Wondering what I should look for and how to go about getting it.
Here is what I want:
A Jt30 mic manufactured in Youngstown. Why? I don't know I h]just think I would be cool to have a mic older than me. I also want it Identifiable as old. If I wanted a new mic I wouldn't want a JT-30
I don't know what kind of element I want. This is where you can help. What would be best. I don't think I would want a crystal element. Why? My understanding is they have great sound (if you get a good one) they are expensive, fragile and hard to find. But I don't know what my other options are.
I don't think I want the shell modified with vol. control. Rather, I believe that there is a volume control adaptor available that attached to the shell where the cord plugs in, Is this true? What is that adaptor called.
I would probably want the shell repainted. Not anything crazy. Just one color maybe brown.
I would want it to work, sound good and be reliable. All for under $100 (O.K. a guy can dream can't he) price (if reasonable) is not a problem.
I have looked online and not found what I am looking for. I wonder if it would be better to buy the shell "untested" off of e-bay for $20 or so and have someone (maybe Greg) put new guts in it and painted.
any advice would be helpful. BTW if you have my dream mic or know someone that does and its for sale let me know.
---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Stick....I have a CM in mine JT30 and like it a lot....I paid 80 just for the element (make sure you get the correct gasket as well. You can find the inline volume pots online somewhere...I just don't remember which fella makes em....I'm sure someone else on the forum knows. ---------- Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
Chuck gurney will build you a JT 30 but not for that price. I'm nearly there in saving for my black cr original factory 520. fatbottom-mics.com ---------- "Blow as thou pleaseth"
Here's an excerpt from the man himself, "Let me address the elements first so you will have a better idea of the choices you have. The golden rule of thumb with any of the Shure magnetic style elements is "the older the better". With that said, the Black Label Controlled Reluctance (CR) elements are the Cadillac of the elements. (My choice and many pros as well) They were made only from 1949-53 only and were the only elements that have the larger phenolic coils in them (more wire) and they are also the only ones that were still being "hand wound" which is where the magic comes in. Due to the coils being hand wound and tiny voids in the coil wiring made from human error along with the larger coils, the black labels have their own unique tone and characteristics. That is the same reason why guitar players are searching for the 1940 and 50s hand wound pickups, you can only get that type of tone from a hand would product.The black labels have a great bottom end, a superb cutting mid range along with a great upper register as well. They also have a nice warm brown tone to them along with a nice aged breakup or distortion. Great all the way around. The white label CR (1954-58) were still quite good but Shure decided to change the large coil to a smaller "plastic" style (less wire) and then went to "machine winding" instead of hand winding. It was a great move for the company for getting better speech response, but it was the beginning of the end for the really great sounding elements such as the black labels. The white CRs are generally known for having decent bottom ends, good cutting mids and a higher register than the blk CRs. Also a bit more of a harsh distortion. The 3 digit CMs were about as good as the wht CRs but seem to have a more raspy distortion to them which can sometimes have a more of a rock sound or stiffness to them and not the warm brown tone like the CRs. The 2 letter coded CMs are when the company really got cheap with the assembly, the parts and the overall tone of the elements. They will work but will also tend to feedback more easily due to being wound so tight. They can have a really harsh distortion and have almost no bottom end. That would be my last resort for an element if you are looking for a pro sound" Hope that helps... ---------- "Blow as thou pleaseth"
hes right. black label is the best. i have one in my brown bullet an it has the best sound ever. perfect chicago tone.an like he said mine 1940's brown bullet small shell black label cr element built by chuck gurney i paid $400. ----------
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 9:24 AM
I'm not really a black label CR fan myself. Mine had good tone but not great tone (maybe mine was a duff one). I sold it on and don't miss it at all.
I used to love the MC151 but then Astatic stopped making those which was a grim day, as in my opinion those old crystals had the best tone of all.
These days I use CM elements all the time in my bullet mics.
At the end of the day though it's all subjective with harp mics. It's the same as harps, amps, effects, styles, etc. One mans meat is another mans poison.
Come on guys! you know I was kidding about the $100 I know its gonna cost an arm and a leg. But thanks for the advice it is very helpful. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 12:09 PM
I have two black CR's that aren't good at all, by anyone's standards whatsoever.... so much for that myth. It's a game of chance. Fun if you're lucky, expensive and disappointing if you're not. Makes more sense with some things to just pony up the $$$ and buy one from someone reputable.
harpwrench;Just wondering,Where did you purchase the BL,s.Is there anyone in particular to stay away from?I know they aren,t cheap I hope for your sake that you didn,t take to bad of a bath.
