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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
Top-10 all-time harp greats list at MBH
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kudzurunner
198 posts
Dec 20, 2008
10:49 PM
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I've considerably expanded an item that used to take up space in the middle of my FAQs page. On the index to the left of this page it's called "all-time harp greats." The page itself is subtitled "Top-10, Second-10, and Honorable Mention."
Here's the link:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/blues_harp_gods.html
I'm hoping the lists will do two things: 1) help less experienced blues harmonica students figure out what the good stuff is, so they won't waste too much time woodshedding with crap; and 2) provoke thoughtful discussion and civil disagreements.
Just as important as the lists of players themselves are the criteria of judgment that I used in working up the lists. Trying to figure out why we value what we value is always a good exercise.
Anyway, have fun. I look forward to the dialogue.
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2008 10:52 PM
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Alan
Guest
Dec 21, 2008
7:39 AM
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How about Charlie McCoy?
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Andrew
43 posts
Dec 21, 2008
7:45 AM
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One day I'm gonna find a DeFord Bailey CD. I love that man!
(it's gonna have to be in the shops/stores, though - I don't buy much on the internet)
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Chris Jones
4 posts
Dec 21, 2008
7:49 AM
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Glad to see the Wolf make the top 10, kinda dissapointed to see Dr. Ross with just honorable mention, I would rather his playing than Little Walter's.
Good thang that come to my remind is no one will be woodshedding with crap if they go by your list.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2008 8:08 AM
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TylerLannan
35 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:33 AM
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I think that some important players were left off of the honorable mention list. For instance chris Michalek def has originality and does some pretty amazing things with positions and pedals. P.T. Gazelle also has his own sound, he might not be the most soulful player ever but he has technichal mastery (ie. Control of bends) as well as accuracy at a decent speed. I also think that randy singer should have been an honorable mention. His versitility, technical mastery, and ability to play both chromatic and diaonic equally well should have gained him a spot. And last but not least, I don't think I remember seeing Howard levy on the list? Is this possible. I'll have to look again but in the event that he's not the reason he should be there imho goes without saying
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*you can only keep what you have by giving it away*
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TylerLannan
36 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:36 AM
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I'm gonna double dip here. I forgot about LD Miller. If nothing else age alone and technical mastery of the instrument should have gained him a spot.
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*you can only keep what you have by giving it away*
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Andrew
45 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:37 AM
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I'd be a fool to criticize any living harp player wouldn't I!
But Howard Levy - is there actually any music in between his notes? (to paraphrase Jimi Hendrix)
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TylerLannan
37 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:45 AM
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I put him on there not so much cause of how he plays but what he did for the instrument. He may not have invented overblows but he certainly brought them out of the closet to the world.
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*you can only keep what you have by giving it away*
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Dec 21, 2008
9:24 AM
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Andrew,
I completely disagree with you on Howard Levy. Howard is easily one of the most souldful musicians I have ever heard. Keep in mind, I've heard more of Howard's music than most harp players, I've played with him, spent time at his home and he's spent time in my home...I know him very well. Howard's music is exactly the way Howard is in person...highly emotional, sensitive, intelligent, domineering, commanding, narcissistic, complex, compassionate, fluid and soulful. The components that make up Howard are in his soul and expressed through his music.
LD Miller doesn't make the list in my book. He's already reached his limit unless he makes some major changes. I hope he doesn't end up like Buster Brody
This is my list of harp greats that I encourage my students to listen. Keep in mind, I teach progressive and envelope pushing harp playing, I am not at all concerned with traditional players. I don't watch black and white movies either.
Lee Oskar
Madcat Ruth
Jason Ricci
Howard Levy
Bill Barret
Brendan Power
Stevie Wonder
John Popper
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MrVerylongusername
73 posts
Dec 21, 2008
9:43 AM
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Chris, I absolutely agree about Howard Levy, anyone who doesn't think there is soulful melody in what he plays needs to buy his "Out of the Box" DVD.
But hang on guys... Wasn't Adam's point that these were BLUES players?
So whilst I don't disagree that any of the names mentioned are amazing, boundary pushing players; and whilst many I'm sure are able to play a good harp blues, I really don't think Charlie McCoy (country) Stevie Wonder (Soul/pop), Lee Oskar (Jazz funk) and Howard Levy (just about anything!) belong on a list of blues harpers. Great harmonica players yes, blues harpers - well it's not what they are best known for.
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Andrew
46 posts
Dec 21, 2008
9:53 AM
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"I don't watch black and white movies either."
Youngsters!
Next you'll be telling me you don't listen to 78s!
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kudzurunner
199 posts
Dec 21, 2008
10:36 AM
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MrVeryLong:
You're right. McCoy, Michalek, and Levy aren't on the list because they're not primarily blues players. None of them would call themselves blues players, although of course any of them could throw down, and have thrown down, some incredibly good blues if called on to do that. Popper is borderline--it's probably more precise to call him a rock player--but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, in part because his band has "blues" in the name and in part because I heard him play live, several times, in the Dan Lynch blues bar where I learned to play. He was playining slow blues, and they were some incredible slow blues.
