24, 2013 12:21 PM
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Frank
3377 posts
Nov 24, 2013
12:17 PM
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There it is- Howard proudly demonstrating... the proverbial "LIPBLOCK" :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 24, 2013 12:18 PM
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MindTheGap
67 posts
Nov 24, 2013
12:40 PM
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kudzurunner - that seems like good advice.
In many ways it would be easier to learn with just one teacher, they'd have a method and you go with it trusting that it works. With the harmonica we are listening to a whole world of ideas and opinions.
The trick is to work out which ideas (technique or equipment) are essential and which are personal taste - that's not always easy. Some of the opinions about these things are strongly held and expressed.
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MindTheGap
68 posts
Nov 24, 2013
12:46 PM
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...btw one of the first things we get drilled into us from every source is that the most important thing to develop is acoustic tone. We then read from major players that tilting the harp is a must for good tone - that is why this particular topic is such a hot potato.
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WinslowYerxa
433 posts
Nov 24, 2013
1:33 PM
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I just reviewed Howard Levy's video lessons at the Artistworks site howardharmonica.com. He teaches both pucker and tongue block without ever mentioning tilting. However, appears to tilt slightly. It's hard to say definitely, as the camera never views him from the angle given by Milsson in the post above.
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Winslow
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dougharps
482 posts
Nov 24, 2013
1:51 PM
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I think this has been a productive thread, and despite occasion moments of tension, it remained civil and informative. I love this forum!
@groyster1
I didn't recall Tony Glover mentioning tilting, but I haven't used that book much since the '70s. Maybe that book is why when I looked in the mirror I saw that I use a 20 - 30 degree tilt! Or maybe over the years I drifted into using the tilt because it worked for me?
I still don't see it as a must use kind of technique, but obviously it works for me, and I will mention it to students. I did mention it a few years ago to a guy who was having trouble learning bending, but I don't know where I had heard of it... Maybe on a forum? Maybe Larry???
Anyway, thanks all!
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Doug S.
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timeistight
1428 posts
Nov 24, 2013
1:52 PM
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If I recall correctly, Levy isn't dogmatic about tilting; he just says that some players tilt (in either direction) while others don't tilt and leaves it up to student preference.
I don't think Barrett teaches tilting now that he's a full-time tongue blocker.
Generally, it seems that a preference for tilting correlates with a preference for lip blocking. Tongue blockers don't seem as likely to tilt.
Last Edited by timeistight on Nov 24, 2013 1:55 PM
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Frank
3378 posts
Nov 24, 2013
1:56 PM
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The Deep Relaxed Embouchure for Single Notes
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 25, 2013 6:49 AM
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harpdude61
1903 posts
Nov 24, 2013
2:08 PM
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Just for the record, I'm gonna say I am at more like 25 to 30 degrees tilt.
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Frank
3379 posts
Nov 24, 2013
2:08 PM
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Little Berzerker Willie shows his technique :)
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Frank
3380 posts
Nov 24, 2013
2:15 PM
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Here is a horizontal approach :)
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The Centipide Saloon
Tip Your Waiter Please
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groyster1
2473 posts
Nov 24, 2013
3:02 PM
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@dougharps
on page 32 in tonys book,he says"there is another way to bend notes but its sort of a cop-out and its not half as flexible as dropping jaw &tongue down to floor of mouth"still review tonys book....it was first in blues harp instruction
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The Iceman
1294 posts
Nov 24, 2013
5:02 PM
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Here's my experience as a teacher...
As mentioned above, I start students' orientation to the harmonica with a 45 degree tilt. I keep reinforcing it when they drop that harmonica down. Most learn to ingrain the tilt as habit...one reason that I prefer teaching someone who has never played harmonica.
What is interesting is that, during a lesson, when the student is having a problem getting single notes, projecting his sound and/or even has problems bending, I remind them to tilt the harmonica up and most of the problems solve themselves.
What do you imagine could be the conclusion?
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Nov 24, 2013 6:32 PM
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Stevelegh
876 posts
Nov 25, 2013
5:05 AM
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I have to be honest, I don't quite understand what all the fuss is.
The main advantage of lip blocking is that there is no real learning curve. I went from a tongue blocker of over 20 years to a lip blocker (tilted harp) almost instantly and can switch back and forth as I want with no bother.
In addition to this, I now tend to tilt the harp downwards when I'm playing oompah type stuff in first position. Why? Because it works for me.
Tilting may not have had any publicity until the mid 90's, but that doesn't mean anything with regards to its validity.
All I can say is try it if you want. You might like it. From my experience, technique doesn't suffer and if you find its not for you, then go back to what you were doing before.
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Komuso
225 posts
Nov 25, 2013
5:11 AM
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That's nothing...my 4 year old started playing his Big Six vertically...I almost stopped him with a "NO THAT'S NOT THE WAY YOU PLAY IT!" but caught myself just in time.
He was having too much fun laughing, better to foster experimentation than conformation!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Grey Owl
393 posts
Nov 25, 2013
5:49 AM
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Tis an interesting thread. I am of the opinion that if something works for a lot of folk then why not give it a try, can't harm eh? I have given it a go and it didn't produce any discernable tonal difference and it felt a bit uncomfortable but that is to be expected as I have been holding and playing the harp for so long in one fashion and that being tilted down around 15 degrees and I also slant the harp around 20 degrees from horizontal.
I don't think my playing style is one that should be recommended to students but I have made it work for me. I'm going to try this opposite tilt for a while and see how it goes though.