Hi Bro If want 2 Bid on a mic from ebay,check my Youtube vid buying vintage mics on ebay,,my User name nastyolddog it may be of help U out get a good deal,,if you want to buy a strait out custom not to expensive contact 2 Bro's tell them what U want they will do it for under $250 USA,,contact Ebay sellers Technobird AKA Dave Wren..or bluesace55 he will give you want you want and it's classic work,,i like his work very neat A1 all for under $250
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 3:31 PM
There's a guy here in Denver who has a JT-30 for sale, with a 151 crystal element. He claims it is from Kevin's Harps, the Crystal Balls model. He only wants $100 for it; put an ad on Craigslist.
They were both given to me to experiment with, so I'm not out much. I messed around with building amps and mics before concentrating on harmonicas, and still sometimes break out the soldering iron as a diversion. The point is that sometimes you just don't know what you're getting, kinda like a blind date. Might be great, but it might not. The blackbacks I have could have just as easily sold on ebay for hundreds of $$ if the guys that had them weren't honest. They could have easily stuck them in an old shell and called them "untested". Guys like Chuck and Greg and Mr Microphone have to eat those, and spread the cost to the good ones.
The Rule of thumb you guys must think of is. If the guy selling it on ebay is a harp player then he aint gonna sell a good one so I would stick to reputable guys that have already been mentioned.
I have wasted alot of money on gambles that were just crap.
be warned ebay can be for suckers do your research.
Harpwrench,.. I agree with you 100%,..yea you can pay the 400 Bucks an maybe get that great black label,.maybe not <> Remember the Black label ,. white label CR & CM's were all made for ham radio not harp,.the only mic made by Shure as a harp mic was the 520DX Dynamic,..an you can even make that a good sounding harp mic.
I built Oxharp (a member here) one of my Shure 99C86 CM low Z- high Z trans with my Super Boost Mod using one of my Chopped Bluesblaster shells called Louisiana Smoke. Heres what he had to say about it: Hi Ron, I think the mic (L- Smoke) is a kick ass mic and pound for pound Dollar for Dollar I dont think you can get a better one out there. I have not had a chance to catch up with my mates to show off the mic but will soon I hope.
I think that the mic compares really well with the 2 black label CR.s that I have.
It is better than one with a lower out put.
I compared it with my best CR and although the output of my CR was better than yours I could get almost the same dirt/ grit by turning up my amp abit.
As the CRs cost 3 times as much as yours I am very pleased with the results.
I will try and get a review on tyou tube for you as soon as I get my camera fixed in th shop but it may be terminal. Speak soon
He did a review up on youtube of my mic ,.played through his computer speakers an said I may? even get around to doing another vid through my Bassman as I dont think this vid shows off just how good your mics really are.
Also built Mr. Giles King of the UK band Hokie Joint,.the same Bluesblaster Not Chopped steup with an on -off switch an My super Boost Mod low Z- High Z,.Called Memphis Blood.
My point here is Stickman,. you don't need to spend Big $$$ to sound Simply Unique,..yea,.maybe you won't find a great soundin mic for 100 bucks ,.but if you look around you'll find something just as good as that black label for less $$$.
http://www.myspace.com/sukmmics
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 3:39 PM
Oxharp,..Well said ,..If the guy selling it on ebay is a harp player then he aint gonna sell a good one so I would stick to reputable guys that have already been mentioned. The above mentioned reputable guys did not include Rharley,...
Let it be known Rharley plays Guitar not Harp,..but I know what the Blues tone of the harp is an I strive to build the best Blues mic at a price that won't break the bank.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 2:46 PM
Stickman - JT-30's are nice. I spent $40 on my first one back in 1979. Now, a nice used one costs a lot of dough. I've been burned enough on ebay to stop buying them there.
In fact, there are a lot of great harp microphones out there at reasonable prices. I stopped looking for JT-30's a while ago. There are lots of great stick mics out there that can be had a good prices. A Shure 545 is a great mic that can still be had at reasonable prices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8km8698lo7U,,,,,get to it win a cheap vintage mic on Ebay U save $60 maybe $200 bucks..easy.One rule of thumb buying from Ebay check sellers feedbacks this is a good guide to there Products sold..buy from a seller who offers a return option if you are not happy with his Product,,all of the above info all good Like Oxman says Ebay can Be tricky but you can win,,like myself some Classic Mic's for less than $50 just because no one bids on it or like the vid get some real cheap deals it's worth a look
ya i own two mics from ron sunshine an one from rharley. both sellers i trust and would buy from again. an for me to trust it has to really wow me. both sellers did just that. ----------
What's special about a JT30? Nothing. When they were new they cost $7 and were the cheapest mics in the Astatic line. (Same thing is true of the Shure 707 crystal.) They were used by harp players because they were cheap.