I may have included Lee Oskar in my third list, but really I should take him off for precisely that reason. Norton Buffalo has one incredibly good all-blues album, which is why I included him. Stevie Wonder is simply a fantastic harmonica player, but I don't see him as primarily a blues player, in the tradition--although as I listened to Jimmy Reed's "Honest I Do" the other day, I was struck freshly by his brilliance, and I wouldn't be surprised if somebody told me that Stevie began, early in his career, by copying Jimmy's high-note stuff; it certainly sounds as though that's where Stevie is coming from.
I know Randy, have heard him play, and I'm not quite sure what to do with him. He certainly can play blues, but the range of his talents is clearly diminished by calling him a blues harmonica player--in a way, for example, that my talents are NOT diminished by calling me that, even if I push the boundaries a bit. Randy, on his own website, describes himself, if I'm not wrong, as the first, or original, smooth jazz harmonicist. That's why I left him off. I love what he does.
Grant Dermody, it occurs to me, should be on the list.
Edited to add: I've just added Grant and I've also added a note about Levy and Stevie.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2008 10:53 AM
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Bb
Guest
Dec 21, 2008
11:00 AM
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Ranking stuff is fun. And funny.
I'd add a name to the long list of "more people to watch."
West Weston in the UK. Hoping he cuts a record sometime soon.
Adam, I love to see that George Smith is in the Top 10. I wish there was more recorded output from him.
-Bob
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kudzurunner
200 posts
Dec 21, 2008
11:06 AM
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I've made a few more adjustments. I took Dave Therault off the list. I've only heard a couple of pieces by him; they were incredible, and they were jazz, not blues. Much as I love jazz, the purpose of this list is not to rank or inventory jazz players like Therault, Toots, Heinrich Meurkens (sp?), my buddy William Galison, Randy Singer, P.T. Gazell, our own Chris Michalek, and the other fifty incredible players I don't know about, including a whole European contingent. There's a place and time for such a list; I'm just not the guy to compile it. Carlos del Junco belongs on my list, BTW, because his first album was a blues album and one of his recent albums is called BLUES MONGREL. He clearly belongs in this conversation.
I need to add Rob Papparozzi, my homebody from NYC. His talents are much broader than blues, but blues is where he's made his living; he currently gigs with The Blues Brother and has worked for many years in a blues-based funky band with Bernard Purdie on drums called The Hudson River Rats. Blues guy.
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bluesnut
49 posts
Dec 21, 2008
11:08 AM
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Peg Leg Sam. He should be on the list just for having to get around on one leg made out of wood. I found him on youtube.
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kudzurunner
201 posts
Dec 21, 2008
11:22 AM
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I don't know his stuff. Billy Bizor, though, just came to mind. Plays on that documentary with Lightnin' Hopkins. Incredibly soulful sound.
I've added a final note to the new page, mentioning Chris M. and two other jazz players, but also making clear why I'm sidestepping the issue of jazz harmonica.
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MrVerylongusername
74 posts
Dec 21, 2008
11:30 AM
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Adam, just a correction about Rob Papparozzi
He's hung up the fedora and shades and resigned his place in the Blues Brothers Band. He now gigs full time with Blood Sweat and Tears.
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rustywater
31 posts
Dec 21, 2008
1:11 PM
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What a fascinating thread this is, I dont think anyone could question the top ten list at all.
I would add 2 harp playrs to the honorable list. From the Uk Paul Jones. His recent acoustic CD with Dave Kelly on guitar shows his versatility aside from the excellent work with the Blues Band. In my humble opinion a better all round player than Mayall.
The other I would add is Mark Wenner from the Nighthawks. There is a video on the Kennedy Centre website of him playing acoustic with Terry Garland but again some of his work with the Nighthawks on the Rock This House CD is brilliant.
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rustywater
32 posts
Dec 21, 2008
1:58 PM
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I found this Paul Jones clip on UTube which shows how good a harp player this man is, vastly under rated in my view, see what you think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjBos4qOcu0
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kudzurunner
202 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:04 PM
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I'm afraid the Paul Jones clip you suggested just didn't do it for me. Wish it did; I have no desire to make enemies.
Mark Wenner, on the other hand, certainly belongs on the list. Or at least I think he does.
So, for my money, does the fine Canadian player, Paul Reddick. (I think that's how it's spelled.) He happens to be one of the best living blues songwriters--lyrics and music both--in my estimation, but he's also a fine harp player.
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2008 1:25 PM
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kudzurunner
203 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:26 PM
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Another add: Rock Bottom. THE harp guy for many years in Florida, they tell me. Here's a YT clip that helps explain that claim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65w5esPl_ek
Anybody ever heard of Annette Taborn? Neither had I. She's an OK harp player--and unusual: not a whole lot of African-American women blowing harp these days, apart from Gaye Adegbalola--but an unbelievably good blues singer who hits all the right pitches with beautiful mellow energy. Here's a link. Check out the first free mp3 and you'll want to download 'em all:
http://www.boomkak.com/cookengreen/annette.html
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2008 8:31 PM
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oldwailer
396 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:32 PM
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Here's a short Paul Reddick clip--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckG0oPRYr-Q
Very nice!
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harmonicanick
91 posts
Dec 22, 2008
5:51 AM
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Adam
Please include Paul Lamb from Newcastle UK, his band is the Kingsnakes.
