addict
96 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:02 PM
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How do you go about listening to music... how do you go about working on things... how do you cross the line between working and playing (something I struggle with).
And I don't think the answer is the same for everybody, which is why I am interested in lots of points of view.
I am not looking for shortcuts. I am sure years of working/playing help BUT I am no spring chicken. So let's leave the years and years factor out. Let's talk about how to work as effectively as possible.
And please, stick to the topic on this thread.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 1:16 PM
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waltertore
186 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:11 PM
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The way I did it was to imerse myself in the blues world for 25 years. It was all I did. Working day jobs were only when the music was slow. I moved from Ca-Belgium, lived in 6 states and 3 countries. I sought out the blues greats and learned from them. Music was synonomus with my life. I was driven to play and driven to be around those that inspired me. Now, that I am no longer playing full time, I find my off hours from work are about 80% spent in my studio recording or playing gigs/festivals sporatically. Gigs have dried up for me the more I pushed spontobeat and veered off the straight blues course. That is ok because music will always be my life and my current job is very flexible around any gigs I get. It will always be this way. If interest is generated about my approach to music, I will be there in full force. IMO one can't live with one foot in the security of job, home, family, benefits, and become all that one could be as a musician. You have to place music number one and everything else behind it. That doesn't mean taking crap/meaningless gigs. The older I get, it means taking meaningful gigs only. I have been blessed to have been inspired to learn how to record my music. It keeps me in my studio playing 3-8 hours a day and has become the most meaningful gig I have experienced in years. I actually play as much or more now than when I played full time. Not traveling, and lags between gigs are no more. If you don't make music your life, you will never know what your best could be. That is ok too. There is only so much time in our life to do things. I studied martial arts for years and had to accept I would never be a master because I wasn't wiling to dedicate my entire life to it. I enjoyed that time dearly. Those that don't dedicate their lives to music and get frustrated about it need to jump in with both feet or accept it being a part time hobby. That is unknown waters to me. I can only comment on the way I did things. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 of my music
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 12:47 PM
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Kingley
871 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:12 PM
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What I do when trying to learn a new piece is I listen to it a few times first and resist the urge to start playing along with it.
I'll listen to and try and work out in my head what's going on. I'll pick out the signature marks that make up the tune. Work out the structure of it, how many bars and where the chord changes are. I try to get a feel for the groove and work out if the harp (if there is one) is playing behind the beat, or ahead of it, or on it, and the harp position.
Then I'll find the key and pick up the relevant harp. Then begin to try and play the signature riffs. Once I have that down I'll work on the subtle nuances of the phrasing and timing.
If I feel like it's becoming hard work and not fun then I'll take a break and maybe jam to some other tunes or work on different techniques.
This approach works for me, but it may not for you because everyone is different. It's ultimately a question of finding what works best for you.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 12:14 PM
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LeeEdwards
27 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:21 PM
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I almost always never sit down with the intention of listening to something specifically to learn licks that I can use. I'll listen to music of all kinds until something really grabs me and then once I have something stuck in my head I'll work off that.
I go through phases of being disciplined where scales are practiced etc. until the passion starts to wane. Then it's time for just playing and having as much fun as possible.
Before I started teaching there was a time where sometimes I didn't want to play harp for weeks at a time, usually because I'd worked and practiced so often that it became tiresome. After a break though I would always find that I had improved. This created passion once again and the cycle repeated itself.
Now, due to my teaching schedule, there is not a day goes by where I don't play so sometimes when I do get a free day to myself the last thing I want to do is pick up a harp. Even the things you love can become a drag when experienced excessively.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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Helix
14 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:22 PM
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To add to what I said in the other thread.
You asked four different questions so I will choose "Becoming The Best Musician You Can Be"
In a nut shell my advice is to start viewing your harp work as a "product".
If you see your harp work as a product and then dedicate yourself to delivering a high quality product you are on the right path to becoming the best you can be.
If you were manufacturing a product that you could see with your eyes and evaluate its quality you would have to be honest with yourself about how it measures up.
With harp work...you can only see it with your ears so just be honest with yourself about what you are hearing and make adjustments where necessary.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 12:26 PM
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toddlgreene
838 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:24 PM
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'How you go about listening'-I'm into lots of different styles of music, even within the blues genre. One great tool I've found and utilize, especially at home, is Pandora. If I want rocked up harmonica, a la Ricci, I have a channel for that. I have another for Chicago-style playing, and yet another filled with mainly West Coast players. sometimes I may want to soak up what Butterfield or Hummel or Harman was doing-I rid myself of distractions, kill the lights, and crank it up-and do nothing but listen. I like to feel the emotion, not just the notes.