I can understand wanting to SOUND like old blues masters - but if they used a JT30, that means using the same crystal element. They're still available but expensive. Put a CM in there and they sound like a Shure 520. Nothing wrong with that, but it brings us back to the shell. You say you want a fresh coat of paint on it - then it is indistinguishable from a newer JT30 or BluesBlaster shell.
Anything special about a Jt30 shell? Well, it is a little smaller in diameter than a 520 shell. That makes the mic a little easier to cup. BUT you also have the "ears" on the grill are really uncomfortable on your hands.
I wouldn't limit yourself to a JT30 for a shell. It works, but so do many others. Some of the old Electrovoice mics like the 630 and the Spherex 920 make great mics. The EV m43/U military mics are nice shells too and very small around. My wood mics are another one. (More expensive but more comfortable than a JT30 by far.) And there are lots of others.
I can set you up with a shell and a like-new MC-151 crystal OR Shure CM or CR and it won't be anywhere near $425.
I don't know. Probably the same thing that is so special about a '67 Corvette Stingray? Practical? Hell NO! Sexy? Hell Yah!
BTW Greg one of your mics would be my second choice. They are pretty damn sweet. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 10:04 PM
I don't know. Probably the same thing that is so special about a '67 Corvette Stingray? Practical? Hell NO! Sexy? Hell Yah!"
cosign on that. there just cool lookin.
btw rharley's mics are CLEAN. he sent me pics of the build. it totally tears it down cleans out every thing an rebuilds it to a brand new condition. also whats good about that is he showed me pics of the crap that can be inside the mic on the element itself. does not look like something you would want near your mouth. when buying a vintage mic you really dont know where its been all these years. could have been part of a ham radio for some backwoods hick who eats children for all you know. ----------
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 11:12 PM
The Build Jonsparrow's talkin about is the EV 641 Build (Blue Devil) I just sold him,..The pics of the Element I sent him was not of his build but of another build (Insane) The problem with the EV 641 & 634 that you can not see,. Is that EV never used a grille cloth,..the holes in the grille screen are larger the normal so over the many yrs if it's been used in a harsh metal working environment ( bump shop,.tool& die shop,.grinding shop) The magnet on the element sucks those metal shaving into it,.the slivers of metal may become dislodged when you inhale,..getting stuck in your harp or worse right into your mouth,..That may not happen ,..but I take them completely apart to make sure it does not.
Stickman ,..if your lookin for great tone in a Mic ,.with the look of Cobra Snake check into the EV 641 & 634 high Z mics
Well firstly it's history. A lot of the great players used this mic, so people want the same gear as the players they want to emulate (same reason that a lot of players use a '57 Ultimate into a rack of pedals and an HG50).
Then of course there is the cupping factor.
A JT30 is pretty light and is fairly easy to cup. Like Dennis Greunling says it's a natural shape to hold. The "ears" that Greg refers too have never bothered me at all, although I can see how some folks might be bothered by them.
Then of course there are it's looks.
A JT30 looks cooler than a Polar bear on an ice cube.
It can be fitted with a volume control or on/off switch which looks like it was there from day one.
Also it's elements can be easily swapped over to fit CM/CR/Crystal/Ceramic elements.
It has a distinct sound that makes a very pleasing tonal sound to the ears when used for blues.
Crystals elements (good ones!) have a very unique sound which is truly wonderful in my opinion for amplified harmonica. They are though very prone to damage. If they get dropped they can break. Also if they are left in extremes of hot or cold they can die. They also over time get weaker as the crystal naturally degrades. You can even kill them by soldering them if your not careful.
The crystal elements that are made today are very, inferior in quality to the old Astatic MC151. That and the Shure R7 are the ones to have (if you can find a good one)
Ceramic elements are basically the same as crystals but a little tougher. Although they will also degarde over time and lose power.
Controlled Magnetic elements 99A86, 99B86 are real workhorse elements. They can withstand a lot of abuse and keep on going. They usually have a lot of midrange presence and overdrive very easily.
Controlled Reluctance elements tend to sound smoother than CM (closer to a crystal sound. Again they can withstand a lot of abuse.
Good examples of what the different elements sound like are:
Crystal MC151 - Rod Piazza, Rick Estrin, Steve Guyger (Steve may also use a ceramic)
Ceramic MC127 - Gary Primich, Paul Lamb
Controlled Reluctance - Dennis Gruenling (his earlier stuff like "Up all Night" I think uses a Black CR. Dennis?)