He is top of the tree in the Uk and he plays real blues. He played with Brownie McGee...great sound & great band
Merry Christmas
Nick
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kudzurunner
204 posts
Dec 22, 2008
8:14 AM
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Nick:
So here's where my stated procedure kicks in. Point me towards some evidence: mp3s that I can preview and/or purchase; a couple of YouTube clips. I've certainly heard his name many times; I'm not familiar with his work. I'm willing to be persuaded. Persuade me.
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kudzurunner
205 posts
Dec 22, 2008
8:23 AM
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Actually, I'll modify that request. I've checked out five YouTube videos featuring his playing. He easily makes my Honorable Mention list. But I'll be honest: what I hear is a terrific but extremely familiar traditionalist sound deriving from Little Walter and Sonny Terry. No obvious individuating signature. John Mayall, Jason Ricci, and Magic Dick, by contrast, have that signature.
But I'm willing to be persuaded that the five videos I surveyed don't do him justice; that he's more original than I know. You brought his name into the picture, and I'm grateful that you did. Now I'd like you to point me towards a couple of mp3s that you think manifest the Paul Lambness of Paul Lamb, if that makes any sense.
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snakes
58 posts
Dec 22, 2008
1:46 PM
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What do you think of Mark DuFresne? I would agree if you said his main draw was his voice, but he plays excellent chromatic and diatonic. I've seen him several times live and have several of his solo CD's as well as a couple while he was with Roomful of Blues. He has a link on the Hohner site.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Dec 22, 2008
3:55 PM
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There are lots of good harp players but only a handful of legendary ones...Those to me are the guys who have carved out their own unique sound, something that is not easy to do.
I think a huge list of this guy and that guy is too much for young students. I'm not a fan of listen to harmonica players so my opinion, as usual, is a little jaded.
However everybody kinda picks an idol to copy and branch of from. My biggest three influences are Madcat Ruth, Lee Oskar and Howard Levy - mostly Howard Levy.
So a person could pick Mark DuFresne and learn a bunch from him but is anybody gonna say "I can tell he's a Mark Dufresne guy?" Nope... you're gonna get lumped into one of a few players.
Little Walter
Big Walter
Sonny Boy
Sugar Blue
Howard Levy
John Popper
Bob Dylan
Sonny Terry
Jason Ricci
There are a few more "obscure" influences some might be able to point out like James Cotton or Madcat Ruth and Lee Oskar. Generally, nobody thinks of these player when trying to identify the sound of others.
There are even more obscure influence but most can't point them out. Take my buddy Jason Ricci for example...how many people can pin point that he's really a mix of Pat Ramsey and Adam Gussow? Lots of players think he's totally original. (he is but you know what I'm saying)
I'm easy as I am immediately pegged as a Howard Levy guy. I love it when people have no idea who Howard is and people mistake me for a musical genius, little do they know that I'm nothing more than a copy cat.
The point of this little rant is not to disparage any players on Adam's list but to reel in young players and let them know it might be best to go to the source and that is usually one of the legendary players of the harmonica world.
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Tuckster
62 posts
Dec 22, 2008
7:24 PM
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Unfortunately,he wasn't around long enough,but the late Lester Butler sure got my attention. Paul deLay is "on the bubble" for my top 10,but he really didn't influence a lot of players. Not many try to copy him. I wonder why? Ha Ha
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bluesnut
52 posts
Dec 22, 2008
8:57 PM
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Here is one for the list. I kinda faintly recall this obscure, off the beaten path, some times herd of, somewhat influential guy and he has only beed around 3 decades or so. Some feel the need to copy/learn from and possibly even call the harp god of this sight. My fuzzy memory says he lives in Oxford Mississippi. What was his name?
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2008 9:08 PM
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Tuckster
63 posts
Dec 22, 2008
10:26 PM
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You're right, bluesnut. We are forgetting him. But where should we put him on the list? I'll have to think about that one. Only if cornered,would I make a Top 10 list,or even a Top 20. I like so many harp players. Adam's criteria narrows it down some.
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2008 10:29 PM
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Andrew
51 posts
Dec 23, 2008
12:38 AM
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I agree with Chris - I think people should adhere more to Adam's criteria: naming every harp player you can think of who's any good is going to create clutter. It's starting to look like one of those threads where you ask "who are the three greatest athletes of all time?", and an 18-year-old lists every single current member of his local football team in response.
If you don't like Adam's top 10 or second 10, say who your own top 10 are and who your second 10 are. And if you're a beginner it's OK to copy anyone who's better than you, until you're better than them.
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2008 12:39 AM
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kudzurunner
206 posts
Dec 23, 2008
10:24 AM
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Chris:
There's no huge list of this guy and that guy. There are two lists of 10 players each, separated by an implicit line. I'm quite clear about that--and I'm also quite clear about the criteria I've used and the fact that ALL lists are inevitably subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I think you need to trust beginners a little more.
Now, if you go to Dave Gage's several sites, you will indeed find long and confusing lists of harp players. I specifically did not want to duplicate what he and others have already done.
I wanted to say to beginners, in no uncertain terms, "Start with these ten guys." And, "If you want more, move on to these ten guys." It's about defining the canonical figures in a 100-year tradition. The essential players; the guys who ARE the tradition. There's absolutely nothing confusing about that, to beginners or to anybody else.
