ZackPomerleau
610 posts
Feb 01, 2010
2:38 PM
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This is from Wikipedia: "Another method is to play in the key one whole tone above that of the harmonica. On a C-tuned harmonica, this would mean playing in the key of D. This is known as "slant harp" or "third position" playing, and although this is much less intuitive- as it requires the ability to bend notes completely accurately, and there are fewer useful chords available than in 1st or 2nd position playing, it offers many notes that are not achievable in the other positions wihout overblows."
Does anyone else find this to be somewhat of a false statement? I find third position to be one of the most useful positions as almost every note is useable, and there are SO many octave and split chord possibilities.
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saregapadanisa
106 posts
Feb 01, 2010
2:53 PM
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Yes, it allows you to get almost full use of your three octaves very nicely. Chords may be not as straightforward as in 2nd pos, but there is enough to fool around. I'm switching more and more to 3rd pos.
Sugar Blue is an awsome 3rd position player, just check what he does !
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toddlgreene
698 posts
Feb 01, 2010
2:59 PM
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I like 3rd, but I never even think to utilize it unless I'm playing over a minor-keyed tune...I need to to work it in more, methinks.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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ZackPomerleau
611 posts
Feb 01, 2010
3:02 PM
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I use it quite a bit, actually. It can be easily a major position, but you gotta overblow the five hole, and no five draw.
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Ryan
108 posts
Feb 01, 2010
3:10 PM
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I don't know why they say it's much less intuitive. And you only really NEED to bend notes in the bottom register(when playing blues that is). In middle and top registers one doesn't even need to know how to bend in order to sound really bluesy.
I always wonder why more beginner books don't include songs in 3rd position when people are first learning to play. They only give tabs for 1st position folk songs, which most people aren't that interested in and don't find it all that fun to play. But if they tabbed out something in 3rd postion they could have them playing something that actually sounds really bluesy (which is most likely what they're interested in) without having to even know how to bend. They wouldn't even have to understand what positions are at that point, just have the song tabbed out. I think, by playing at least some of the type of music they're interested in (in the early stages), it would make it a lot more fun and help keep them interested in advancing.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 3:14 PM
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Oisin
429 posts
Feb 01, 2010
3:22 PM
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I agree with that statement totally. I am still trying to get my head around 3rd position and it is, for me anyway, nowhere nearly as intuitive as 2nd position.
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Ryan
110 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:12 PM
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"I agree with that statement totally. I am still trying to get my head around 3rd position and it is, for me anyway, nowhere nearly as intuitive as 2nd position. "
Do you think that it's maybe because you're so use to playing in 2nd postion, and the majority of everything you hear is in 2nd, that now you're having a hard time breaking out of 2nd?
I remember when I first started learning 3rd position I was able to find my way around mostly intuitively, in the middle and top octave that is. The reason I think it's more intuitive is because when you're playing in the middle and top octave you don't need to bend (but if you want to you just bend the 6draw) and there's no regular blow or draw note that's going to sound really bad. You may want to avoid the 7draw and 3draw sometimes(the major 6th) but it can be made to fit too, it's the same as the 2blow and 5blow in second position. (Note: I'm refering to using 3rd pos. in a blues context)
I think if someone's got second position down, they shouldn't have much trouble adjusting to playing 3rd position in the middle octave. This is because the pattern for playing the blues scale is almost identical, except for two small things. The minor third doesn't require a bend in 3rd position (2nd pos.: 3draw with a half step bend, 3rd pos.: 5draw). The minor/flatted 7th in 3rd pos. is a blow note instead of a draw note (2nd pos.: 5draw, 3rd pos.: 7blow). Other than those two things, the pattern is exactly the same(in the middle octave only), so I think making the adjustment shouldn't be too difficult
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 4:19 PM
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Shredder
128 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:23 PM
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Zack, in your post you refer to the C harp and moving up to a D harp to get 3rd position.
My question is-- Is the C harp concidered 1 st position or 2nd position.
I still havn't got a full grasp of the position thing except for 1st and 2nd. I play 2nd 99% of the time.
Mike:}
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ZackPomerleau
613 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:38 PM
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If the harp says C then that is first, second is G. Of course, some harmonicas are labelled by their second position , but most aren't.
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Oisin
430 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:39 PM
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Thanks for that info Ryan and Oldwailer. I've tried a few times to play tunes in 3rd but just not getting it right. I've watched a guy at our jam play both 2nd and 3rd position on the same tune and it sounds great so it is something I wat to learn properly.
Oisin
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Shredder
129 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:57 PM
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Zack,
Ok here we go again. If C is 1st isnt F 2nd " cross harp"Move up 4 for cross cde-F
All my harps are labled stright except for a few monor L/O's
I think I'm getting into this circle of 5Th's and confusing cross harp whit it.
In the 5th circle C would be 1st cdef-G would be 2nd and gabc-D would be 3rd so would A be the 4th position or Ab? defg-A
Sorry for being a dumb ass
I've always been mathmaticly challanged:{
Now I'm positionaly challanged :0
Mike
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 4:58 PM
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HarpNinja
117 posts
Feb 01, 2010
5:47 PM
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I play more third than any other position. Third is my favorite! Share the love!!!
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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ZackPomerleau
614 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:08 PM
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Cross harp is the fifth. The fifth of the C scale, also known as the dominant, is G.