'how you go about working on things'-I don't like to copy solos note-for-note, although i can see where a beginner who isn't yet adept at improvisation might want to do so. I learn the changes and even play rhythm first, then develop how I will solo over a certain part, or if I will solo at all, depending on whether a tunes needs it.
'how you cross the line between playing and working'-I have a wife and 3 kids-I have to STEAL time to practice. It's a real struggle, being in two bands with household chores, honey-do's, etc., and finding time to practice.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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Helix
15 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:37 PM
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Transferred from the other thread:
"how do you go about listening"?
Okay...fairly vague but i will assume "to the blues".
If I am listening with a goal of playing the tune myself, then because of what I do personally I learn the melody and the vocal/lyrics and commit them strictly to memory.....nothing ever written on paper.I listen to the type of groove and try to leverage any knowledge I already have about playing harp to similar gooves to create the harp part for the new tune.
"How do you go about working on things"?
Again vague but in addition to what I wrote about the first question, I generally work without a net(read: no backing track) and try to use just my mind to generate the music I am playing to. If there was any harp on the tune I generally do not try to emulate it at all but just leverage my own playing into the creation of the new harp part. The harp part I develop becomes sort of a musical skeleton and the actual notes and phrasing that I will play when ever I play the tune will never be exactly the same.
"how do you cross the line between working and playing'?
Again not sure exactly what you mean.
I'll guess that you mean "play the harp with a goal as opposed to play the harp for pure entertainment/pleasure"
In order for me to do that I have to have a goal. The goal might be adding a new tune to a set list or working on an area of my playing i feel is lacking.
So the answer is "mindset'. If my mindset is to work up a tune I intend to introduce into the setlist then I work on it with the attitude of work instead of lighthearted playing. Once I have it dialed in I can then play it with a "playing" mindset.
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congaron
537 posts
Feb 18, 2010
12:39 PM
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I always learn an instrument mechanically until I can play the notes i want when i want them. I don't want to think about that when I am playing live. when we practice, I compose my role in each song according to what the theme of it is. I don't want every slow blues to sound the same, or every boogie to have some memorized lick in a certain place every time. I use enough structure to make my solos, play enough rhythm to support the vocals and guitar solos and basically make sure what i am doing is music, not rudiments. To do that, the rudiments must be second nature.
If there is something rudimentary i haven't learned yet, I don't try to use it in music until I can play it forwards and backwards in practice. Then I study our music to see if it will fit anywhere and add something, versus call attention to itself.
It's a pretty big picture approach that carries over from instrument to instrument. Overall, i would say "my sound" has more percussive elements in it than some, since percussion is so ingrained in me...my guitar playing ends up percussive too. I can'r remember the last Harp solo I did that didn't have rhythm on holes 1-4 as a kind of home-plate to the solo as it developed over 24 bars.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 12:44 PM
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phogi
263 posts
Feb 18, 2010
1:08 PM
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This is a great topic.
For me, there is a multi-pronged approach.
1) Practice alot. I've heard a few pro musicians talk about how much less they practice now than they used to. While I understand their reasons (not wanting to change the good thing they already have going, or perhaps feeling like they have mastered all there is) it does not work for me. I have to play everyday to maintain and improve. Do I take breaks? Yes, at least a 10 minute break for every hour of practice.
2) Listen alot, listen intently. Also, listen absentmindedly, so that you can hear general impressions. Listen to alot of people from the genre you choose. Have it playing in your car, your office if you got one. Surround yourself in music.
As for how to listen, the best answer I can think of is "constantly."
Also, I let my mind follow the melodic contours and rhythmic textures of all the parts being played. Or, if I need to focus more on one part, I block the other lines so I can get my attention where I want it.
Also, learn the expectations of the music, so that you can sense when something is being done to defy those expectations.
3) Those friends / spouses you got that think music is a waste of time? You get one guess as to what I have to say about that.
4) Work vs. Play. I tell my students "Music is like fun, but slightly different." I think of creativity like this: it's not some rare special thing I have. Its a toxin I must squeeze out through playing. It's something I have to do. Are there times when I don't feel like playing? Yeah. So I sit around for a little while, and eventually I feel like playing again.
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HarpNinja
182 posts
Feb 18, 2010
2:04 PM
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Listen to a lot of music all the time...study theory...play your music...work on solo vamping using different scales...gig...meditate.
I really relate to the Effortless Mastery approach. I try to just let the playing happen and work on scales, tone, and rhythm when I practice.
Nothing beats playing without thinking...except being a dad, IMO.
Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Doggycam
16 posts
Feb 18, 2010
2:35 PM
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I'm gigging songs,playing and singing, so maybe take a slightly different approach to them.
I try and learn the solo's note for note.
Learn the vocal, inflections and phrasing.
Usually takes about 2 weeks /song. Practising in the car to and from work. 30mins each way.
The first few times I gig the song, I'll attempt to play note for note.
After a while of gigging the song, I stop playing note for note and just play the intro and outro from the solo and improvise the middle.Or just the original intro at the start of the song and improvise the whole solo.
If the song has no harp on the original, or I don't like the original solo.
I'll play the melody, then build a solo round that always trying to lead back to the melody.
I hope this means that each song in the set, has its own distinct solo that goes with it. Rather than just using a generic solo that could be used over anything in that key.
I find learning note for note, teaches me new phrasing and combinations of notes, that I would not have thought of on my own.
There is a caveat. Some solos are so good, I continue to play them note for note.
Its my way of paying hommage to the greats :o)
The vocal I make my own as soon as I play it with the band, but learning from the original helps.
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phogi
264 posts
Feb 18, 2010
2:41 PM
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As a music teacher, I highly approve of doggycam's method.
Especially:
"I hope this means that each song in the set, has its own distinct solo that goes with it. Rather than just using a generic solo that could be used over anything in that key."
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HarpNinja
183 posts
Feb 18, 2010
3:01 PM
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I've never been a fan of note for note or scripting solos, but can respect that. If you really are locked into what is going on with the band, it is hard to play the same solo, or even part of the same solo, over different songs.
I also have a hard time sticking to the vocal melody. it is all about the moment.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Delta Dirt
113 posts
Feb 18, 2010
3:56 PM
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What Kingley said. Well put... but ill add. Im up in years too. I feel if i try to push it or force the song on myself to learn it wont happen.I have no technical training. Never knew there was this much attention to harmonica until i stumbled upon this stuff on sites a few months ago and ive been playing for 35 years...in small clubs.I dont know a lot of the musical jargon thats spoken here. But what i do have is a good ear and good taste. And thats the most important thing you can have imo.I hear guys playing on you tube that are so freaking stiff and force things.... its comical. They learn their lessons but dont swing..absolutely no soul. So i guess what im saying is let the music move you and not force it. Youll know when its time to dig in and lay down the heavy blowing. Let the music you are listening to subconciouslly(spelling?)influence your playing.
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Big Nancy
23 posts
Feb 18, 2010
10:30 PM
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I look at music as a kind of graphic relief map... loaded with elements and layers. When I listen my spine and shoulders find the drums... my chest and hips find the bass... etc . The key to good ensemble playing is finding your place among the layers.... Think of a good Phil Spector song... each layer on its own means nothing but when he put them together he got "the wall of sound" I hope I have explained this well enough....
I break the music down to the lowest common denominator... Look at each lick as elementally as you can and then start adding to it. It may be note for note but I would prefer to see folks adding their own interpretations and expressions one at a time to form a completely new version, a fresh look at an old standard. It then becomes yours (and nobody ever plays yours better than you which defeats the imitative school at the gate!) I break it down to the simplest most elemental bass line of the song and know that if I lock with one of the rhythm elements, stay off of the vocalist, and say what I came to say in the allotted time to do so... that I am having a good day!
I think this takes care of the whole work vs play issue because if you are freely expressing yourself through playing it is not work... it is playing ... and playing with TRUE devotion because the piece now represents you.
The most important issue in all that you do is to have FUN... if you are considering it work it is no longer fun! You don't have to be happy with your progress at all times but you must have some fun by days end.... I insist! lol!
Get away from working strictly with recorded music and go to jams... dive into pieces that you do not know... take the risk of failing for the rewards that will follow. And when you fail have fun with that too!
Make sense? Let me know if you find this helpful...
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Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 10:31 PM
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ZackPomerleau
748 posts
Feb 18, 2010
11:37 PM
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Listen to as much music as you can, and don't limit yourself to just one style. Just because you play harmonica doesn't mean you cannot listen to Jazz. If anything, that is better because it'll freshen things up. Learn some music theory, and learn how to form basic chords. It really helps.
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nacoran
1160 posts
Feb 19, 2010
12:31 AM
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I try to keep a harp with me all the time. Sometimes I like to play to get a mood out of me, sometimes I like to play because I have a melody stuck in my head. I find sometimes I improve more if I take a little time off from time to time. Sometimes I won't pick up a harmonica for a couple days, but when I go back it's easier to master what I was working on. In memory theory that's called consolidation (at least if I'm remembering right!)
I've sorted parts of my song library by key so I can just have one harp out for a while. Keying songs is the only thing I've found related to harmonica that I really hate.