The Honorable Mention thing is just to provoke conversation among harp nerds who care about that sort of thing. Also, it's not clear to me where the bar should be set for Honorable Mention. Should it be legitimate contenders for the Top-20 who I for some reason didn't select, or merely a selection of my fellow professionals, living and dead, who rise above mere journeyman status--a sort of MBH equivalent of "the 100 best lawyers in your state"? I know to many good players; I've included most of them. Beginners should ignore that third big long list, if they want. I trust them to do that. As for the harp nerds (and here I'm including myself): I wanted to provoke conversation. I'm glad I've done that.
About Jason: I disagree with you. Jason is quite a bit more than a pastiche of Pat Ramsey and Adam Gussow. His terrific 12th position playing, for example, doesn't owe a damned thing to either of us. In fact, Jason these day meets the originality criterion in flying colors. Just the other day a song came on the radio and I knew it was him within about five seconds, although I'd never heard the specific cut.
James Cotton makes my Top-10 for several reasons: a uniquely powerful and completely individuated sound; his connection with Sonny Boy on one end, Muddy Waters in the middle, and the rock/blues world on the other end (the "influence" criterion, making him a crucial part of the great tradition); and the album 100% Cotton, especially "Creeper Creeps Again," which I consider a Top-10 all time blues harmonica instrumental, fully the equal of any other cut you could name. But that's just me.
About the harp god from Oxford, Mississippi: I have no problem with Honorably Mentioning myself, but I'm quite clearly not on the all-time Top 20 list. If I keep uploading YouTube videos and torpedoing my academic career by carrying on with this time-sink of a website, though, I might just meet the "influence" criterion at some future point, after the Chinese fully enter the digital age and I've got a billion kids around the world hoping to blow me off the stage with zillion-mile-an-hour overblow apocalypses.
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2008 10:50 AM
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kudzurunner
207 posts
Dec 23, 2008
10:44 AM
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Chris:
I should add that I believe you're restricting yourself primarily to one of my several criteria, the aspect of excellence that I called "influence." Your list is an interesting one, and worthy in that respect: you've included THE great jazz guy, Howard; and THE great folk guy, Dylan. Huge influences on the sound of harp players, no queston, although their influence in blues players is pretty small, I'd say--Howard has influenced me, Carlos, and Jason hugely, but how many other blues players? Most blues harp players hate Dylan, in my experience; he's the negative ideal.
There's one huge name missing from your list: Butterfield. His influence is everywhere these days, from Rob Paparozzi to Jean-Jacques Milteau. His fast triplets heavily influenced me. Billy Branch, too, perhaps.
But remember: I laid out several other criteria. DeFord Bailey may be remembered these days only by Joe Filisko and Wade Schuman and a few others, but he remains a huge talent.
Junior Wells? Here I'm clearly making value judgments. I don't think his influence, strictly as a harp player, has been huge, but if I were pointing a beginning student towards one player in the top 10 as an example of deep blues tonality AND originality (achieved in the aftermath of Little Walter's genius, no less), I'd refer them to Junior Wells. He's the road not taken for many contemporary players, but he makes my Top 10 for other reasons. You include Dylan but leave off JW. I get it, but I don't get it--especially in light of your alarm about how my "long lists" might confuse beginners. I think your invocation of Dylan and failure to include JW is more likely to confuse and--gasp!--mislead beginners. Didn't most of them end up picking up a harp because they thought Dylan was the guy? But then we get ahold of them, and it's our duty to guide them towards the light. HOODOO MAN BLUES is the word and the way, brother.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Dec 23, 2008
10:57 AM
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I wasn't speaking of your list Adam, I was speaking more in terms of all of us, me included, saying this guys should be on this list or that list after awhile to become confusing.
You know Jason is one of my buds and I didn't mean to take anything away from his originality with my comments. I was just saying, to MY ears I could peg his major influences which are rather obscure.
Jason easily makes any "top ten" list in my book. Heck, he's been an influence on me and I don't like most harp players. I haven't tried to play any of Howard's stuff since about 1994 and until very recently no other harp play as inspired me to sit down and learn their stuff except Jason Ricci. After I heard him the the first time, I thought, I WANT TO SOUND LIKE THIS GUY. I've already given up.
BTW- you're a player that inspired me to sit down and learn your stuff. I had all of the Satan and Adam stuff that was on cassette and played them till they wore out.
I personally have trouble identifying James Cotton with just a few notes unless it's one of his tunes that I know. I know it's just me but I was never into that power wanking thing. (I mean wanking in an enduring way)
As for me trusting beginners... I listen and take note but rarely trust. I am however, on a much different path than most players to the point I am an artist and musician before I would call myself a harmonica player. I know I hand out heavy opinions but that's just kinda how I am. I've given up trying to sugar coat things, it's just not me... I don't ever mean harm but my filtering mechanism must be damaged and I just say what I think. My music is that way too.
I'm rambling again...
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kudzurunner
208 posts
Dec 23, 2008
1:23 PM
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No offense taken. And I'm very happy for your input. As a competitive runner, I always hope I'll have a strong guy or two challenging me in the final mile, since strong challenges bring out my best. I have my beliefs, preferences, and prejudices, but I'm always willing to dialogue, and this sometimes means having my pockets of ignorance exposed. I've learned a heck of a lot about the brave new post-Howard world of harmonica in the last year. I'm glad you learned by copying my stuff, but I know that was a long time ago; I can't even begin to copy your stuff!