Controlled Magnetic - Doug Jay, Mark Wenner (although Mark maybe using a CR)
If I have any of these wrong I'm sure somebody will correct me. Also I should imagine that Greg Heumann or Dennis Gruenling would be able to give a far better description of the different elements and their tonal qualities than I can.
I have to say that if someone could reproduce a crystal element with the with the same tonal qualities as an MC151 or an R7 then they would make a killing in the harmonica world.
DUDE KINGLY! THATS MY MIC! in the first vid. does this guy have a website (I'll look for it) anybody here ever bought from him? ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Thanks Nasty. that looks good. I'll consider that one.
Thanks Kingly your help has been over the top.
Again guys I was kidding about the $100. I'm willing to pay what it takes to get what I want. The hard part is convincing the wife. Im also going to hold of on buying for 3 reasons.
1. I want to make sure I'm employed next year.
2. I need to decide if id rather spend the $ on going to Mississippi
3. (most important) I want to know and understand what I am buying before I blow a wad of cash on piece of junk (Greg may have a good point, and he makes some pretty hot mic, that I wouldn't mind owning)
---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Stick, I have a CR20SL Bullet shell with a CR Low impedance American made White element. Now the story is that the work was originally done by Gurney who put the Low to High impedance transformer in the mic. I can't verify that as I bought it 2nd hand but I can attest that it is a very sweet toned mic, could use a paint job, I've used it with my 59 Bassman and my Eopi and it is a sweet growling mic. Only thing I do ont like about it it has no vol control and when I use the vol control from Greg all the connections are about 8" long at the end of the mic. Now I dont want to sell the vol control cause I may need it in the future but I can part with the mic I think I paid $175 for it, offered it at $135 when I was trying to raise money for custom harps and would probably part with it for $145 you pay the shipping.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 7:46 AM
I agree with Greg Huemannn 100% on this: There is nothing particularly special about a JT-30 mic unles it has the original 151 crystal element. Those old mics had great tone to go with a Bassman amp and were somewhat feedback resistant. But those elements are very fragile and getting harder to find.
If you've swapped a Shure CM element into your JT-30 shell you have another Green Bullet clone. However, the smaller cavity inside the shell will make the mic sound a bit more trebly than a GB.
And, as with all bullet mics with a CM element, feedback will be a tough issue. CM and CR elements are very omni-directional and are feedback magnets.
The "ears" on the side of the JT-30 do become uncomfortable after a while. I played one for years, for the same reason many guys use them now: They are thought to be THE mic with all the historic mojo.
You will save a LOT of money and get better tone if avoid the whole JT-30 snipe hunt and get one of Greg Heumann's mics, or perhaps one of the excellent mics from Front and Center Microphones.
Hey Stickman. If you're still looking for your JT-30, you can email me at ron@ronsunshine.com and let me know what you want in it. I will build to order. I have all kinds of shells and elements. Thanks, Kingley, for posting those videos here. That first one of the four was just shipped to its new home in Finland, along with a matching brown biscuit/chrome grill with a black CR. Nice pair! I also have a 1942 Youngstown JT-30 with the original crystal, listed on Ebay right now, for $275, Buy it Now. Amazing find. Use that link that Kingley posted, and it will always take you to my current Ebay listings. I know that info is supposed to go somewhere else, but I'm in a hurry. Cheers, Ron Sunshine
PS The guy who owns Bluesharpmics.com is an EXCELLENT builder and friend of mine. Jeremy Snell. He has built tons of mics for me. I highly recommend his work.
Yah Deluxe, I saw that and been droolin' on my shoes! But as I said have have to wait until next month to find out if I'm going to contracted for next year before I start blowing bucks. Its scary times for Art teachers. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Hey Rharley. Thanks for letting me know about this thread. Yeah, Stickman. Scary times for musicians, too. That is why I am selling mics on Ebay. Anyway, I have many shells and many elements, kind of a ridiculous inventory. I have a nice grey Youngstown JT-30 shell that is sitting empty. I also have another brown JT with a chrome grill on my bench, but I think it is from Conneaut. Still, late 40s vintage, at the youngest. I was about to install a nice fat CM in it. I have a bunch of grey Conneaut JT shells ranging from late 40s to 70s. And then there are the Blues Blaster shells. Let me know when you're ready and I will put together whatever you like.
To Jfllr1: When you refer to The Man Himself, are you quoting Chuck Gurney? I have a hard time believing Chuck said that about CM elements having no bottom. That is not a true statement. I don't know who said it, but I have to heartily disagree. The elements are individuals. They all sound a little different. I would not generalize like that.
I have had (and have now) CM elements that will blow your mind. Old ones, and new ones.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2010 7:37 PM
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2010 9:24 AM