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HarpNinja
186 posts
Feb 19, 2010
6:37 AM
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Just a couple of random thoughts from thinking about this...
Learn any "riffs" you come up with in all octaves and then transpose to different keys.
Learn which position fits the style of a song best.
Stop learning material from blues harp players and start copying the blues singers. I used to do that all the time and play with the vocalist and then not play along with the harp solos. Then I would try to color the melody.
Mainly, thinking like a singer has been of a lot of interest to me. Even during the Grammys I grabbed a harp and tried to copy Beyonce's riffing.
And the last one is to let the song dictate what you play. A lot of players just throw down what they want to play and don't consider the overall song. Everything is rhythm and tone. There are only so many note choices that coming up with cool phrasing is more important to me than note choice.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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XHarp
268 posts
Feb 19, 2010
7:34 AM
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Being the best musician you can be?
Listen to all genre's
Learn to feel the groove in each song, in all genre's.
Learn to find the song key by ear, without an instrument. Use the instrument to verify your decision only after you are sure that you have the key.
Listen to other musicians input and feedback earnestly.
Play publically as often as you can.
Challenge yourself every day to learn something new or refine something old.
As for learning a tune - Never have your listening and learning areas combined. Listen somewhere else. Once you have a tune that you want to learn on, take it to your practice area and get on it.
use technology to your best adavantage, especially us older goons who don't have the refined hearing that someone who has been doing this all their life would have. I have a couple of "slowdowner" tools that I use to learn something.
Breathing exercises.
Did I mention breathing exercises?
Have Fun, keep your ears open and..... "Keep it in your mouth"
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2010 7:36 AM
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congaron
540 posts
Feb 19, 2010
7:53 AM
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"Stop learning material from blues harp players and start copying the blues singers."
I like this advice and piggy back to include other instruments in blues and other genres. Playing like a sax player or trumpet player will help separate you from the guitar player, even when you are playing unison fill licks right along with him/her. This is something we do frequently in my band. Call and response is cool, but matching a lick or two note for note with the lead guitar can really spice up a song!
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Tuckster
398 posts
Feb 19, 2010
8:43 AM
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Some great advice here. Make sure to record yourself practicing. It can sometimes be shocking to hear what you actually played vs. what you thought you played.
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addict
98 posts
Feb 19, 2010
10:37 AM
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I've been reading all your thoughtful replies...thank you. I hope more people continue to add their points of view.
I do listen a lot. One of the things I get stuck on is what does it mean to "listen intently"? I am not sure I do that..
I also practice a lot which includes working on techniques and riffs and my homework and jamming and recording myself . But I get bored with my improvisations. And that one seems hard for me to fix.
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Kingley
875 posts
Feb 19, 2010
10:44 AM
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"listen intently"
To me it means to listen to all the instruments individually and collectively to see how they all fit with each other. Also listening to all the subtle nuances of the players.
The improvisation thing will get better over time and from playing with other musicians. The more you learn, the bigger you're vocabulary will become, so then you'll have more to say in the music.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2010 10:45 AM
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congaron
543 posts
Feb 19, 2010
11:44 AM
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I also recommend you sing...as you listen. Sing potential harp stuff (not the chords...lol) and sing the actual vocals, sing whatever makes you happy. Singing helps you remember what you listen to.
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Big Nancy
24 posts
Feb 19, 2010
6:15 PM
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Listening Intently.... may mean developing a blind man's ear.... I spend 90 per cent of my stage time with closed eyes....! I hear better with my eyes closed... my brain is wired to distraction! My sight works against my auditory senses so I shut my eyes and start to separate those layers... harp, guitar, bass, horn, drums, keys. Identify they lines that they are playing and play with or counter to them as the situation warrants. I always feature great horn players in my band as I myself love to play horn lines... but for diversity will start with them and then maybe lock with the bass line, play off of the singer, vamp with the keys... or go harp ballistica all over everybody as the situation dictates!
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Joe_L
37 posts
Feb 19, 2010
9:59 PM
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How do you go about listening to music?
I usually have something going on an iPod or iTunes as background music. If something catches my ear, I will go back and listen to it much more closely.
How do you go about working on things?
I will listen to a tune several times and try to steal stuff from it. Most of what I do is traditional Blues and I am learning it the traditional way. Find things I like and copy them. Eventually, I'll develop my own thing that's based on the stuff I dig.
How do you cross the line between working and playing?
I don't consider it work. It's supposed to be fun. Since, I'm not a professional musician, I have the luxury to play the things I enjoy playing. When it becomes work, I move onto something else.
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