The conversation rolls on......
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2008 1:24 PM
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bluesnut
53 posts
Dec 23, 2008
8:52 PM
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Ok, I was having fun with my last post but i was serious about Adam. I have been influenced Adam enough to vote him on to the list. But where? I vote Honorable mention.
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HarpFan
Guest
Dec 25, 2008
10:00 PM
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OK, my name's Paul, and Adam vaguely knows who I am. Still, it's Christmas and I'm in the mood to stir up some sheit. By my moniker you can see I'm a fan, not a player, so y'all kick me right on out soon as you get the notion.
To start with, it's Adam's list, so he's right. Ahem. Hiccup.
In the spirit of Adam's first post and the philosopher who hoped to write _The Revaluation of All Values_, and paraphrasing the exact quote, "If I had to carry all of my reasons around w/ me that'd be a heavy burden," and now quoting another of his quotes directly (in translation): "Reason is a whore, for it lacks all integrity," I propose two entirely new lists:
List A) Sonny Boy Williamson (II) & Sonny Terry (in that order)
&
List B) All The Rest
In the back of my mind I'd entertain a few titles: Sonny's Squal, Blues of the Lowlands; Trust Me, Baby, Mighty Long Time, Nine Below Zero, Temperature 110 (and some others). I'd also keep Adam's "criteria" vaguely in mind, especially "Blues" and "tradition," or more properly: Blues w/ a _feelin'_.
I'd also say that I'd have to agree w/ Sonny Boy when he said of Chess Records that, "I built this mother f*****," he was right, and so obviously right, that any controversy would be, well, just that, and no more. So if Sonny Boy told me to STFU, then I'd listen to him - but the rest of y'all can kindly keep it to yourselves. "Keepin' It To Myself," now THERE'S a mantra...
Furthermore, I'd add that a harp player, _any_ harp player, oughtta have some _personality_, tho I coulda said style, but I really meant personality, and if not, then s/he can go straight to h e double toothpicks for all I care. Good taste never goes out of style. But it seems that List A) includes the two outstanding, lasting & enduring personalities - that come across on record I mean. Plus they're the best players. Maybe. IOW, I believe they are, but it really doesn't matter. Maybe tommorow I'll feel otherwise. Just Doubt it. Can't be sure. A local DJ here in KC 20 years ago told me that "Piazza knocks Dick in the dirt." I was literally offended. I didn't know who Rod Piazza was. No biggie beings he was wrong then and he's more wrong now.
"I ain't got nothin' to say about that. I let my harmonica do the talkin'" -Sonny Terry
The funniest quote I heard all week was: "Kid Rock Sucks C***." Amen. Come to think of it, maybe there's a jingle in there. I heard a semi-pro bar band in Lawrence once perform a tune called "Pablo Picasso Was An Ass****," or something very close to that, so why not? Not that Kid & Pablo bear any relation...
Blasted Blessings To All
PS Mr. Michalek, I'd like to know your opinion of Bob Dylan's very long blow at the end of the "alternate take" of "Idiot Wind" (issued on CBS Records "Bootleg Series" in the 1990's I believe)? Timeless, no? Is it his longest & prettiest on record? Gives me the shivvers just thinkin' bout it...how could anybody, anywhere, anyhow, IMPROVE upon the so- called "original" take?! Defies logic or reason...er, uh, sanity...
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HarpFan
Guest
Dec 25, 2008
10:58 PM
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BTW wanted to add congrats on your continuing successes Mr. Gussow, and thanks to all above for interesting remarks, some are a little obscure but I enjoy all the players I see mentioned that I recognize, being more a casual listener by comparison and looking forward to more of the informative posts which mine obviously isn't so much so but it's encouraging to see that harp is going strong...you guys keep the groove and myself & others will keep listening! _certainly_ to Piazza too, partly because the man's obviously got imense talent - I'm in no posistion to critique - highly enjoy his records for sure...
Happy Holidays!
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kudzurunner
209 posts
Dec 26, 2008
5:21 AM
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HarpFan:
I appreciate your contributions, and I like your list: Sonny Boy II, Sonny Terry, and then the rest. I understand your criteria, too.
The problem is, after the first blush of your super-simple listmaking wears off--and I do like it--I'm forced to ask: no Little Walter? Some players would put him first: huge originality, huge influence, huge technical gift. Amplfied harp--the sound that has dominated for the past half-century--essentially doesn't happen without LW.
Big Walter? Some would claim that he is every bit Sonny Boy II's equal in the soulfulness department, the Big Personality department.
So at the very least, it's hard not to think that a Top 4 is called for.
Ah, but then there's John Lee Williamson, the real original Sonny Boy. Remember that Rice Miller tried to capitalize on the Sonny Boy name; that's how good John Lee was in his own time. Jr. Wells and Little Walter both come directly out of JLW. Listen to LW's "The Stuff You Gotta Watch." Early unamplified LW is basically fancied-up JLW. (I personally think that JLW was perhaps the best player of "fills".)
Sheerly in terms of how important he was in the 100-year development of the blues idiom on the harmonica, anybody would have to say that Sonny Boy I is one of five at the very top.
Which leaves who? Cotton, Jr. Wells, Butterfield....I can't even remember my own list. Butterfield makes it because he, too, does something startlingly original by the mid-70s with his fast triplet lines. Cotton and Wells are forced to do something original in the aftermath of Big Walter and they do.