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nineveh_harp
39 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:17 PM
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@ Shredder,
On a C harp:
1st- C
2nd- G
3rd- Dm
4th- Am
5th- Em
12th- F
All the rest are "bent" positions which is beyond my capabilities right now! 3rd position rules, but I find 5th position to be quite tasty for minor key blues and rock as well.
-Sam
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hvyj
128 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:31 PM
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You know, one does NOT need to OB to play major in third position.
Major do-re-me scale, third position:
D1 B2 D2* D3/B3 D3** D3 D4* D4
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Ryan
113 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:35 PM
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"1st- C
2nd- G
3rd- Dm
4th- Am
5th- Em
12th- F"
Personally I wouldn't label a position as minor like this. Many people call positions, like 3rd, "minor positions" because some of the qualities of that postion make it easier to play minor(and the mode they naturally fall in is minor), but it is also quite possible to play those positions as major. I think when you call a position minor it can confuse people and make them think that you can only play that position in a minor mode. If you've got all the bends and overblows down(you don't need OB's for some of them), then it is possible to play every position in either major or minor.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 6:41 PM
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ZackPomerleau
616 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:35 PM
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hv, you're correct, unless you want the major third or the major 7th (which is an overdraw). It's fun to do, either way.
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nineveh_harp
40 posts
Feb 01, 2010
6:45 PM
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Just to clarify,
The reason I call 3rd, 4th, and 5th "minor" is because the minor key is the most intuitive in those positions. Obviously any position CAN be played either major or minor, but if one is not yet familiar with 3rd, 4th, or 5th, then minor keys will be the easiest to start with.
-Sam
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Shredder
130 posts
Feb 01, 2010
7:07 PM
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Ok guy's, I'm finally grasping this theory, I'm slow but I'll get there.
I have been confusing the cross harp method with what you have been trying to explain to me.
I just have to blank the cross harp stuff out and go with the fifth's.
Would it be safe to say just move up 5 keys each time?
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 7:08 PM
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ZackPomerleau
617 posts
Feb 01, 2010
7:26 PM
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Here is actually the easiest way to do it. If you pick up a harp and want to know what it will play in second position, take the key of the harmonica and find the five chord or note of that key. That's the cross key. If you have the key of the song, though, find out the FOUR chord or note of that key, and that'll be the harp to use.
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Shredder
131 posts
Feb 01, 2010
8:27 PM
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Ok so were talking the 1-4-5 chord progression, I understand that.
The 5th note of a C progression is G so this is 2nd position.I under stand this part now.I see how it falls in line with the examples written above.
Next,now the song is written in C for example. Take the 4th note of a C progression and thats F. I got that,it's cross harp style.This is whatI've been doing for years.
You just opened up the window for me, thanks. I had never thought of it as the 1-4-5 progression. I always just counted up 4 keys.
I learned to play cross harp way before I learned Guitar and the 1-4-5 progression.
Mike
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Big Nancy
13 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:22 PM
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Here you go shred... I think this is how it goes....
1rst 2nd 3rd 4th
A ----- D ----- G ----- F
Bb ----- Eb ----- G#/Ab--- F#
B ----- E ----- A ----- G
C ----- F ----- Bb ----- G#/Ab
C#/Db--- F# ----- B ----- A
D ----- G ----- C ----- Bb
Eb ----- G#/Ab -- C#/Db--- B
E ----- A ----- D ----- C
F ----- Bb ----- Eb ----- C#/Db
F# ----- B ----- E ----- D
G ----- C ----- F ----- Eb
Ab/G#--- C# ----- F# ----- E
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www.bignancy.com
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 11:33 PM
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oldwailer
1051 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:50 AM
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Hey, Big Nancy--I just spent some time over on your site--there's some good blues over there! Of course, you already know that--I'm just telling others about it.
You Rock!
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GamblersHand
153 posts
Feb 02, 2010
1:19 AM
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@Big Nancy
I think that for the table you posted would benefit from a clarification that it gives the harp to play in the key of the first column.
ie. to play in A, use an A in 1st, a D in 2nd, a G in 3rd - alll of those would play "A"
I'd guess that's what you intended, but there can be confusion, as someone could interpret that an A harp will play D in 2nd position.
Also your column for 4th isn'rt right - that's actually 5th position. The first row, fourth column should be "C" not "F"
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Big Nancy
14 posts
Feb 02, 2010
2:03 AM
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thanks wailer! bet you do too!
Help him (us) out boys! It is way too late on the East Coast to be doing this.... ! If it is wrong I stand gratefully corrected -- thanks Gambler!
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www.bignancy.com
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 2:03 AM
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jawbone
255 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:09 AM
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Another little trick that may help some is - play 2nd pos. over the I chord, play 1st pos. over the IV chord and play 3rd pos. over the V chord.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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ZackPomerleau
623 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:26 AM
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Jawbone, why didn't I think of that?! I do that ALL of the time!
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jawbone
256 posts
Feb 02, 2010
7:24 AM
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I think I should give the credit to 1/2 a phil a frog, I think that's where I heard it first.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Bluefinger
37 posts
Feb 02, 2010
7:57 AM
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For some reason 3rd was the only position that gave me 10 playable holes in a row right away. It was pretty easy to get the whole tuning into my brain. In cross harp I am still a bit clumsy above the 6th hole and I run out of ideas quickly. First is always divided into 1-6 section and the 7-10 squeeky Jimmy Reed section. Third seems to come to me more naturally ... I don't know why but that's the way it is.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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