Here is an interesting still I have captured from one of Christelle's videos which demonstrates the tilt she applies.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Nov 25, 2013 5:51 AM
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Frank
3381 posts
Nov 25, 2013
6:08 AM
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HARP GEAR shows How to get better tone<
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 25, 2013 6:51 AM
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Stevelegh
877 posts
Nov 25, 2013
6:37 AM
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@Frank:
I think the fact that someone has taken the trouble to make this speaks volumes...
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Frank
3382 posts
Nov 25, 2013
6:48 AM
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Those pictures are copied from the net Steve, I didn't "create" them myself - if that's what you mean :) I got them here The Deep Relaxed Embouchure for Single Notes....JP Allens website!
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 25, 2013 6:50 AM
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Stevelegh
878 posts
Nov 25, 2013
7:18 AM
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@Frank:
No, that's what I mean. It seems the advocates for this method are saying there is no downside. I agree.
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Frank
3384 posts
Nov 25, 2013
7:39 AM
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Capisce :)
Below is the 'pucker' method...
This photo is the 'lip block' method...
Obviously - as a player, one would want to be able to take advantage of both methods accordingly :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 25, 2013 7:45 AM
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walterharp
1229 posts
Nov 25, 2013
7:41 AM
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I think harpwrench summed it up, and cracked me up too..
"I didn't mean to imply it's wrong to do it because the greats didn't FWIW. Just sayin' it ain't wrong NOT to do it."
weird thing is I do both depending upon what tone I am trying to get, but I certainly ain't one of the greats!
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harpdude61
1904 posts
Nov 25, 2013
9:17 AM
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Frank's pic above with the side profile is what I was referring to earlier. The bend in the cover plate, just above the holes, fits nicely into the corners of the mouth. It allows you to relax. The cheek and lip/mouth muscles can just fall limp.
If you hold the harp level and stay that relaxed, you would have openings/leaks in the side of the mouth.
So if this guy rolled the harp up level, he would have to use a little muscle and go into a slight kissy shape to seal his lips around the harmonica.
Just my observation for information purposes. Do NOT try this at home.
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harpdude61
1905 posts
Nov 25, 2013
9:31 AM
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Frank...the pencil sketch of lip blocking falsely implies that you need to contort your lower lip to play a sing note. Not at all.
It's an equation.
degree angle of harp x relaxation of lower jaw x percentage of mouth opening....you adjust these variables to go from single notes, double stops, and chords while lip blocked.
Which brings up another observation I believe. ...
It takes less movement, muscle, and reshaping to go from a single note to a 3 note chord for someone that tilts, as compared to someone that holds the harp level.
Not that it matters...but to play the lightning fast passages J.R. does, with nuances and color even on the shortest notes, the slight tilt/less work theory may apply.
FACT: No matter what style you play, the less effort it takes to get from note "A" to note "B" to note "C", the faster you can play it.
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The Iceman
1296 posts
Nov 25, 2013
10:43 AM
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With so many approaches and philosophies regarding harmonica technique available on the net and in books and recordings, there is almost too much information out there.
I've found the best approach is to choose ONE philosophy/teacher and go 100% with it.
DO NOT START TO PICK AND CHOOSE BETWEEN TOO MANY DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES. This works against any real self imposed understanding of how best to simplify and approach the techniques.
I tell my students that, while studying with me, not to delve into other teaching approaches unless I find that they reinforce what I do.
My experience...after continuously re-inventing my concepts over 15 years of teaching (trying out all the different suggestions), I've found that the most accelerated learning program and best results in my students have come from the 45 degree up tilt as a baseline.
After all, I am paid to get the student up and running as quickly as possible.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Nov 25, 2013 10:46 AM
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Frank
3386 posts
Nov 25, 2013
12:30 PM
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Whatever embouchure you are in the midst of perfecting, the best advice is, never give up - and you will earn the results that your seek :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 25, 2013 12:32 PM
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Stevelegh
880 posts
Nov 25, 2013
12:49 PM
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My wife went DRE (deep relaxed embouchure) on her first attempt.
I suggest trying it on non harp playing friends and family members.
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scojo
436 posts
Nov 25, 2013
1:26 PM
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Boy, let's not get started on the way *I* tilt the harp when puckering. Those of you like kudzu and harpdude who have been with me in the real world know what I'm talking about. I don't know how or why I started doing it -- I suspect it was a psychological thing to make bending easier, which makes no real sense whatsoever -- and I certainly don't recommend that my students emulate it. (I go out of my way to tell them NOT to emulate it.)
But, on the other hand, I don't feel that it's hurt me in any discernible way, except maybe when cupping a bullet mic (which I rarely use anyway). So, it's now a part of how I do things and that's that. I really liked Kudzu's post above that begins with "I certainly applaud experimentation"... I think he nailed it there, as did harpdude on several of his comments. "Enlarging the space" is a good thing in my book.
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harpdude61
1907 posts
Nov 25, 2013
2:07 PM
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Hey scojo! I have actually saw 2 other players that use your technique. They were great too. Have you ever named it buddy?
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scojo
437 posts
Nov 25, 2013
2:53 PM
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Actually, harpdude, maybe I *will* name it "Buddy." :) Hope you are well man... Happy Thanksgiving!
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harpdude61
1908 posts
Nov 25, 2013
4:55 PM
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Ha! How about the Scojo Slant?
For those that don't know Scott he is a fantastic player I met at Hill Country Harmonica. He plays single notes with one end of the harp substantially higher than the other. Not the tilt we have discussed here, but the length of the harp.
He overbends with the best of them and uses many positions to play outside the standard blues progressions.
Any other players famous players do this?
How about the Albert Dip?
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