George Smith? Huge influence on the West Coast scene.
I can't remember my last Top-10 nominee.
BTW, some would insist that Jimmy Reed is Top-10.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2008 5:34 AM
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kudzurunner
210 posts
Dec 26, 2008
5:27 AM
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Howlin' Wolf is the guy I couldn't remember. Well well well.
I think his singing style--which derives from Charlie Patton (huge roughness) and Jimmy Rodgers (the yodeling singing brakeman)--has been much more influential than his harp style. It's important to remember that my Top-10 lists don't care at all about singing. We're talking strictly about harp playing. That makes a difference. In terms of sheer power AS A BLUES PERFORMER, Wolf is probably top-3 in any all-time list of guys who also play harp. But I'm thinking about him, in this context, sheerly as a harp player. I'm not 100% sure of my claim; I'd be interested in hearing more from players who agree (and disagree) with me. What are HW's best HARP cuts? "Worried About My Baby"? "Cadillac Daddy?"
I put him in the Top 10 because of his tone--his vibrato, his immediate sonic imprint. The three-note test.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2008 5:35 AM
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HarpFan
Guest
Dec 26, 2008
9:49 AM
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Thanks kindly, Adam, glad tidings to all.
Since you asked, and asked pretty much the question I'd been mediating, er, uh, meditating on this morning, bearing in mind that I'm your garden variety, superficial _consumer_, for lack of a better expression, and not a producer, or as the Brits used to say, a punter, I think, maybe there's some slim outside chance that there's some intrinsic, twisted value in my 2 cents, and if not, then so be it.
Like the way you think, Adam, at least in words, for sure, and if you recall in my PM that I'd neglected Wolf as well, in a roundabout way, and made pains to try to remedy that...
A flood of thoughts...and maybe some tears, and maybe some heartache, and maybe a yearning, for days gone by, nay, "Down through the ages" as Mr. Morrison (and others might say): but for the most part, Adam, your Wolf remarks make me think of _presence_, which he undoubtedly had in as very big (no pun) way.
Here's an instance: when Brian Jones of the Stones (again, sorry 'bout that) announces, on the TV show Shindig, I think, that he's going to "Bring out [his] idol, Howlin' Wolf," that's when mystique translates into _presence_. And that, to me, seems a little more genuine, and a little less "gimmic," (poor word hence the quotes) if ... interupt ... my girl has a bad cold ... she stepped in and said, "Who ya writin' to now?" and then "Every time I move it hurts," and I said, "Maybe there's a Blues in there," "Every time you move, it hurts me, too" ... so I had to play "2120 South Michican Avenue" for her on some pretty good auxilery speakers but not the same at teeth-rattling volume that I crave...
Anyhow, she just left, liking it a bit, but having had about enough. I could _never_ get enough of _that_ harp and _that_ groove...not to mention (only on the Decca NOT the LOndon, excised, shorter version) the guitars - are they hollow-body? They remind me of Hubert Sumlin...glorious...anyway, Wolf waggin' his finger at us and
accusing, "How many more years, since I have to let you dog me around?" it's just transcendent. His presence, that is, and seems to have less to do with harmonica playing,even tho it's outstanding harp. So what I'm gonna do is go back and look at Adam's criteria, which I gave a pretty loose glance at, and see if I can find sometning in addition to
"Mystique," i.e., "presence," & "charisma," both in sound & delivery, IOW, what Adam's calling PERFORMANCE, a lot better description than personality. So why no Little Walter?
He's Top Ten material, that's for sure, but I'm struck that at least half of his best PERFORMANCES, or his biggest PRESENCE is in backing Muddy. I think Adam Gussow and Charlie Hilbert very interesting rendition of Muddy's "She Moves Me" is a superb examle of what comes to mind. The first or second time I heard the Chess version, and Walter's harp, at volume, I think I hallucinated or something. Even my (then) g/f came in from the kitchen (and she was a polite singer/guitarist in the folk/Rondstat vein) where she was making spaghetti, and exclaimed (barely audible) over the wailing, "Who's THAT? That's GREAT!"
I mean, it's THAT vivid a recollection, like when JFK was shot, or something. I literally had to have a drink, a real stiffy, just to calm down. I have no recollection whatever of how the spaghetti tasted. Walter's harp had presence, personality, charisma, everything, but he was still backing Muddy. To me, even tho it was Walter's harp, it was a Muddy Waters record...and I just didn't sense that same level of charisma from Walter's own records, at least not as consistently, that is.
I guess a severe restriction I'm under is both my relative youth (45) and the very low number of live performances that I've been lucky enough to attend. And I haven't had a chance to listen to Walter (i.e., replaced the vinyl w/ CD) since my turntable crapped out more than ten years ago. I'd be very willing to do so, and I mention a bit more on that just below.
But I have a question that's buggin' the crap outta me: The first Little Feat record has a "Fortyfour Blues-How Many More Years" medley that I _read_ somewhere is just a cop on Wolf. I almost have a hard time believing that. The voice is dead-on Wolf, and the harp is absolutely phenomenal. Is it possible that Wolf was in the studio w/ Feat at that time, and is un-credited on the LP? Please, please, forgive me for saying so, but if the latter is true, it strikes me as one of Wolf's all-time great performances. But maybe it's just Lowell George. I have no idea... Speaking of which, I think everybody here is pretty much open to ideas, but one thing that'd be REAL helpful is if somewhere w/r/t a particular harpist specific song tittles (tittle/date/venue/label or whatever) were referenced, as Adam has just done, right above in his post, to a degree, in providing, in the form of query, some excellent examples, i.e., the Wolf titles. I guess I'm trying to say, as a listener, it really helps to have some more specific points of reference, and to me at least, specific recorded song titles might be a "point of departure" or "path of least resistance."
In a nutshell, it's hard to talk about great harpists without talking about great songs, no?
Anyhow, the amount of "info" (to flatter it) I've posted is obviously disproportionate to my relative significance, which amounts to about zero in this context. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Adam's website (and skill) is amazing, his generousity is infectious (I hope) and the tutorials appear to be pretty trick, to say the least.
Fabulous, Adam, I get the impression you've outdone youself, and continue to do so...love the Magic Dick interview and would like to see more of that type of thing in the future if the opportunity presents itself...now back to taking another, closer look at the posted all-time harp greats Top 10 criteria...
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sonvolt13
4 posts
Dec 27, 2008
4:18 AM
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Here's my 2 cents:
Best Tone: Walter Horton
Evidence: "Easy"
Most Influential: Little Walter
Evidence: "Juke", "Blue Lights"
Most Soulful and best vibrato: Paul Butterfield
Evidence: "Just To Be with You" (live), "Driftin and Driftin" (live), Levon Helm and the RCO Allstars
Best Chromatic (blues): William Clarke
Evidence: "Blowin Like Hell"
Best Country Blues: Sonny Terry and Tom Ball (tie)
Most Underated: Mark Ford
Evidence: "Here We Go" (Whole Album)
Best fast player who is still bluesy and soulful:
Jason Ricci
Evidence: "The Way I Hurt Myself"
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kudzurunner
211 posts
Dec 27, 2008
9:27 AM
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You're right about Mark Ford; he should be on my list.
Ditto for Clarke's "Blowin' Like Hell." I love that cut.
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JTThirty
7 posts
Dec 27, 2008
3:04 PM
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Great list and it is essential to listen to them all and grasp just how much variety can be had playing the blues with our humble instrument. Just don't over look this guy---Gary Smith! A Godfather of the blues harp on the West Coast and tone junkie deluxe. Anyway--
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kudzurunner
212 posts
Dec 28, 2008
5:33 AM
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JT:
I've put Gary Smith on the list, and I thank you for the suggestion. I'd certainly heard of him, although never seen him live (I've seen many others on my Honorable Mention list live, and I've seen the six living players on my Top-20 lists live, along with Butterfield, Wells, Carey Bell, William Clarke, and Paul Delay).
Here's a YouTube clip that will introduce him to players who haven't heard (or heard of) him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8BwyIyiZZ8
When I hear Smith, my response is, I suspect, slightly different from many. I hear a guy with great tone who also swings beautifully, but--at least in this YouTube clip--I also hear a guy who, for my taste, has chosen to remain far too completely within the magic circle conjured by Little Walter. In this YT clip, to be sure, he's playing one of LW's songs, but still: why lose yourself in LW, submerge yourself wholly in a preestablished (and brilliant) sound, rather than making clear who Gary Smith is? Billy Branch doesn't submerge his own individuality when he plays "Juke." (See the BB clip from 1982 in my YT favorites, if you don't believe me.)
Of course, by the same lights, I'd rather listen to Smith than 95% of other players who try to "do" LW. He really has it. A brilliant homage. He's as good as they come when it comes to getting "that sound."
Here's another way of saying what I'm saying: one thing we might be looking for in the Honorable Mention list is players who, if still alive, might actually have a shot at making one of the Top-10/20 lists. It takes manifest originality to do that. It should surprise no one to hear me say that guys like Carlos del Junco, Jason Ricci, and Dennis Gruenling have that originality; so do Greg Szlap and Igor Flach. (I'm just picking a handful of obvious names, but there are others on the list.) Dennis is the only one of those five players who can "do" Little Walter as well as Smith, but Dennis also has JUMP TIME, one heck of an original album. In twenty years' time, if not sooner, I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of those five players shows up on whatever Top-20 all-time list some fool harp guru is making up. Guys like Gary Smith came of age in an earlier time, when an ambition to master the LW style was somewhat more valid because many, many (white) players just hadn't figured out how to do that. That deep harp knowledge needed to be reclaimed for the (white) blues world--for whatever the actual living blues world was at that point.
At this point, with overblows and 12th position incoming and all sorts of new stuff in the air--thanks in part to the long shadow of Howard Levy--Little Walter is no longer the ne plus ultra (The Baddest of the Bad), and new ambitions are needed. Or at least that's how I see it.
But of course I'm extrapolating a judgment based on terribly limited exposure to Gary Smith's playing, and that's unfair. It's quite possible that he's got a whole trick-bag and some tonal and melodic innovations that would floor me. I'd be happy to have somebody direct me to relevant evidence.
Edited to add: Kim Wilson is amazingly successful at COMPLETELY submerging his individuality in the ghost of Little Walter in the soundtrack to CADILLAC RECORDS. It's an amazing act of ventriloquism, but one that should surprise nobody. By the same token, Kim's ability to do that is NOT why he makes one of my Top-20 lists (although it is, curiously, why I'd place him in the Second-10 rather than the Top-10). I like Kim for songs like "Jumpin' Bad" and "Down at Antones" and "Learn to Treat Me Right," along with his sideman stuff on Jimmy Rogers LUDELLA. Strong as the ghost of LW is in his playing, he's managed to create a sonic imprint that distinguishes him, and he's pushed out the boundaries of LW-style playing, at least in his best stuff with the T-Birds. He probably has Stevie Ray's Texas-shuffling guitarist brother to thank.....
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2008 5:47 AM
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Tuckster
64 posts
Dec 28, 2008
2:15 PM
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Re: Kim Wilson. "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White" --that put him out of the LW imitator class.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2008 2:16 PM
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HarpMan Freeman
39 posts
Dec 29, 2008
9:44 AM
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Frédéric Yonnet
I am surprised I don't see or hear much talk about Fred Yonnet. His performance in this YouTube is only a taste of how powerful and amazing harmonica player he is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRNDIVJ4n0w
The intensity and energy he puts into playing is incredible.
I don't believe you can say anyone is "The Best", but I would rate Fred Yonnet as one of the top harp players today.
I sure most of you have known about him for a long time. But I would also think some have yet heard of him.
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kudzurunner
215 posts
Dec 29, 2008
9:59 AM
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A wonderful player, absolutely. But is it accurate to call him a blues harmonica player? Has he made a significant contribution to the blues harmonica tradition in particular? His own YouTube channel calls him a jazz player. If you take a look at the very bottom of the Top-10 page, I note that my lists don't include jazz players. Nor do they include Howard Levy or Stevie Wonder; both players would be diminished by inclusion on my list. I sense that Yonnet would, too.
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kudzurunner
216 posts
Dec 29, 2008
10:13 AM
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I'll be honest--and I'll pronounce judgment on my fellow professional, grouchily, in a way that I rarely do: Yonnet can't play the blues, at least not on the basis of the YouTube videos that he links on his own website.
I can't speak for his jazz playing; from all the good press he's received, I suspect it's terrific. But what he does on his diatonic harps in those videos, although fast and energetic, is lacking in depth and the finer points of blues tonality. Stevie Wonder blows him away, frankly, using four holes and a dozen subtle quarter-tones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUsoy822WPw&feature=related
I'll revised what I said in my previous post: "wonderful player" is an overstatement, at least if what we're talking about is blues. (I like him much more in "Little Wing," BTW.) He's an interesting and very talented player; he's got lots of speed and some original ideas. I'm very glad to have him on the scene. I hope he's musician enough to realize that he needs a little more grounding in the blues if he wants to do justice to that particular element of his chosen instrument.
It give me no joy to wax negative on a fellow player like this. I see the delight Yonnet takes in his own music-making and that's a good thing to have out there. Too, I'm aware that the history of aesthetic taste is a history of moldy figs pronouncing, "Ahhhh, that's just fast noise. It's not the real stuff." Trad jazz guys condemned Charlie Parker like this, early on. I'm aware of all that; it conditions the way I talk about fast young players. (I've defended Sugar Blue more than once on this count, in fact.) And I'm suspicious of tastemakers who, as I'm doing here, are investing a lot of energy policing subcultural boundaries--insisting that they can recognize what blues is and declaring that it's lacking in somebody's playing.
All that being said, traditions only live on, and flourish in new and contemporary incarnations, if people strive to be clear about what the core inheritance of those traditions actually is. Microtonal subtlety is one of the three core values of blues harmonica, as I see it. It shows up in many ways. It's harder to produce when playing at high speed, although not impossible; Coltrane had no trouble with that angle. Albert Collins and B. B. King were masters of microtonal subtleties. So was Junior Wells. So, in one fashion or another, are all the players in my two lists. Heck, I was listening to a blues show as I drove home from Memphis last night and the DJ played three songs in a row by Jed Davenport, a Memphis player from the 1920s & 1930s. All the subtleties were there. Blues harmonica developed in part by copying what blues singers were doing. This is part of the deep inheritance of our instrument. Some harmonica players who work primarily in idioms other than blues think that they can skip over the hard work that it takes to master this element of their inheritance. They can't--not if they want to play music that deserves to be called blues. They may be great harmonica players regardless. (I may even relent and include a few of them in my Honorable Mention grab-bag list.) A well-known classical harmonica player who can destroy me in all vectors connected with the classical idiom--speed, complexity, execution, phrasing--is known for playing blues harmonica encores at his big shows. His blues playing, to my ears, is amateurish. Or at least it was when I heard him. Blues may seem to some like simple music, and blues harmonica may seem like the most accessible of all instrumental styles, viewed from certain angles, but the best playing, slow or fast, makes real demands, and they're not always obvious to those who haven't spent the time it takes to getting to know them.
Edited to add: I think highly enough of Yonnet's playing that I've added his name to the note-on-jazz-harmonica at the bottom of the page.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2008 3:12 PM
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HarpMan Freeman
40 posts
Dec 29, 2008
11:11 AM
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I do apologize, for not being sensitive to the main genre theme and intent of your forum. It won't happen again. My Bad.
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